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AP - DL/NW Deal "in Jeopardy" Due To Pilot Issues  
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13518 posts, RR: 62
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16510 times:
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23232995/

Fair-use excerpt:

Delta-Northwest combination in ‘jeopardy’?
Pilots unions for carriers unable to reach seniority deal, sources say


Associated Press
updated 1 hour, 48 minutes ago

Two people close to combination talks between Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines say the $20 billion deal is in "serious jeopardy" because of an inability by the pilots unions from both companies to reach an agreement on blending their seniority lists.

The people asked not to be named because of the sensitive stage of the talks. They say the pilots unions have agreed on a comprehensive joint contract, but they are unable to agree on how seniority for the 12,000 pilots would work under a combined carrier.

The people said late Tuesday that the pilot talks are expected to continue Wednesday, but if no agreement is reached, the combination of the two airlines is in "serious jeopardy."



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
194 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4537 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16416 times:

Good. Let it fail. This merger idea is a terrible idea anyway. At least from a consumer standpoint. This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2534 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16331 times:

So if DL/NW falls through will the pilot talks between NW/CO be any better? In all mergers the employees are the ones that are going to take a hit. The pilots are the only ones that make the news. They have the big pay checks and usually the same union on both sides.

I find it hard to understand whay ALPA can't come up with a Master Senority list system. Each pilot would get credit for each day flown under an ALPA contract. Since US pilots think bigger airplanes require hire higher pay, weight each day to the size of the plane. Start out at the smallest ALPA covered aircraft, say 19 pax. Each day flown in a 19 pax airplane counts as one day. Everything goes up incrementally from there. The more days you fly, with the biggest possible pax load gives you the most senority. Any flying outside of an ALPA contract doesn't count.

That is a way too fair system and it would never work. What do I know? I'm just a mechanic that can work on any aircraft they can fly. I also get paid the same no matter which one I work on.


User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 16285 times:



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 3):
I find it hard to understand whay ALPA can't come up with a Master Senority list system. Each pilot would get credit for each day flown under an ALPA contract. Since US pilots think bigger airplanes require hire higher pay, weight each day to the size of the plane. Start out at the smallest ALPA covered aircraft, say 19 pax. Each day flown in a 19 pax airplane counts as one day. Everything goes up incrementally from there. The more days you fly, with the biggest possible pax load gives you the most senority. Any flying outside of an ALPA contract doesn't count.

I agree with you. A Master Seniority list does make too much sense. I like your methodology for how to blend it as well. The problem is going back and figuring out all of this data since most pilots have been flying much longer than the current data bases that track such info. Also, many pilots do not keep their logbooks up to date as much as they should. Also, with different configurations of airplanes a 757 at one airline could have more seats than another so does the pilot with more premium seating get less points, or worse yet the 757 cargo driver who gets none since he has no seats? I think it does need to be addressed but the politics of the system will doom it.

One article is saying that a few members of the NW negotiating committee are wanting to put NW pilots ahead of thousands of younger DL pilots. Sort of sounds like they are in there touting date of hire and super seniority. If so it would seem that they have learned nothing of history as this mentality never works. The UsAirways east guys proved it again just as the ZW guys proved it 30 years ago with the Mississippi Valley merger. In both cases the arbitrator ruled strongly against those touting doh. It will be interesting to see if an agreement can be reached. I am hoping not and that the whole thing falls apart.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 16263 times:



Quoting 727forever (Reply 3):

It will be interesting to see if an agreement can be reached. I am hoping not and that the whole thing falls apart.

I am surprised you feel that way. What would be so bad about a DL/NW merger? Oil reached $100/bbl yesterday so I don't think it's going to get any easier for six legacies running around. Seems to me they're a good fit.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16207 times:
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I hope they can work things out and get the deal done, but when you consider the combined fleet, i have my doubts:

747-400-NW
777-DL
A330-300-NW
A330-200-NW
767-400-DL
767-300-DL
757-300-NW
757-200-Both
A320-NW
737-800-DL
A319-NW
MD-88-DL
DC-9-50-NW
DC-9-40-NW
DC-9-30-NW

if the pay scale is based partly on aircraft size flown, there's a major problem, with the exception of the DC9s, 752s and maybe the 738/A320, the incoming NW pilots come in flying larger aircraft than their DL counterparts. How does the CEO of the acquiring airline explain to his 777 pilots that a whole group of pilots are coming in flying a larger aicraft type, and thus expect more money? likewise, how do you explain to an NW 747-400 captain that he's going to be below a DL 777 captain on the payscale even though he flies a larger aircraft? If you tell a senior 747-400 captain that he'll be making less than a senior 777 captain, he's going to say "BS to that!" likewise if you tell a senior 777 captain he'll be making less than a 744 captain from the airline being acquired you get the same response, "BS to that, we were here first!"

