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LH Accounts In Russia Blocked  
User currently offlineBoeing909 From Germany, joined Dec 2007, 24 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6562 times:

According to information of dpa the Russian authorities have blocked several Lufthansa accounts in Russia due to claimed back duty of 5-7 million Euros. No comment of LH on the situation.

Link (Germany only): www.finanzen.net/nachricht/Kreise_Ru...a_Konten__Streit_um_Steuern_679788

Any thoughts what's going on?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6442 times:



Quoting Boeing909 (Thread starter):
Any thoughts what's going on?

yeah, I have lots of thoughts

it's called blackmail: could you imagine LH playing with taxes in a foreign country??? of course not

after the gas stories with their ex-eastern block buddies, Russia wants to flex the muscle with the EU
and now Kosovo is independant it's going to get worse



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6336 times:



Quoting Varig md-11 (Reply 1):
it's called blackmail:

It's worse than blackmail, it's extortion. It's probably another way to get that provincial schmuck Kurt Beck to beg the Federal Government to meddle in affairs that are none of their business, like he did by indirectly getting LH to change its cargo hub from TSE/ALA to KJA during the problem with the overflight rights. LH is right by not giving a statement on the matter, because it's too sensitive of a matter.

This is most likely pure politics that will hurt the public enterprise.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6287 times:

Which taxes? Airline sales are not taxed in foreign countries, it is part of the bi-lateral agreements and International law, dating back from the Chicago convention and all its amendments. Assuming that LH has no revenues.from other activities in Russia, the only taxes the airline has to pay are those on wages for its local employees and eventually rhe Vodka it offers on parties and the lounges.

It was mentioned already, this happens amazingly on the day Kosovo is recognized by Germany. I understand that this is not the poltical forum but since Rusia plays foul again and this foul is connected with political issues, the political relation has to be mentioned.

Russia has to decide whether it wants to be the local mugger and bad boy of the block or a valued part of the international society.

.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

Why only Lufthansa? This seems like again an action targeted against LH commercially.. Since, as we know, In Russia the commercial and political are often too close for comfort (and the government has a fair stake in SU)

-A



What now?
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5994 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Which taxes? Airline sales are not taxed in foreign countries, it is part of the bi-lateral agreements and International law, dating back from the Chicago convention and all its amendments.

You see Russia complying with the Chicago Convention? Remember, they're still breaking the convention with their additional and excessive security fees that are added to the usual ATC charges.


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

From an airline perspective, this is a very interesting and an important development within the "New" Russia and how it handles foreign business, treaties, et al. In the long run, I don't think it will only apply to Lufthansa, but they are the most obvious at this given time, having been dictated to establish their mid-Asian cargo hub in Soviet (pardon Russian) territory.

If, indeed, other airlines have 5 to 7 million Euros in Russian banks, I would suggest that they withdraw them immediately and pay for services rendered by bank drafts (wire, on-line, etc.) . This action by the Russian government is absolute extortion and should not be hushed-up by Lufthansa, or any other airline which falls in the Russian pincers.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9116 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5881 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Boeing909 (Thread starter):
Any thoughts what's going on?

 faint 

Whats going on with russia and LH?! I think the russians like to play that "game" with LH! because its easy: Russia always wins  Sad

AH well, I am looking forward to my forst KJA flight  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5840 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):

You see Russia complying with the Chicago Convention? Remember, they're still breaking the convention with their additional and excessive security fees that are added to the usual ATC charges

No, I don't. Obviously, Russia is breaking international law at will and at random. Not only in the airline business BTW. But we talk about airline business only here.

Again, ticket or freight sales revenues are not subject to income taxation. The message which is quoted above does not specifly the taxes which are under dispute. A similar article in DIE WELT makes only a general statement as well. it is safe to say that Lufthansa ius run by professionals and that the company complies with the local laws of the countries where it operates.

It is also proven, that Russia bends and breaks its own and international laws at will and at random, they collect charges for permitting overflying right since years, which is illegal under international treaties. Russia has denied LH Cargo overflying rights for several days recently with the intention that they move a hiub from Kazakhstan to Russian territory. Only after Government intervention they have extended the rights until February and again for another month.,.
Draw you own conclusions. In my world, any company has the free choice where it does and handles its business and no country has the right to blackmail companies into locations that do not fit their operations.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 724 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

After years of having no money and being very quiet, The Russians are getting back to their old tricks again

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Perhaps its time to put Aeroflot on the EU's No-Fly list...

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5684 times:

As I said before, this is a very serious incident and should not be taken lightly. Apparently the Russians have a beef with Lufthansa since their dictated Krasnoyarsk mid-Asia base, but the dispute could be longer, eventually involving Aeroflot and other Russian airlines and their access to Germany. The last statement was just off the top of my head, because I have not counted the slots.

Anyway, something really irks the Russians about Lufthansa. I don't think they would be picking up any extra cargo in Moscow, which I think would be against convention rights. Yet, there is something, and maybe some of you can put a finger on why LH has up to now been singled out as the bastard child.


