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Frontier Suspends CUN-STL/BNA/MKE/IND; PVR-ABQ  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33194 posts, RR: 71
Posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9540 times:

Mentioned in another thread ( http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3845192/ ), but I think it deserves it's own. Looks like Frontier is canning five more P2P Mexico routes. End dates:

Milwaukee-Cancun ends 14 April

Indianapolis-Cancun, Nashville-Cancun, and St. Louis-Cancun end 1 June

Albuquerque-Puerto Vallarta ends 14 June

Unlike some other Mexico routes that are being suspended during parts of the summer (like MCI/SLC-CUN), these routes are not bookable again after they end. Who knows, maybe they will resume again, but you'd think they would make them bookable again for the in-season.

This leaves just three point-to-point Mexico routes which are bookable already for next season: Kansas City to Cancun, Kansas City to Puerto Vallarta, and Salt Lake City to Cancun.

[Edited 2008-02-25 02:14:03]


a.
106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25561 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9536 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Mentioned in another thread ( http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3845192/ ), but I think it deserves it's own.

It's been "mentioned" in several threads.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Who knows, maybe they will resume again, but you'd think they would make them bookable again for the in-season.

I doubt it. I don't expect to see them come back.

mariner

[Edited 2008-02-25 02:21:53]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9377 times:

This CEO sure is cleaning out these non-DEN p2p flights FAST. Any idea where these a/c will be allocated to next? It's hard to get a finger on what he is doing yet,but hope for the best at F9. I'm curious to the F9 insiders how this is being taken.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

F9 really seems to be having trouble with it's non-DEN flights, and even with some of its hub flights. As many have said, this will be a tough year for F9. Curious too because many of those routes have no direct competition.

User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9327 times:

I like Frontier but fear this could be the beginning of the end for them. WN and UA are both hitting them hard. They should consider a full merger with Air Tran to make the entire network much stronger.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9232 times:



Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 4):
WN and UA are both hitting them hard.

What's odd though is that on these Mexico routes, they are running without opposition. Some cities may have the odd vacation charter, but F9 mostly has these markets to themselves (correct me if I'm wrong).


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9233 times:



Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 4):

If F9 is running from WN, how would they merge with ATA who's stocks are 28% owned by WN?

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9193 times:

Hmmm, maybe F9 is feeling the heat, and needs allocate resources to Denver to ward off WN/UA? It could be that they are ending unprofitable routes..Either way, this isn't looking good for them.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
If F9 is running from WN, how would they merge with ATA who's stocks are 28% owned by WN?

I think he means AirTran/FL.

[Edited 2008-02-25 07:11:24]


http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9178 times:

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
If F9 is running from WN, how would they merge with ATA who's stocks are 28% owned by WN?

He said AirTran, or FL. Not ATA (TZ). And F9 will be doing just fine. Menke is just getting the house in order. F9 is ending routes that are hurting them, just like any airline would. Everybody needs to stop with this 'it's the end of the world' bullshit.

EDIT: grammar

[Edited 2008-02-25 07:00:42]

User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9083 times:



Quoting AS739X (Reply 2):
Any idea where these a/c will be allocated to next?

The aircraft will probably used to increase XXX-DEN frequencies on Saturdays, or will just support lower utilization on the weekend.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8974 times:

As much as I admire this airline company and which I've followed since the WestPac days (mid 90's) . lately I'm seeing a trend which I hope I'm absolutely wrong about. From a passenger perspective Frontier has one the best products in the American sky.

The appearance dictates Frontier is initiating service to cities, who offer incentives, fly the service up to a year (or less, BTR) and then terminating the cities after the incentives are gone. FAT and BTR being two. There may be others

Yesteryear the feds offered upwards of a million dollars to U.S. flagged air carriers who offered service to Mexico from select cities in the U.S. I'm not sure if Frontier applied for and or was selected to receive any of those incentives.

Mexico flying as memory serves me was an experiment which ended up being a huge "wow factor" Multiple Mexico cities were added to F9 route map on a short fuse. I hope these closures are seasonal adjustments, keeping in mind the U.S. is in a borderline recession as a result the U.S. vacationer is traveling less to Mexico. North of the border, the U.S. dollar is almost on equal footing with the Canada dollar (Loonie)

CEO Menke being the new Sheriff in town is entitled to clean house, IMO "the little airline that did" should consider a little public relations damage control "If you build it they will come" There are writings which indicate Frontier is attempting to return to its second life roots. I sure hope so.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8904 times:

My bad, completely misread at 500a. SorryATW

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 281 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8850 times:

These are all good moves for Frontier. It is amazing to me how many people think these adjustments are bad news for Frontier when in reality, they are moving Frontier back to what they do best, serve the Denver market. It is all about where you can fly the airplane and make the most money. Mexico flying outside of Denver has absolutely no network contribution. It is stand alone and low yield to boot. Frontier has found out that higher frequency in their home market means they can compete with WN and UA and gain higher yields than these non-Denver markets. Frontier's load factor has seen one of the highest increases in the nation because of this. If you really think about it, nearly every airline seems to go through this process. They expand outside of what they do best because they think they need to and then end up moving back to their areas of strength. This is the best course of action for Frontier. Only time will tell whether it is enough but it really is their only logical choice.