On the issue of seniority, the easiest solution is the one nobody's likely thought of, instead of creating one "master list" make seniority type specific, so that you have all of the 747-400 pilots on one list broken down in terms of captains and first officers, all the 777 pilots on one list and so forth, based on the date of certification to fly that type. All of that information should be kept on file by either HR or Flight Operations. when a pilot upgrades to a new type, he goes to the bottom of that type seniority list.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15978 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 5):
On the issue of seniority, the easiest solution is the one nobody's likely thought of, instead of creating one "master list" make seniority type specific, so that you have all of the 747-400 pilots on one list broken down in terms of captains and first officers, all the 777 pilots on one list and so forth, based on the date of certification to fly that type. All of that information should be kept on file by either HR or Flight Operations. when a pilot upgrades to a new type, he goes to the bottom of that type seniority list.

Thats pretty much the solution that the US Arbitrator came up with on combining the HP/US lists. And the East pilots were so unhappy with that, that now they are trying to show ALPA the boot and start a new union called USAPA. There is no one solution to please everybody, and these guys are way too selfish.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15890 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 5):
On the issue of seniority, the easiest solution is the one nobody's likely thought of, instead of creating one "master list" make seniority type specific, so that you have all of the 747-400 pilots on one list broken down in terms of captains and first officers, all the 777 pilots on one list and so forth, based on the date of certification to fly that type. All of that information should be kept on file by either HR or Flight Operations. when a pilot upgrades to a new type, he goes to the bottom of that type seniority list.
.

The problem with that idea is you can't change the order on the existing list of each airline. Pilots don't always check out on larger airplanes in seniority order. Different pilots have different ideas on how to use their seniority. One pilot will be willing to sit reserve in a crappy crash pad in New York in order to be a captain, while someone senior to him may be using his seniority to be in the right seat of a 767 flying to Europe once a week. No pilot group would agree to a dozen seperate lists based on each equipment type. Each company has one seniority list, and you carry your seniority with you no matter what aircraft you are flying. I am a captain on the MD88 and I have flown with FO's who are senior to me. When they check out as captain they will be senior to me as a captain. I knew it when I bid captain, they knew it when they chose to stay a senior FO.

There will never be a master seniority list at ALPA. It's far too late to get that.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15749 times:

In all honesty, the deal WON'T be stopped due to both pilot groups "not being able to come to an agreement". Not of NW and DL BOD has something to say about it. Do you guys actually think they would have come to an agreement pre-merger? What tie-up ever has? If both companies are really serious about bringing both together and both BOD are backing, it WILL happen.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineNWADTWFA From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 162 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15729 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
747-400-NW
777-DL
A330-300-NW
A330-200-NW
767-400-DL
767-300-DL
757-300-NW
757-200-Both
A320-NW
737-800-DL
A319-NW
MD-88-DL
DC-9-50-NW
DC-9-40-NW
DC-9-30-NW

You didn't mention 747-200 which NWA pilots fly for cargo and some charters. Also what is not mentioned is number of each type of aircraft. Mix with that amount of pilots that it takes to fly those specific aircraft to their destinations and then add in where seniority is for each group relative to each aircraft and you have a mess on your hands.

I think it was a bit premature for DL/NWA to believe that the could get this all worked out in a matter of a week or two before they announced a merger. How long has it take for US/HP?

Cheers,

NWADTWFA


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15690 times:

For seniority can't they just do it by time spent working for the company? So a DL pilot who has worked there for 5 years becomes the same seniority level as a NW pilot working for 5 years? It doesn't seem that hard, its a merger not a buy out so actually merge the seniority scale.

As for pay rates they could merge that to... While DL pilots seem to make more money (based on willflyforfood.cc) youu could merge the fleet, in this order from highest paid to lowest (based on aircraft size then payment would be based on seniority)

747,777,787,A330/764,767/757,A320/737,DC9/MD80

NW pilots while on NW planes would make the same as before, DL pilots on DL planes would make same as before, then if they wanted a 764 captain could be trained and move over to a A330 if he wanted to and earn that pay category. After some time the pay scale for the planes would have to merge over and be raised obviously.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8031 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15671 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.

You don't understand the industry at all (or economics for that matter) if you think that's a bad thing.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15619 times:

Wow all the what happens to this hub, that hub, have all been in vain.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15606 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 10):
For seniority can't they just do it by time spent working for the company? So a DL pilot who has worked there for 5 years becomes the same seniority level as a NW pilot working for 5 years? It doesn't seem that hard, its a merger not a buy out so actually merge the seniority scale.

The pilots would not go for that because it would mean somewhere along the line one of them would have to move down, As I have said before, they will give up their first born before moving down one seniority spot.


