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787: JAL Switching To A350?  
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4336 posts, RR: 28
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18136 times:

Forgive me if this is a duplicate post. I know there are several on-going threads about the 787's delays, but I haven't read through all of them nor did a search turn up anything similar....

Quote:
Japan Airlines Corp (9205.T) is looking at buying some Airbus' mid-sized A350 XWB planes after production delays for Boeing Co's (BA.N) 787 planes, two company sources told Reuters...The sources said JAL, which had planned to buy 55 787 planes, favoring their greater fuel-efficiency, was looking at purchasing Airbus planes as it wants to offset the cost of higher fuel prices quickly by using more mid-sized airliners.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080222/bs_nm/airbus_jal_dc_1

Why would they even consider this as an option when the A350 is years behind the 787? Or, as might be likely, is it just a publicity stunt to put pressure on Boeing?


My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18126 times:

I think it has little to do with the 787 itself, but they may cancel some orders that they can (contract pending) or just not exercise some options.

This has more to do with them wanting to move their average plane size up, as opposed to any real issue with the 787 itself.

The A350-900 does have some compelling value proposition vs. the 787 and of course the 772.

NS


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18075 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
The A350-900 does have some compelling value proposition vs. the 787 and of course the 772.

The problem is it isn't coming quickly, which was the proposed rational for such a buy.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSirOmega From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18009 times:

Perhaps a reaction to the pushed back/delayed -10? Perhaps we don't see the 787-10 until 2015 (after the A350-900 is released).

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4336 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17905 times:



Quoting SirOmega (Reply 3):
Perhaps a reaction to the pushed back/delayed -10?

Why would they react to the -10 when the largest version they've ordered is the -8 and Airbus doesn't offer anything in that size range via the A350?



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17631 times:

I think JAL only wants what several carriers have done before them:
B787 for the lower end of the mid-size market and A350 for the higher end.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17623 times:

When rumors don't make sense, it isn't wise to trust them.

You can't cancel a plane that will come in 1-2 years and order one that would come 6 years later in order to improve on fuel efficiency today.

Now, are they considering choosing the A350 as a 772 replacement? Sure, maybe. But that's a different ball game.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5849 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17571 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
When rumors don't make sense, it isn't wise to trust them.

You can't cancel a plane that will come in 1-2 years and order one that would come 6 years later in order to improve on fuel efficiency today.

I second that.
For what it's worth, I haven't heard anything about it. But then, not sure that JALCargo really knows much about what goes on on the other side of things...


User currently offlineAerosol From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17556 times:

I understand this more like a possible A330 order than a 350 order.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17466 times:



Quoting Aerosol (Reply 8):
I understand this more like a possible A330 order than a 350 order.

I could see that. If Boeing cancels the 787-3, might JL order the A330 for domestic?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17337 times:



Quoting Chiad (Reply 5):
I think JAL only wants what several carriers have done before them:
B787 for the lower end of the mid-size market and A350 for the higher end.

That makes sence.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Quoting Aerosol (Reply 8):
I understand this more like a possible A330 order than a 350 order.


I could see that. If Boeing cancels the 787-3, might JL order the A330 for domestic?

That doesn't make any sense. the B-787-3 has a 2500nm-3000nm range, the A-330-200 has a much greater range, and would be wasted on the short, high density routes in Japan. JL could just as easily order non-ER B-767-300s for these short routes, since cargo is not a big issue on these routes.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2961 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16966 times:

What for? Unless Airbus offers an ultra-low gross weight version of the A350 and plus a wingspan that can fit within the 200ft box. JL isn't going to pull the plug on the 787.
The 783 maybe delayed a year or maybe two from the original 2010 service entry, as Boeing has its hand full just getting the 787 flying and certificated. It just makes more sense to have Boeing work on the 788 & 789 and put the 783 on the back burner for now.
Some people are blowing out of proportion that the 783 is going to be cancelled.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16942 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
I could see that. If Boeing cancels the 787-3, might JL order the A330 for domestic?