User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5684 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 10):
Perhaps its time to put Aeroflot on the EU's No-Fly list...

Cheers for that!


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5625 times:



Quoting RIXrat (Reply 11):
Moscow, which I think would be against convention rights. Yet, there is something, and maybe some of you can put a finger on why LH has up to now been singled out as the bastard chil

Let's have an open word about it Lufthansa cannot, under German law, pay any bribes. Look what happened to Siemens. No CEO and no CFO in his right minds will approve that and no local manager can afford to do it because he would be subject to prosecution in Germany and his career woujld be finished.

What happens to companies that don't grease the palms is subject to discussion in this thread., It is up to the German governrnent, to sort this out on the diplomatic channels. If a country requires its companies to handle their afffairs properly, world wide, they have to make sure that they will be able to handle their business under these conditions.

If that requires to freeze some SU assets here, fine.



.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5398 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
In my world, any company has the free choice where it does and handles its business and no country has the right to blackmail companies into locations that do not fit their operations.

 checkmark 

What you describe is what free enterprise is all about, and I fully agree. I was never disagreeing with you. But the other question should be why Germany, LH in particular, is being specifically targeted by Putin in these matters.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 10):
Perhaps its time to put Aeroflot on the EU's No-Fly list...

Try that, and Russia will summarily revoke any European airline overflight and landing rights in Russia, and for Asia flights, we're back to unnecessary polar routings and doing techstops in ANC again.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
It is up to the German governrnent, to sort this out on the diplomatic channels.

It is indeed, and this is a federal matter. The state governments must not run interference again, like Beck did when SU's overflight rights were revoked in retalliation to LH's overflight rights getting revoked. What Beck, and eventually Tiefensee did, made us look weak in front of the Russians and maybe that's also a motive for another extortion attempt as displayed with the freezing of LH's accounts in Russia.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
If that requires to freeze some SU assets here, fine.

Not only that, revoke landing and overflight rights to Germany for SU as well. Make them avoid Germany the way IF had to.


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2969 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

Me thinks EK will like the possible future developments, if the Russians continue to act like this....


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5334 times:



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 4):
Why only Lufthansa?

They have MD-11 which can't do it nonstop to Asia. So go for the 777F or 747ERF and the problem is solved. right?



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

The dispute over indirect (local) taxes between LH and RU government is not new - it dates back to several years ago. It is also not unique to LH - other airlines also faced tax claims from the authorities. Some paid. Others try to fight. Disputed taxes do not even exist any longer.
I do not really understand what 'Kosovo', 'new Russia', etc. have to do with the dispute.


User currently offlineVarig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1605 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5223 times:



Quoting MOW (Reply 17):
I do not really understand what 'Kosovo', 'new Russia', etc. have to do with the dispute.

please don't be offended
but politics and business are interlinked
exemple not involving Russia: since France "recognized" the Armenian genocide in Turkey, French companies are losing all business there
you know that Russia is p*ssed off about this Kosovo story and the "traitors" (Germany, France and others) who recognised this country are going to pay one way or another



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5171 times:



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 16):

They have MD-11 which can't do it nonstop to Asia. So go for the 777F or 747ERF and the problem is solved. right

mmmhh.not quite. The 777Fs have to be delivered first and DHL has first right of use and the 744F are in the family already, wih Jade, but they have a pilot shortage.

Quoting MOW (Reply 17):
I do not really understand what 'Kosovo', 'new Russia', etc. have to do with the dispu

the fact that a years old dispute, which has nothing to do with politics and concerns a private company but not a government, results in the blocking of accounts of that company,miraculously on the day Germany recognizes Kosovo, turns this issue politically.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5171 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 14):
Let's have an open word about it Lufthansa cannot, under German law, pay any bribes.

LH has by far the biggest presence in Russia, flying to multiple cities with shcedules and frequencies they like. Knowing my country I think it is almost impossible to do business so freely here without constantly bribing at different levels. High fares we have in Russia will compensate for this peculiarity of doing business here.


User currently offlineGorgos From Greece, joined Dec 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5142 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 7):
Russia always wins

Agreed, but I fail to understand why though.  no 

Of course they have resources, but their economy is smaller then the Benelux countries.


User currently offlineMOW From Israel, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 192 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5103 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
you know that Russia is p*ssed off about this Kosovo story and the "traitors" (Germany, France and others) who recognised this country are going to pay one way or another

If Russia was to make the 'traitors' pay by pressing their businesses, it would definitely chose somebody else over LH. LH revenues are incomparable even to DaimlerChrysler, not to mention German giants from energy sector, telecoms or retailers...


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9727 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5022 times:



Quoting MOW (Reply 22):

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
you know that Russia is p*ssed off about this Kosovo story and the "traitors" (Germany, France and others) who recognised this country are going to pay one way or another

whya do you use my name on this quote? I have not written that statement.

