MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31116 posts, RR: 74 Posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3571 times:
American Airlines/AmericanConnection is ending St. Louis-Denver service on 7 April, 2007. A little surprising of a cut, but they probably don't want to bother competing with Frontier and Southwest.
Quickmover From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 3487 times:
Back in TWA days. I remember this route being 6-8 dailys, mostly md80s but usually at least 1 757 or 767 a day. I also remember seeing TWA L1011s out here as well during peak season.
LambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 38 Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3334 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): American Airlines/AmericanConnection is ending St. Louis-Denver service on 7 April, 2007. A little surprising of a cut, but they probably don't want to bother competing with Frontier and Southwest.
At one point post-03 cuts, Denver was up to 6x daily but Frontier and Southwest have turned STL-DEN into a LCC bonanza. Probably a good move.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2852 times:
... Lousy yields and plenty of flights from DEN to ORD and DFW are not a good combination... I wonder if PHL might also be in danger (it's only 1 LCC unless you count US on the route, but it's another AX city that WN has recently entered).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
MrSTL From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 468 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2787 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4): Quoting LambertMan (Reply 3):
Probably a good move.
... Lousy yields and plenty of flights from DEN to ORD and DFW are not a good combination... I wonder if PHL might also be in danger (it's only 1 LCC unless you count US on the route, but it's another AX city that WN has recently entered).
It really is a combo of reduced yields and the operating performance of RJs with 50 seats or less. AA simply does not have the equipment to operate a lot of routes out of STL successfully against WN or F9 for that fact. They are in desperate need of new 70-100 seat airframes and we'll continue to see routes dropped by AA as LCCs add routes. WN, while not widely publicized, is in growth mode in STL, and should they ever decide to add a 90-100 seat fleet type, WN will quickly become the #1 carrier out of STL. The infrastructure, traffic, and location is there for WN to do this successfully tomorrow.
I have often thought AA should acquire an FL or F9 to quickly infuse their fleet with fuel efficient size appropriate airframes. At $100 bl oil they are in a world of hurt with 300+ MD-80s and no 80-100 seat alternatives.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2704 times:
Quote: I have often thought AA should acquire an FL or F9 to quickly infuse their fleet with fuel efficient size appropriate airframes.
Given AA's history of acquisitions - AirCal and Reno Air come to mind - what might seem like a good idea on paper might be end up being the third in the fiery Gotterdamerung trilogy of disastrous mergers.
STL is never going to be a major AA hub. Piece by piece, it is being dismantled, and the planes flying this route will quickly be shifted to more profitable routes. I think routes from STL to other airlines hubs (especially multiple airlines' hubs like DEN) will be the first to go. Logistically, how can an airline compete on a route such as DEN-STL when there's already UA, F9, and WN soon to fly on it? The frequent flyers aren't going to switch, and the business travel isn't up for grabs, so most seats would be filled on a "super-duper cheap fare" basis.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2604 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 4): I wonder if PHL might also be in danger (it's only 1 LCC unless you count US on the route, but it's another AX city that WN has recently entered).
PHL has 7 daily right now on AX, versus 2 daily on WN (soon).
I forgot how many US has.
I would be very shocked if AA pulled out of the PHL market anytime soon.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
EMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 635 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 7): PHL has 7 daily right now on AX, versus 2 daily on WN (soon).
I forgot how many US has.
I would be very shocked if AA pulled out of the PHL market anytime soon.
Alex
Actually, I pulled the current weekday scheds for AA on PHL-STL. There's only 5 dailies, all on EMB140 (RP; 3 of them) or EMB145 (AX; remaining 2) equipment. That's only 232 daily seats each way on weekdays. If WN can fill 2 737's worth, they will match or beat that.
US has 4 dailies; 2 are CRJ200s operated by ZW, with the other two EMB175s operated by RW. That gives them a total of 272 daily seats each way on weekdays.
Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
Surfrider1978 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 292 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2500 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6): STL is never going to be a major AA hub. Piece by piece, it is being dismantled, and the planes flying this route will quickly be shifted to more profitable routes.
The number of flights has been relatively stable for some time (notwithstanding the 3C/ZK saga)... I think STL is about where AA wants it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Frontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 207 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2491 times:
Klwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2340 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6): Logistically, how can an airline compete on a route such as DEN-STL when there's already UA, F9, and WN soon to fly on it
Excellent, excellent point.... This touches the point I have made in another thread that DEN is being saturated. F9, UA, and WN are not the ONLY airlines serving DEN. DEN has all the other airlines that fly to their respective hubs. I am sure there is going to be more restructuring of DEN routes.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 12): Excellent, excellent point.... This touches the point I have made in another thread that DEN is being saturated. F9, UA, and WN are not the ONLY airlines serving DEN. DEN has all the other airlines that fly to their respective hubs. I am sure there is going to be more restructuring of DEN routes.
AA STL service is a bit of an anomaly, though, as by cutting out STL flights, AA travelers lose a grand total of 1 destination (SPI). If NW cut MEM (a similarly-sized hub with a similar level of service), for instance, the net effect on travelers' access to their network would be much larger.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3033 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6): STL is never going to be a major AA hub. Piece by piece, it is being dismantled, and the planes flying this route will quickly be shifted to more profitable routes. I think routes from STL to other airlines hubs (especially multiple airlines' hubs like DEN) will be the first to go. Logistically, how can an airline compete on a route such as DEN-STL when there's already UA, F9, and WN soon to fly on it? The frequent flyers aren't going to switch, and the business travel isn't up for grabs, so most seats would be filled on a "super-duper cheap fare" basis.