The dash 3 was probably a more important reason to go for the Dreamliner than national feelings, so they are risking to lose one incentive now. With the delays it's normal to rethink all the options you have, but Boeing and JAL will come to an agreement finally since it's just the best solution for both sides.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
That doesn't make any sense. the B-787-3 has a 2500nm-3000nm range, the A-330-200 has a much greater range, and would be wasted on the short, high density routes in Japan. JL could just as easily order non-ER B-767-300s for these short routes

They could go for the A330-300 instead, the incremental trip costs are minor (or perhaps even negleclible). But at the end of the day, A can make some nice proposals to JAL but nothing that really rocks. The 767 replacement is just not their field currently.

Cheers

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 16944 times:

You know, this thread title is really mis-leading. JL is not talking about canceling their B-787 order and replacing it with A-350s (to be delivered 8-10 years later).

JL is keeping their B-787 orders. They may buy the A-350, in addition to the B-787.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12574 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16755 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
JL is keeping their B-787 orders.

That might depend on what Boeing does with the -3.

I'm sure they'll keep the -8s, but will they want to switch -3s to -8s?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16655 times:

Probably just a scare tactic aiming to get better compensation from Boeing.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16609 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 15):
Probably just a scare tactic aiming to get better compensation from Boeing.

Nonsense isn't scary to anyone. The explanation for the rumor provided is nonsense.  Smile



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineChiad From Norway, joined May 2006, 1153 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 16557 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
You know, this thread title is really mis-leading. JL is not talking about canceling their B-787 order and replacing it with A-350s (to be delivered 8-10 years later).

Misleading!?!
The title says:
787: JAL Switching To A350?

Did you notice the question mark at the end?

But anyway ... I think you're probably right, especially if you mean that JAL wont cancel their B788 orders.
However the B783 switching to B788, if Boeing cancels the B783 program, might not happen.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 16436 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 15):
Probably just a scare tactic aiming to get better compensation from Boeing.


Nonsense isn't scary to anyone. The explanation for the rumor provided is nonsense.

The Article is, like all avation articles written by the general press, somewhat crap. However, often where there's smoke the is fire in regards to these things.

So in the event of it being along the write lines, JL putting pressure on Boeing would be my guestimate as to what is really going on.

Like i said in another thread the other day. I can't imagine the two Japanese carriers will be over the moon if Boeing do suspend the 783.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15943 times:

Flight Global reporting:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...a350-interest-over-787-delays.html

Quote:
A spokesman for the Oneworld alliance carrier tells ATI: “It is normal practice for us to carefully examine all new aircraft on the market and in the pipeline. As with all other new aircraft models, we have been examining the A350 project.

“In terms of introducing this aircraft to our fleet, we think it could be a potential candidate but currently we have no plans to purchase this aircraft.”

But it is a good ploy when entering into 787 compensation negotiations....



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15885 times:

http://today.reuters.fr/news/newsArt..._0_OFRBS-AIRBUS-JAPON-20080222.XML


Here an article in French , published by Reuters.fr

For those who do not read French , i have translated 2 phrases , prononced by JAL spokemen , which i guess are the more important ones out of this artticle.

- " To choose only one aircraft supplier regarding our next generation planes , is a risk bet.We should have another one (Airbus) "

- " We are always thinking at our fleet of tomorrow , thus of course , but not only at the A350XWB.Nothing has been decided yet "


Conclusion , JAL will NOT cancel their 787 orders , but could become as more and more airlines a 787/A350XWB operator , perhaps by not firm up their 787 options (20) , and by buying 20 A350XWBs.Just a though..........

When JAL people says " .......thus of course , but not only at the A350XWB..........." , can we see an open window for the A380 ?

With JAL , we can be very sceptikal about an Airbus purchase (same for EL AL) , but this is the very first time , people of this airline speak so seriously about Airbus.


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3776 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15370 times:

Fresh from FlightGlobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...a350-interest-over-787-delays.html

"It is normal practice for us to carefully examine all new aircraft on the market and in the pipeline. As with all other new aircraft models, we have been examining the A350 project.

"In terms of introducing this aircraft to our fleet, we think it could be a potential candidate but currently we have no plans to purchase this aircraft."


As expected, they were probably just trying to get more from Boeing in terms of price/perf guarantee/delay compensation by threatening to go to the competitor.