User currently offlineWAH64D From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 966 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 15575 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
Good. Let it fail. This merger idea is a terrible idea anyway. At least from a consumer standpoint. This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.

 checkmark  Absolutely correct. Delta, I can take or leave but I'd hate to see NW going down the tubes. Lets hope this deal falls to pieces.



I AM the No-spotalotacus.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7533 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15542 times:

These are the same people that said it wasn't clear what role steenland would have in the merger, yet its been known for a few days now that he would have a seat on the BOD and thats it.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 13):
The pilots would not go for that because it would mean somewhere along the line one of them would have to move down, As I have said before, they will give up their first born before moving down one seniority spot.

Well thats the plan as of now, since there will be a 2-4 year freeze on each airlines aircraft and with no capacity reduction then it shouldn't be a problem, sure NW guys will see the benefits more than DL's because NW guys will get the pay raise, and they also have some older guys, keep in mind that a lot of DL pilots took early retirement.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15508 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
This merger idea is a terrible idea anyway. At least from a consumer standpoint. This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.

Newsflash: withh $100/barrel oil, prices are going up no matter what the merger scenario is or what happens. Get used to it.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 5):
make seniority type specific

For all the reasons already enumerated, that is a terrible idea. Far too arduous to manage, oversee, impractical to boot. Master one seniority list, integrate both carriers. Training costs are already high enough--mitigate that and the snowball effect as much as you can by not falsely incentivizing pilots to jump to a new ship because of a higher hourly rate all the time.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15511 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 10):
So a DL pilot who has worked there for 5 years becomes the same seniority level as a NW pilot working for 5 years? It doesn't seem that hard, its a merger not a buy out so actually merge the seniority scale.

It's not that easy. you will still have Delta pilots that will be moved down the list if you chose that "simple" method is used.

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 14):
Absolutely correct. Delta, I can take or leave but I'd hate to see NW going down the tubes. Lets hope this deal falls to pieces.

Keep hoping. If both companies have truly decided to make the deal work, a merger announcement will be made weather the pilots come to an agreement or not. What makes this deal so special? Like I said, how in the world can anyone think a deal will be broken because the pilot group can't come to an agreement. That will be worked out weather Delta or NW pilots like the outcome or not.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2228 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15510 times:

This is shades of the AC and Canadian merger. The senority list idea sounds fine until AC pilots found out Canadian pilots were bumping them in the list. This type of problem has long legs. Anyway you look at it someone loses.

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15450 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.

You don't understand the industry at all (or economics for that matter) if you think that's a bad thing.

It is a bad thing. This merger isnt as bad as some other proposals like AA/CO or DL/UA...but not good none the less.


User currently offlineTvnwz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15348 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 6):
Thats pretty much the solution that the US Arbitrator came up with on combining the HP/US lists. And the East pilots were so unhappy with that, that now they are trying to show ALPA the boot and start a new union called USAPA. There is no one solution to please everybody, and these guys are way too selfish.

A new union will not change a thing since it will inherit the old contract with all its arbitration awards.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
This merger will do absolutely nothing for the traveling public but raise prices.

You don't understand the industry at all (or economics for that matter) if you think that's a bad thing.

The lowest possible cost for your service always makes good economic sense.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4746 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15198 times:

I doubt the deal will fail on this issue.


Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21476 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15175 times:



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 2):
I find it hard to understand whay ALPA can't come up with a Master Senority list system. Each pilot would get credit for each day flown under an ALPA contract.

The world would be a better place for pilots if they did this. Job portability is the ultimate bargaining chip. The reason it doesn't happen is the short sightedness of the pilots themselves. After all, if this happened, sure it would make it easier to move to a new, higher paying job, but it also means a pilot could come into your airline and move you down the list. How dare they...  Wink

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 12):
Wow all the what happens to this hub, that hub, have all been in vain.

Hmmm. I've seen these negotiations before, and whenever the pilots go public about this stuff, it's usually that they are very close to an agreement, and want to publicly flex their power. Air Canada aircraft order delays, HA A350 "cancelation" etc. All power plays, but ultimately sorted out. This will be sorted out.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15144 times:



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 5):
if the pay scale is based partly on aircraft size flown, there's a major problem, with the exception of the DC9s, 752s and maybe the 738/A320, the incoming NW pilots come in flying larger aircraft than their DL counterparts.

The problem there is that DL brings many more high paying large aircraft to the table than NW does. It also flys nothing as small as the DC-9/A319 which make up a large part of NW's fleet. DL retired many 737-200/300s in the last several years that would have been comparable to the DC-9. Lastly, the 747 at NW pays less than the 777 at DL and NW wages across the spectrum are about 10% less than at DL. There are many complicated issues to solve.