Quoting MOW (Reply 22):
f Russia was to make the 'traitors' pay by pressing their businesses, it would definitely chose somebody else over LH. LH revenues are incomparable even to DaimlerChrysler, not to mention German giants from energy sector, telecoms or retailers..

contrary to Lufthansa, the profits of the local Russian operations of these companies are subject to corporate and local tax in Russia. There is no dispute over that. Contrary - airlines work under bi-laterals which provide tax immunity

.

Quoting Gorgos (Reply 21):
Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 7):
Russia always wins

Agreed, but I fail to understand why though.

simple answer to the question: Where does a 1000lbs Gorilla sit? Answer - Anywhere he wants.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting MOW (Reply 22):
If Russia was to make the 'traitors' pay by pressing their businesses, it would definitely chose somebody else over LH. LH revenues are incomparable even to DaimlerChrysler, not to mention German giants from energy sector, telecoms or retailers...

That's not correct. They wouldn't hurt Daimler cause there are enough russians who want to drive their Mercedes cars since they got rich after the fall of the soviet empire.
Hurting LH operations is a win-win situation for the russian goverment. They make a political statement now the Kosovo recognized and their own airline could benefit if LH would withdraw from some routes or stops.


In the end, if LH keeps all russia operations, they will win, too, expect EU goverments would act together against this new soviet union aka russia or king Putin.

[Edited 2008-02-21 02:25:06]

25 Post contains images JoKeR : Hey we are even more pis*ed off but those beautiful LH birds keep on landing in BEG And they are welcome... I don't think this has anything to do wit
26 CARST : True, but like mentioned, too, the dispute is old, but the move from russia exactly now is no coincidence... And just by coincidence Lukoil (in which
27 MOW : Sorry! By mistake I used the toolbar under the post I wanted to quote. It automatically merged your name and other user's statement. 1. Mercedes is n
28 Post contains images Varig md-11 : join the EU and forget about the lost province, you' ll even have more nice birds at BEG and lots of investments to help you swallow the bitter pill
29 MOW : Airlines do pay unified social tax (social security tax) for the staff working here in Russia, for example. If they want to be immune from as many in
30 JFK787NYC : You forgetting Switzerland is not the EU You are totally right, Russian people are very hard in general to deal with. They feel that they let you mak
31 PanHAM : Simple answer. Bi-lateral agreements on traffic rights. You forget that every obscure and not so obscure carrier from all over the Empire can fly to
32 MOW : Don't forget about Air Berlin and Germanwings that also benefit from the existing bilateral. Vodka-drinking bears and matryoshkas do fly a lot on the
33 PanHAM : OK,and Blue Wings just opened DUS-MOW, but they are partly owned by some Russian investor. It is fair to say that Russian airlines do nicely on the Ge
34 Post contains images Ushermittwoch : Correct. Late time I flew DME-DUS, it was PACKED and me and my two friends were the only non-Russians onboard (at least of non-Russian descent )
35 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Something is going to have to be done. And it seems harsh rhetoric and violence is all Russia ever understands. Perhaps it would pay off to freeze SU
36 Post contains images Milan320 : /Milan320
37 Post contains images JoKeR : This one is a bit too big to swallow... but that will eventually be the outcome.
38 AF1624 : Agreed. But we would also have to be more aggressive. Denounce their totalitarian views to the world, ban them from the UN council until they start b
39 Post contains images JoKeR : Let's just declare WWIII, it'll be easier
40 JFK787NYC : Not just any Russian Investor, The same Russian Investor that owns 30% of Aeroflot. That airline was established to be a German owned operation with
41 PanHAM : yes, I am not keeping track of these guys, but I heard that name before. I spare the rest of my comment. contrary to some other countries where stran
42 MOW : Hey, SU wants to buy JAT. The World should not see this happen!!!
43 Post contains images LTU932 : Problem is that during the overflight rights problem, the EU basically didn't even bother to back up Germany. They just let it slip through. As a mat
44 Pylon101 : It doesn't make sense to turn any issue related to Russia into a big deal, really. In this particular case the dispute is between Yekaterinburg (Ural
45 PanHAM : would be interesting to lknow and bring some light into the issue what kind these "local" taxes are and how they are assessed.
46 MOW : It is all over the press / news websites today in Russia. Not a secret anymore. Unpaid unified social tax and road user tax back from 2004-2006 are t
47 PanHAM : If that amount is owed just to Jekaterinenburg, with 3 A319 flights per week, I consider that as a joke. Even if they include the flight crews you nev
48 SQ325 : I love that Idea! What??? I have very warm memories when LH started DNK and tried to start Dnepropetrovsk! Iknow in the Ukraine but the way of Busine
49 MOW : LH is not flying for charity purposes. They came to DNK / DOK to make money. Apparently, their business in UA (or RU) provinces is successful if they
50 JFK787NYC : Now, That will never happen as England, Europe & the United States are looking at Russia like the cause for riots in Serbia. If Russia never backed S
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