Coming from JAL, it's a bit of a weak threat...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSpenceSaab From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14487 times:

Boeing are finding that maybe they should have taken the A350 threat a little more seriously (remember the funny vid about the A350 being nothing more than an A330 with new wings and engines). The biggest problem for Boeing is that Emirates have made 70 firm orders for the A350. Some of these orders are for the -XWB, some for the -900, and some for the -1000; Plus 50 options.

I'm thinking that the options are to see if Boeing will (reluctantly) develop a 787-10. The problem with that being is that Boeing will end up diluting their own (very important) 777-300ER market by doing so.

I guess they could try the other option of developing a "777-300XLR (Extra Long Range), or something. That being a 777-300ER but with 787 technology. Tim Clarke has said that such a thing would be a "World Beater".

All in all the A350 looks like it could do to the 777-300ER what the 787 did to the A330.



Silence is Golden when you don't know a good answer
User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14251 times:



Quoting SpenceSaab (Reply 22):
The problem with that being is that Boeing will end up diluting their own (very important) 777-300ER market by doing so.

By 2015, the 777 is a 20 year old design. How long is the 777 supposed to have very strong sales, 30 years? 2025? It's the right time for Boeing to design newer more efficient planes especially considering the difference in fuel prices from 1995 to 2015.

Quoting SpenceSaab (Reply 22):
All in all the A350 looks like it could do to the 777-300ER what the 787 did to the A330.

The competitor to the 777-300ER , the A350-1000, doesn't EIS until 2016. And theres already a backlog for that model. It's not out of the realm of possibility that a slip of EIS of 6 months or a year could occur for Airbus.

Whats more likely is that the 777-300ER orders will increase, just like the A330 orders did when people realize its a very long wait for the A350-1000


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3970 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 14156 times:



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 23):

The competitor to the 777-300ER , the A350-1000, doesn't EIS until 2016.

The A350-1000XWB is planned for EIS in 2015, not 2016.