There has never been an airline merger anywhere near this size and they want this done on a compressed time line. An equity stake has been offered to get it done quickly but smaller mergers have taken years to resolve seniority and many times have to resort to an arbitrated settlement. My bet would be this ends in arbitration as well.


User currently offlineMCOAviationFan From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14932 times:

Why has it always been that pilots are paid specific to the aircraft they fly? Would it not be simpler to pay based on their time with the company. A one year pilot gets paid so much, ten year so much, etc. regardless of what aircraft they fly. Then a pilot could choose whichever aircraft he prefers in seniority order and stay on it. There would be no need to move every few years to a different aircraft because of differing pay rates. This would also reduce training costs significantly for the airline.

25 LTBEWR : The reality is if they don't find some way to resolve the 'seniority' issues, many pilots may have no job at all if this deal fails. Seniority, even i
26 Post contains images Mattteo : Hi! I'm a flight attendant working for AF. I'm just wondering if DL/NW have ever thought of a merger like AF and KLM did, that's to say to keep the 2
27 Tugger : And that is a problem when both sides demand to "win". Unless you happen to be an employee of said company and want a raise. Tug
28 727forever : There are a lot of comments being made here from people who don't really understand the issues of seniority and just how essential it is to a pilot an
29 Reltney : News in the airline industry reported in papers and tv are rarely more than 70% accurate at best but keep in mind, it is a buy out not a merger. The n
30 Surfdog75 : The companies are not going to let this deal fall apart over this. They would like employee cooperation because it allows them to reap the benfits of
31 Manfredj : As far as I'm concerned, he's absolutey correct. What is this merger going to do? Take airplanes out of the sky? No. Create more jobs? No. Ultimately
32 Indy : I understand it completely. Management lacks the balls to raise prices to cover expenses so they want to create situations where they have monopolies
33 Isitsafenow : Of course not. That is not the idea of this merger or ANY merger. A merger is to strength the company, not benefit its clients. You get an A in econ.
34 BOS2LAF : To that I say, lifes a b*tch in an industry that lives and dies by the seniority list. People who take a job in this industry are well aware that the
35 N328KF : AF and KL were only kept separate because of separate national interests, chiefly those of the Dutch government and the KLM labor force. Note that th
36 LongHauler : Huh? They were??? There is no Canadian pilot senior to any pilot at Air Canada that was hired after him. Conversely, there is no Air Canada pilot jun
37 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : please, Do you really think that A) DL will let this deal fall over the DALPA? B) not go back out and talk to UA? ether way NW will be gone. DL is go
38 Junction : Well, which is it?
39 FlyPNS1 : Actually, it's the consumer's willingness to pay that sets prices, so in fact it is your fault to a certain degree. Many consumers want fares that ar
40 FlyASAGuy2005 : They are being very choice on words. At this point, I honestly don't know. It's the NEWS who keeps saying that Delta is BUYING Northwest or proposing
41 N328KF : It sounds as if Delta is the initiator in this sense. However, I would be very surprised if Delta paid a very large premium (if any at all) for North
42 Commavia : Frankly, I don't see how this "jeopardy" of "pilot issues" impacts the prospect of a Delta-Northwest merger at all. Some thoughts: 1. First and foremo
43 Evan767 : Does it really matter who gets paid more? No. As long as the pilots are making the same or more than they did with the previous company, I can't see
44 Transpac787 : Absolutely it does, and reply 5 is right on in his assessment. You obviously don't work in the industry then. Neither DL or NW employees want to merg
45 Surfdog75 : So DL pilots get to take a paycut to bring NW pilots a raise? It's more likely you'll see NW brought up to DL rates and then a small increase for the
46 SLCUT2777 : One thing to realize is the NW pilots not only are older, but have already some of them been through two mergers, while the older DL pilots might reme
47 Justloveplanes : This is to be expected. Pilots are just using the seniority ruse to get better terms for them at consolidation time. They will use it as leverage to
48 Commavia : I concur - upward creep in pilot pay rates will be inevitable. What remains to be seen is whether Delta's management will be able and/or willing to s
49 WorldTraveler : A couple observations and questions. DL does have some skewed seniority numbers in its pilot ranks because of the mass exodus of DL pilots prior to BK
50 Commavia : Well, looking back through history, unions are no stranger to "short-sighted." They do it well. Unions have done great things, and made meaningful an
51 Like2flyguy : I agree. In a fair "deal", both sides have to give up something to accomplish something for the greater whole. One has to look at the big picture, an
52 Isitsafenow : I would have to say the ones that encourage merger are the ones with a little higher education then the ones that are against the combo of carriers.