I don't think that's true at all. AA didn't arbitrarily decide to cut this route, I'm sure they're getting their asses handed to them by UA, F9 and WN. It's not as if this was a popular, high yielding route that AA just decided one day to cut. It isn't even a mainline route. And there are plenty of routes well served by LCCs that AA still does well on, e.g. LAX and MCO.
STL has been holding it's own for over four years now, barring another 9/11 type of event, I don't see AA's hub at STL significantly expanding or contracting any time soon.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2099 times:
Quoting 777STL (Reply 14): STL has been holding it's own for over four years now, barring another 9/11 type of event, I don't see AA's hub at STL significantly expanding or contracting any time soon.
...which is not to say (and I doubt you intended to say it), that we won't see destinations added, discontinued, changed from Connection to Mainline, and vice-versa. That's how airlines make money... by optimizing their networks.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6867 posts, RR: 29 Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1787 times:
How is AA's contract with its Connection (not Eagle) carriers written?
How is AA able to add / delete routes & aircraft from the contract?
By AA cutting STL-DEN, do they have to redeploy the Connection aircraft or are they able to just drop the capacity?
Nomadic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 398 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1740 times:
Quoting Quickmover (Reply 2): Back in TWA days. I remember this route being 6-8 dailys, mostly md80s but usually at least 1 757 or 767 a day. I also remember seeing TWA L1011s out here as well during peak season.
In the early 1970's TWA actually operated a 747 on the route for a very brief period. Rather than take a non-stop, I routed myself through STL on the way to JFK just to fly the big one.
Atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1725 times:
Quoting Nomadic (Reply 17): In the early 1970's TWA actually operated a 747 on the route for a very brief period. Rather than take a non-stop, I routed myself through STL on the way to JFK just to fly the big one.
Oh see now that is awesome. I sure wish I knew TWA in the 70's, being born in late 80's doesn't help much!!
As for AA, is AA just scared of WN at STL? It really seems any new announcement WN announces that route is dropped or downsized heavily. Exception to DFW of course, though DAL was dropped due to WN as well.
I really am surprised to not see AA try to at least battle it out or is that exactly what AA doesn't want to do?
How long can F9 last then? They did recently drop a 4th STL-DEN did they not?
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1636 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 18): As for AA, is AA just scared of WN at STL? It really seems any new announcement WN announces that route is dropped or downsized heavily.
I don't think dropping DEN was just about WN... the route isn't big enough for 4 carriers. I can't think of any route ex-STL that has 4 carriers on it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
LambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2040 posts, RR: 38 Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1604 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19): I don't think dropping DEN was just about WN... the route isn't big enough for 4 carriers. I can't think of any route ex-STL that has 4 carriers on it.
Another example of American's lax, but understandable approach to St. Louis. Three routes that come to mind, mainly Philly, Atlanta, and Denver, that probably should have had mainline on it in addition to supplemental regional flying post 03 cuts. American undercut the demand and other carriers moved in.
It's good for the flying public in terms of fares, but frustrating to see our number one carrier so passive.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1584 times:
Quoting LambertMan (Reply 20): Three routes that come to mind, mainly Philly, Atlanta, and Denver, that probably should have had mainline on it in addition to supplemental regional flying post 03 cuts. American undercut the demand and other carriers moved in.
I'm not sure I agree (though as I said above, I think PHL might be in danger of being cut). The AX routes with competition (CLT is another one, though it's not exactly LCC competition) are in a very tricky spot. As with most routes at STL, AA inherited TW's loyal fliers in St. Louis and those who used to count on making connections at STL. Of course, many of those who once connected at STL are now connecting at ORD or DFW for far more options. On routes with big or captive local audiences, it's all right that fewer connections are routed over STL; capacity and frequency cuts can compensate.
In smaller cities, AA's in a real tough spot... trash yields with a lot of capacity or enjoy good yields while they last and wait for someone else to trash the yields (arguably, a third choice is offering uncompetitive frequency on larger aircraft). Much as I'd love to see otherwise, it really seems like a no-win situation for AA, especially when they are competing with one or more carriers with a much larger hub on the other end.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Atrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5613 posts, RR: 54 Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1528 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19): I don't think dropping DEN was just about WN... the route isn't big enough for 4 carriers. I can't think of any route ex-STL that has 4 carriers on it.
Your right, I started to say LAX was one but forgot F9 had dropped it, and now its down to 2, WN and AA.
ATL, PHL, MCO, DEN, CHI are the cities thate have three airlines on the route correct?
Alex
[Edited 2008-02-24 14:29:23]
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
FlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1494 times:
Quoting Super80DFW (Reply 1): What would you rather fly on, ER4, or A319 with DirecTV?
Personally I'd go with the ERJ-145. I'm 6'4 but love the window seat. The ER4 gives me both the window view and the aisle seat at the same time. And I don't need DirectTV for a flight from STL to DEN. Just give me a window seat, and I'll bring a book in case its cloudy. (Yes, I know I'm in a very small minority there).
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21228 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1489 times:
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 22): ATL, PHL, MCO, DEN, CHI are the cities thate have three airlines on the route correct?
Yes, though if you want to combine Tampa-St. Pete-Sarasota into a 'city,' it has three carriers also... as with IAD/DCA/BWI and LGA/EWR/JFK (barely).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 WesternA318: Also a bunch of 727's as well. Although DEN was one of the first cities to lose 72S service in favor of a Mad Dog/757 combo, at the most I think it w
26 WA707atMSP: I think on this website you might actually be in the MAJORITY. I'll take an ERJ over an A319 any day, even though I'm 6'4", too, because on the ERJ,
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From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31116 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 1637 posts, 
... Lousy yields and plenty of flights from DEN to ORD and DFW are not a good combination... I wonder if PHL might also be in danger (it's only 1 LCC unless you count US on the route, but it's another AX city that WN has recently entered).
From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 1787 posts, 
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