25 NorCal : What's that, provide the 777 with the best sales years of its life since there is no availability till 2015-2016?
26 Post contains links SpenceSaab : No, threaten an already well selling aircraft with a new-technology rival. Forcing them into a situation where they may need to redesign. Well I dunn
27 Clickhappy : At the time that video was made that is exactly what the "A350" was, a warmed over A330.
28 Post contains images Stitch : I would expect they would stick with the 767-300 and 777-200 like now. I do hope you realize that video was done by the public and not Boeing. Also,
29 NorCal : Well if the 777W/L takes the course of the A330 then it has it's brightest years ahead of it. The A330 has been having record sales years because the
30 Airbazar : I would say that's the intention. The 787 and A350 are not direct competitors. My guess is that this may be bargaining tactics as usual but what they
31 Sh0rtybr0wn : Because 747 is best freight airplane ever, and Airbus has never made a VLA freighter, thats why. Still thats only 1 plane you cite as an example of s
32 Stitch : As a freighter, yes. However it didn't record a passenger sale for almost half a decade between the last 747-400 and first 747-8.
33 Post contains images SpenceSaab : Oh yes I know, but they responded to that, I'm just saying that some people treat Boeing and Airbus like football teams, as if supporting either one
34 EBJ1248650 : I think you might have hit the nail squarely on the head.
35 NorCal : No you are right, in the long term the A350-1000 will force Boeing to develop a new aircraft (I don't think a 777NG will do it). I don't agree with s
36 Burnsie28 : So the 787 deliveries are delayed by about 3-6 months, yet go order the A350 and you won't get it until about 3 years after they would have got the 78
37 Columba : I think it has to do with the larger variant of the 787. JL is one of the airlines that could have a need for the 787-10 but as QF and BA they will l
38 Gigneil : Space is at a premium at some of those airports... the A330 is a HUGE airplane. / NS
39 YULWinterSkies : Too much range is not so much an issue: 1. They already have domestic 773 and 772A that have a lot more range than the 787-3, yet you do not seem to
40 Ktachiya : With the options, they had 55 on order? I thought only ANA ordered such a large batch of them. Wow, so more than 100 787 for Japan even when it hasn't
41 Ikramerica : ??? They have always taken it seriously. I've not heard Boeing say things like "the A350 won't sell" or "we'll just keep selling the 777 as is and it
42 Gigneil : You're right, it does. Its amazing how HEAVY the 787 has gotten. NS
43 Manfredj : It's no so easy to take the -400 off the pedestal. Almost half a decade, you mean 4 years...if your trying to make that sound like an eternity, it do
44 Gigneil : It won't. The 747-8i is a dead offering. It will live on for many years as a freighter. NS
45 Post contains links NCB : The 787-3 may be cancelled: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-considers-suspending-work-on.html and the B787 is not 3-6 months late it's 9 mont
46 Post contains images Ikramerica : The 788 flies 2000nm further than the A332, so it's sort of amazing it can do it with only a 7 ton greater MTOW... But for regional flights, the A332
47 Plairbus : Wow, even if Jal is not going to cancel nothing, but if they order 330 or 350 that would be very important for Airbus, and a bad feeling for Boeing. W
48 Ikramerica : It would be, but JAL is actually confirming that it's not doing any such thing any time soon. See earlier linked quotes from them.
49 Plairbus : I do not ask about earlier statements or post or links, i am talking about now and today and Airbus is very smart selling planes so if they have only
50 Post contains images NCB : Since the entire program is 9 months behind schedule at this point, no matter what happens, all deliveries are delayed by 9 months. And yes, delays w
51 Plairbus : Boeing is in trouble, because till now Japanease airlines are very loyal coustomers, and this can change if Boeing cancel or delays to much the 787-3
52 Post contains images DocLightning : If I was a betting man and a drinking man, I'd bet you a bottle of expensive scotch that it'll be even later. Unfortunately, I am neither a betting m
53 Ikramerica : I don't like scotch. The only part of this I even understand is weird to say the least. You don't care what what JAL says about NOT buying Airbus at t
54 FLALEFTY : Going back to the subject. It looks like JAL is trying to get some concessions from Boeing for being late with the 787 with this threat to buy the A34
55 Post contains images Ikramerica : JAL has said they are NOT threatening to buy the A350, so you are going back to before that point for what reason? "In terms of introducing this airc
56 Acheron : And people bashed the crap out of it for that, but yet, somehow for the people that said a warmed-over A330 couldn't compete, a warmed over 777 will
57 Plairbus : Would love to see this JAL birds coming from Airbus...
58 Qantas787 : With due respect and taking note of the recent delays at A & B I would wager a large sum that this aircraft will not see EIS in the year stated. Goin
59 Post contains links Plairbus : on the internet page www.aero.de it says really clear that Jal is considering the 350 not just roumors.
60 Mariner : Please - a little sense of proportion. Boeing is not "in trouble". Yes, that is what has been said from the git-go - they are "considering" it. And e
61 Post contains images Ikramerica : And then JAL answered, saying they consider all planes but they have no plans to purchase this plane at this time. How this could be translated into
62 FLALEFTY : I think we are in general agreement. JAL is not issuing at threat to buy the Airbus A350 (per se), but in the name of good business, they would certa
63 Stitch : JL flies a great number of 772s, 77Es, 773s and 77Ws. Those planes will not last forever and, eventually, JL will need to replace them. Until such a t
64 Burnsie28 : That may be true, but look at the A380.
65 Gigneil : What do you want us to see? Its beaten all expectations and has had a near flawless service entry. I assure you, production issues had on that airfra
66 Post contains images Carpethead : The new JL order Airbus (right now). Waahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaa..... Only way JL is going to order an A350 is the 787 program is canned, the Japanese heavies
67 Teme82 : On freighter yes. On passenger plane nope.... Are you sure? What if the A350 series would replace the older T7's on medium to long haul routes?
68 NCB : Yes and the B787-3 is about to be canceled. That's about half of the JAL/ANA ordered B787's. JAL and ANA will not be happy with a switch to -9's, the
69 Revelation : I think you are taking things a step too far. All we know for facts is that resources have been pulled off 787-3 "temporarily", and no orders have be
70 Post contains links N1786b : Before you and Neil start popping champagne corks, please have a look at this: Singapore 2008: JAL plays down report of A350 interest over 787 delays
71 Icareflies : Here is the last info coming from Reuters dated today. Please note it's still a "MAY BUY" Wichita Eagle 02/28/2008 Author: Molly McMillin Japan Airlin
72 Slz396 : I would say it is more than that. JAL has moved from a long term politely phrased: 'we're not totally excluding Airbus, hence we say maybe.' to: 'we
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