53 KingAir200 : And there's an easy explanation for that. In today's society, the folks with higher education are, in general, more valued by corporations. So in thi
54 Rwy04LGA : As a DL employee. I want this merger. (Baruch College class of 1982 BA)
55 NWAESC : Not sure where/who you are talking to, but I have yet to run into one fellow co-worker who's for it.
56 EXAAUADL : Jjust becareful cuz you might get infected with their attitude towards work
57 Skibum9 : 727forever - You aren't going to believe this, but I think you will agree with me here.... People here think it is as simple as merging lists based o
58 KingAir200 : Oh please. That sounds like something from a zombie movie. "Watch out for those NWA employees! They'll bite you and infect you with the sickness!"
59 Cingularity : Yeah, I hope the deal dies a quick death myself. I know fleets aren't the only thing to consider, but I can't think of a worse combination for Delta.
60 Flyingcat : While many harp on things getting bumpy I am amazed that by all reports the only hangup is the seniority list. To date, I have not seen union negotiat
61 Ikramerica : So basically those now most senior pilots earned their status by not jumping ship? Why wouldn't NW be in the same boat? They were in BK at the same t
62 Patches : Can sombody out there tell me what a 777, 747, 767, 330, 757 pilot at NW and delta make? This has been talked about millions of times but everybody br
63 Lono : excellent !!!! I do... the pilots at DL/NW will have to work together for this merger to be a success I agree.... no bucks... no buck rogers....
64 Bucky707 : it's not a simple answer because the amount of hours flown by individual pilots varies widely. We have some guys/gals who max out every month, and we
65 Alias1024 : This could get messy, so I'm surprised that they sound as close as they are. Consider that DL has new-hire FOs flying 767s, while it takes probably 10
66 D328 : Everyone just bitches, I feel its more the union wanting to cause drama and not doing something that benefits the compan as a whole, get over it or se
67 D328 : Would not let me edit something in but: Pilots should stay in their aircraft type and if they have to go down a type then they should keep the same pa
68 Rwy04LGA : My work ethic is immune to any possible infection from anything a NW employee might bring. I would infect THEM with MY work ethic!!
69 Bucky707 : what is skewed about it? Doesn't matter when he/she way hired, the number one pilot at Delta is still the number one pilot at Delta. How they got
70 WorldTraveler : I'm not passing judgment one way or the other but it is a fact that DL lost hundreds of senior pilots to early retirements because they were trying t
71 Flyhigh77 : Doesnt the pay scale at UA go 747/777 and then 767/757 -- couldnt an arguement be made for what could be done with NW/DL?
72 Breaker1011 : So friends, at this point, I have suddenly lost sight as to the benefits of a DL/NW merger for either company or for shareholders. Someone help me see
73 WorldTraveler : there's half the answer. And opportunities for growth on the Pacific are very large. There is no way that either DL or NW could come up with the same
74 Breaker1011 : I hope you are right man. I agree with 100% of what you say, but "future value" of the airline business doesn't seem to be on the minds of many Wall S
75 Coronado : Reply 3, posted Wed Feb 13 2008 23:21:34 your local time (6 days 23 hours 22 minutes ago) and read 515 times: On 2/13 I wrote on a KLM./AF investment
76 Reltney : Easy, I am a Delta pilot. I attend our meetings they hold in the ATL pilot lounge on wednesdays. We are told by our management team it is a BUYOUT. P
77 Chgoflyer : Bus drivers all grabbing for the biggest piece of the pie.
78 DeltaL1011man : and HP/US isn't working? looks like it to me. They are making money and well HP is no longer an airline. the hole point of this was to make the merge
79 Ikramerica : Yes, I also assumed that DL was buying NW, not merging with NW.
80 727forever : You significantly under estimate what ALPA can do when it gets behind something. Despite the disfunction within the organization, ALPA has strong inf
81 Alitalia744 : If respective company and enthusiast pride is put aside, and we view this potential transaction from a business standpoint - it is a win-win-win - for
82 Bobnwa : NWA pilots did not have the opportunity to get a lump sum payment like the Delta pilots did. The NWA pilot pension was frozen and not terminated like
83 N328KF : None of those terms matter. You can call it "holding hands" for all I care. What matters is who holds what percentage of the shares, board seats and
84 Isitsafenow : ...and you underestimate the power of two major corp board of directors, their connections, friends and capital hill folks they have in their pockets
85 DLPMMM : Seems that the rhetoric from the press has been overblown. A quote from NWALPA spokesman Matt Coons: "We're very much behind the deal," Coons said. "W
86 CIDflyer : I agree, Typical media overblowing the situation to grab a headline.
87 Junction : That's what I thought. Why is ALPA treating it like a merger?
88 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Nice. Not true. Current Delta pilot whom is a friend of my Dad is in his late 50's. NW: (all capped pay) 747-$179, 330-$161, 757-$144 DL: (all capped
89 Bobnwa : What are your definitions of buyout and merger?
90 Junction : True, but it seems DL is actually being very generous in allowing the NW pilot group to take part in a process which allows any objections whatsoever
91 DLPMMM : There is no real difference between a merger and a buy-out. It is combining two companies into one. The people trying to label it a buy-out are just
92 Junction : It seems to me a merger would mean both side have level influence, while a buyout would be dictated primarily from one side. It’s my understanding
93 Gigneil : You are wrong, and they are either misleading you or you just misunderstand. Delta has nothing with which to BUY NW. In terms of value, the airlines
94 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : But as someone else said, wouldn't a "buy-out" still be a merger ? Kinda like Clorox and Bleach? Ok, maybe bad example but you see where i'm trying t
95 Junction : Got it - thanks. That would be a flat out merger then.
96 SEPilot : The problem with this concept is that the expectations (and assignments) vary considerably from airline to airline; this is especially sticky when a
97 Ikramerica : Yes they do. Or has the ALPA played it well? Who talked to the media and for what reason? Did ALPA do it just to remind DL and NW how important they
98 Tl8490 : Why is it you only appear when you have something negative to say about Delta???????
99 Ikramerica : A smaller company can buy a larger one. As for the intent of investors, if they believe that DL is run better and would be best served by being the do
100 Post contains images Isitsafenow : An example here is America West buying USAirways.. In the past it was Texas Air(Texas International formally Trans Texas) buying Continental. safe
101 Lono : I am saying if the pilot groups of both carriers are not behind this then it could get ugly.... when pilots are forced to do things funny things star
102 N328KF : Give him a break. It's not a negative point, it's factual. Very few of the airlines have assets worth substantially more than their debt. For what it
103 WorldTraveler : Bob, I am not at all saying that NW is not doing very well to Europe. They are doing well but that’s not the point. The point is that KLM has been
104 Bobnwa : World Traveler, does the above quote mean you are not bad mouthing Northwest to Europe. Answer yes or no on these questions. Did Northwest beat Delta
105 Gigneil : I'm one of the most prolific posters on this site. Are you only reading Delta threads? My statements are factually based. Delta cannot buy NW, the me
106 DeltaL1011man : Bob NW flys to 4 (LHR will be 5) different airports in Europe DL flys to 35 different airports in Europe. I think that is what WT is trying to say. N
107 IADCA : Um, adding Northwest doesn't help achieve any of those goals. It doesn't hurt them either, but DL's cooperation with AF can be effected with or witho
108 Gigneil : That, an EU open skies are for the US and the EU. The rest of the world doesn't necessarily have open skies with both France and the Netherlands. NS
109 EA CO AS : I don't think it's a stretch to say that easily 75% of those people hyperventilating over this proposed merger are doing so precisely because of the
110 IADCA : Hey man, I'm not a NW homer by any stretch (if you meant to imply that). I've got no dog in this fight, which makes it pretty easy to see the ridicul
111 WorldTraveler : Bob, you are missing the point. Reread what I wrote in entirety and you'll see that I am saying nothing about NW's current performance over the Atlant
112 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : It's actually 5 airports, 6 after LHR is added. And it doesn't really matter how many airports you fly to, but how many flights you fly. NW flies Tra
113 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : Wow....that is the most biased, fanboy BS I have read on here in awhile. Is it not NW that is much more profitable currently than DL? Isn't it DL tha
114 IADCA : Then you could have written ONE sentence instead of all the completely irrelevant DL-boosting platitudes. You will see that in my post I acknowledged
115 WorldTraveler : You can say what you want, PHX to whatever, but you might do well to remember that it is NW's board largely representing its former creditors are the
116 CV880 : Well, yes and no......IF the DL/NW merger happens, then AF/KL will operate as one entity, as the US Gov't is the only stumbling block to that now. Fr
117 WorldTraveler : Amen, someone gets it. I do believe, though that the agreement between KL and AF to operate separately was longer than 3 years and I think expires in
118 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : World whatever....I am not saying that it is not in the interest of NW shareholders or the BOD. It will definitely benefit NW shareholders and credit
119 Post contains images CV880 : It will be 2009 before the DL/NW honeymoon gets started.
120 IADCA : Right, but DL-NW is not the only thing preventing AF and KL from closing. Additionally, there are indications that the US authorities (DOT, not DOJ)
121 Like2flyguy : I've read your comments and agree with a lot of what ALL of you are bringing to the table here. However, these two "quotes" struck me the most. I fin
122 EA CO AS : No, I was agreeing with you - it's primarily the NW homers that are howling over this potential merger, and it's likely that they'd be giving it a he
123 MD-90 : So why is it not as profitable, despite having a larger network? Could it *gasp* be that "bigger isn't always better?" It is? It hasn't even been a y
124 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : Yes. NW is. Not really debatable.
125 Ocracoke : Of course it's debatable. "Much more"? What the heck is the definition of "much more?" That apple is much more green than the other one. My left sock
126 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : Thanks for the semantics lesson. NW is more profitable than DL. Without even getting in to the margins (which is the much more relative number and ev
127 727forever : Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea to have total revenue not percentages of revenue versus cost? The larger network creates greater revenue
128 Like2flyguy : I disagree with your comments here. I feel that counteracting with negative comments like these is just as poisonous to your airilne as those people
129 DeltaL1011man : Wait this is no true with all of DL's options they could have 20 77Ls by the end of 2010 or 2011 plus the 8 77Es. So DL could build up Asia quickly i
130 727forever : You are correct in that negativity doesn't solve anything. My concern is "if" these feelings are popular. The way the seniority negotiations are goin
131 Panamair : No, it's simply because DL's growth in its transatlantic network has been relatively large (capacity growth in the double digits in 2006 and again in
132 Indy : It is 100% the fault of the airlines. They set the prices. I don't. I pay what they charge. If I can't afford it I don't fly. It is that simple. Then
133 DashTrash : A master seniority list would be nice. My question to you, is being a pilot for a major airline, where are you going to put the regional guys? Maybe
134 WorldTraveler : I might also remind you that the reason NW is generating higher profits is because their employees are paid less which should be obvious from the fac
135 Ikramerica : Does anyone think that DL and NW are waiting until after the Texas and Ohio primaries before announcing anything, in order to make sure this doesn't b
136 Post contains images Ikramerica : And yes, I know CVG is in Kentucky, but...
137 WorldTraveler : I think DL will announce it regardless of any other factors.... the presidential candidates don't have any influence in how this pans out but the curr
138 Ikramerica : They are all Senators. They have a say. And because they are running for president, they are also going to run their mouths off if it makes any sense
139 WorldTraveler : no they don't. Mergers in any industry are decided by the Justice Department, not the Senate. They can run their mouths but it won't change a thing.
140 Post contains links Indy : There is an article dated Feb 21st that says otherwise when it comes to the DL-NW merger. "Delta-Northwest: A merger that won't work." http://money.c
141 WorldTraveler : yes, notice how the naysaying articles all showed up today after word about the seniority integration issues came out? as for the article, it contains
142 Indy : The article quoted the old DL boss when he called the US takeover attempt as anti-competitive. Same applies to this merger. That is the very reason t
143 WorldTraveler : which goes to show that you know virtually nothing about the US airline industry because if you did you would know that DL and US are THE airlines in
144 Aerohottie : Personally I think they should fire all of the pilots when the merger happens, cancel the old contracts outright. Create new contracts and set-up a ne
145 Indy : I'd call ATL/MEM and DTW/CVG far more anti-competitive than ATL-CLT. It is even deeper when you figure in MSP, the part ownership of YX with a 47% ma
146 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : but this isn't anti-competitive ATL/CLT JFK/PHL LGA/LGA DCA/DCA BOS/BOS shall I keep going? Indy just because your mad about NW becoming DL doesn't m
147 Indy : And the point of this is what?
148 Ikramerica : They may be ultimately granted by Justice, but they aren't "decided" by them alone. Not in any fashion. They call anti-trust hearings in the House an
149 WorldTraveler : they can demand all they want but they still have NO legal authority to stop it. Do you honestly think the Bush Adminstration cares what a bunch of C
150 Indy : Yeah it really worked out well for US and PIT.
151 Breaker1011 : My Trijet friend L1011man is just demonstrating the more extensive true route overlap of a US/DL combination versus NW/DL. It's not as valid a compar
152 Breaker1011 : What happened to PIT was going to happen to PIT with or without the HP merger. It's not like HP brought the state of Penn. TWO same-airline hubs - US
153 Indy : What they do have however is the ability to keep out reasonable competition in DTW, CVG, MEM, MSP, SLC and to an extent ATL since ATL is pretty much
154 Breaker1011 : That's a reasonable point Indy - I absolutely hear ya. It's an interesting study as DL and NW are the two US airlines that have really concentrated th
155 Indy : CVG and MEM poses a huge problem for the airline. Do they maintain hubs in these smaller markets especially when larger hubs are so close by for them
156 Gigneil : Well, almost. Detroit is bigger than most of those cities - all of them except ORD, LAX, PHL, and EWR. NS
157 Breaker1011 : Exactly - that's why I think a ring side seat over the next 2 years will be worth having. Thanks Gig - I think you get my point though, whether I'm r
158 WorldTraveler : and the issue with PIT was that it was not drawn down appropriately so that US maintained its presence. US' PIT capacity could have been reduced in a
159 Breaker1011 : You're quoting me here, but your reply doesn't make sense. You know, I supporting what you've said on here WT, why always so defensive or do you just
160 IADCA : They've got plenty of legal authority. They can change antitrust laws, change the scope of DOT review, change the FAA authorizing statutes to require
161 WorldTraveler : you're grasping at straws trying to prove your point. Sure they could change the laws etc but it wouldn't affect DL-NW or UA-CO unless they get it ou
162 Indy : Despite what some a.netters believe this move is strictly anti-competitive and FYI congress has absolutely the power to do something about it since t
163 Jetlanta : And we can see what an impact they have had on steroid use. My friend, no offense, but you are either incredibly naive or just being obstinate. Certa
164 Indy : In case you've missed it the investigations have had a huge impact. Ask guys like Rafael Palmeiro who basically had to just go away. Or any of the ot
165 Par13del : Well until this deal is actually announced I don't believe that you will hear anything from Congress about it, as for the particulars in the way it is
166 Jetlanta : Concern is not opposition. You'll notice that pretty much only Oberstar has publicly come out four square against the deal. If both companies agree t
167 Indy : We shall see. I know I plan to file an objection and I will encourage others to do so as well. I will forward the objection to our congressmen from I
168 NWA757300 : Does anyone here think that DL/NW will not move forward with the merger if the pilots do not agree on seniority issues soon? Or, will they go ahead wi
169 Post contains images Jetlanta : Well, in that case, i'm sure it's a dead deal.
170 Post contains images Indy : If it dies do I get to take credit for it?
171 Jetlanta : It will be duly noted for the record!
172 IADCA : You seem to have completely misinterpreted my point. My point is not that Delta and Northwest will not merge (they probably will, and maybe it is a g
173 WorldTraveler : there is NOTHING anticompetitive about mergers. They are perfectly legal. DL/NW and UA/CO are some of the easiest mergers to defend from a legal and
174 Indy : Nothing anticompetitive? I'd call controlling a huge chunk of the south with a mega hub in ATL and a hub in MEM pretty anticompetitive. And if its de
175 LAXdude1023 : DTW is also smaller than DFW and IAH. In terms of metro area and city population.
176 IADCA : Yep, they should have. But the government frequently favors common carriers and large companies from failing because of the disruption it might cause
177 WorldTraveler : because your "point" is an opinion that I don't agree with. I would have preferred to ignore it but since you want a response, I'll give it to you an
178 Ikramerica : No, you are just wrong. While in theory, the executive branch has authority, in practice, the legislative branch has exceeded their powers in these i
179 WorldTraveler : the executive branch clearly has responsibility for mergers. No one is challenging that and laws are not going to be changed, certainly not because o
180 KingAir200 : On the other side of the coin, I'm sure the Deltoids would be saying the exact same thing if NWA was to remain the name and the HQ was to stay in Eag
181 IADCA : I find it very difficult to believe that you would not have a different view of this merger if Northwest was the name being kept. If you think your v
182 Ikramerica : I am in support of this merger. I was merely asking about the timing of the announcement. Man, I don't understand this argument. This isn't some abstr
183 WorldTraveler : And very rarely does Congress enact retroactive laws. Since there is absolutely no motion that they have anything in the works to stop something like
184 IADCA : I never assumed that. In fact, I assumed (correctly as you state) completely the opposite. I was reacting to you overemphasizing the degree of contro
185 Post contains images Rwy04LGA : That was due to national security issues. The DL/NW merger is not comparable.
186 Isitsafenow : Clarrifaction here gang, unless someone did not already point it out. Only if international routes are in the picture by any of the merger canidates.
187 WorldTraveler : The Department of Justice is responsible for mergers. International routes are not an issue. DOT is asked to advise but DOJ has authority.
188 Beaucaire : any latest news on the union-talks ??? AF have confirmed their willingness to invest 750M $ into the deal.
189 EA CO AS : So far all is quiet, although rumors are swirling that UA/CO is ready to go and they're waiting to announce AFTER NW/DL gets done. Supposedly all UA
190 Bobnwa : Are any of these rumors verifiable from within CO or UA? I haven't seen either UA or CO make any of those statements.
191 Continental180 : " target=_blank>http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/20/news...x.htm im so glad you posted this... becuase i wish airlines would see what the guy said at the
192 EMB170 : Do DL and NW have flowthrough agreements with their respective regionals? My understanding is that (at least at DL) with the exception of OH, all oth
193 Isitsafenow : The Pres has to sign off on it IF international routes are part of the merger. The Pres does not really have a veto like a bill. He basicly signs off
194 EA CO AS : No, but then again you'd NEVER get any "verification" of a rumor - you just get a merger announcement and that's it. Here's what I referred to, comin
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