User currently offlineMrSTL From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 468 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

IMO, Menke is preparing for an acquirer and positioning F9 to be a stronger DEN O&D driven addition to another airlines route network. Plane and simple

[Edited 2008-02-25 08:53:47]

User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Frontier is really trimming the fat. It's a good sign for the long term viability IMO. Much leaner airline. Frustrating to see all of their non-DEN focus cities spitting the bit though (LAX, CUN, MEM kind of...).

Pittsburgh strikes me as an opportunity for them when they decide to give it another go outside of DEN.


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8713 times:

Maybe Frontier should concentrate more on its Domestic business until things turn around, perhaps try and do 20-25 turns on domestic flights, see if that helps with profits. They have to change their stragety because something is not working.

Could it be too much int'l for a so called LCC carrier??


User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 572 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8692 times:

Remember that these routes might have been profitable prior to Menke's return as CEO, but as we've all been hearing time and time again - many routes for airlines that were prveviously profitable can no longer be justified with today's oil prices...plain and simple. A small carrier such as Frontier does not have the resources and capital to nurture routes and hope that fuel prices fall - hence the drastic and imo, necessary cuts of marginal/unprofitable flying. Failing to do so would be worse - possibly meaning the end of the airline. These cuts are intended to steer the company back to sustained profitability, and hopefully, remain in business for the forseeable future.

Cheers


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5115 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8629 times:



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 3):
F9 really seems to be having trouble with it's non-DEN flights, and even with some of its hub flights. As many have said, this will be a tough year for F9. Curious too because many of those routes have no direct competition.

Menke is just bringing back F9 to DEN. I honestly scratched my head when all of these other routes popped up a few years ago.

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 4):
I like Frontier but fear this could be the beginning of the end for them. WN and UA are both hitting them hard. They should consider a full merger with Air Tran to make the entire network much stronger.

It is far from over, and F9 will be fine. Just give it some time, and we will see results of the changes. I was always a believer in gradual change, but why?

Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 16):
Remember that these routes might have been profitable prior to Menke's return as CEO, but as we've all been hearing time and time again - many routes for airlines that were prveviously profitable can no longer be justified with today's oil prices...plain and simple. A small carrier such as Frontier does not have the resources and capital to nurture routes and hope that fuel prices fall - hence the drastic and imo, necessary cuts of marginal/unprofitable flying. Failing to do so would be worse - possibly meaning the end of the airline. These cuts are intended to steer the company back to sustained profitability, and hopefully, remain in business for the forseeable future.

Cheers

AirplaneBoy!!! How is it going? I am so glad to see ya still kicking on these boards. I was kinda worried when I have not seen you respond to the doom and gloom! If anyone knows F9, Mariner and AirplaneBoy are the best sources. I rest my case...........  Smile Hope you are still enjoying being a different animal at 35K!!! LOL!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25561 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8572 times:
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Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 16):
A small carrier such as Frontier does not have the resources and capital to nurture routes and hope that fuel prices fall

Right on the money. How are you, mate, you haven't posted in a while? Good to see you here again.  Smile

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 5):
What's odd though is that on these Mexico routes, they are running without opposition.

Most of these did well - in high season. But Mr Menke does not think it is worth sustaining them just for that high season - with oil at $100 bbl.

The aircraft can be used more profitably elsewhere.

Example: DEN-SJO has been doing darn well, but it'll fall off a cliff in September. I assume there will be a schedule adjustment.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8461 times:

I am glad to see F9 cutting back on the non-profitable routes and as one of the other posters said - the airline needs to add frequencies from DIA to compete with WN and UA. In addition, the airline can add routes from DIA if it has the equipment to do so. However, as I have said before, as much as I think the service of F9 is outstanding in terms of on-board product, I am very concerned for this carrier at this point.

Cheers,
BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23217 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8357 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
The aircraft can be used more profitably elsewhere.

But can they be used more profitably elsewhere year-round? That seems to be the key.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8331 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
Example: DEN-SJO has been doing darn well, but it'll fall off a cliff in September. I assume there will be a schedule adjustment.

Maybe a switch to an A318 is in order? That could at least help yields a little bit.


User currently offlineTripleboom From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 278 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 8304 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21):

Maybe a switch to an A318 is in order? That could at least help yields a little bit.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that may stretch the limits of the range of the a/c. At 118 passengers and w/o the high powered CFMs found on the overwater equipped A319s F9 typically flies to SJO, in addition to potential weight/performance restrictions climbing out of high (3,000 ft?) and humid SJO, it might be difficult to produce good yields on that a/c type.


User currently offlineAirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 572 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 8303 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 17):
AirplaneBoy!!! How is it going? I am so glad to see ya still kicking on these boards.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
How are you, mate, you haven't posted in a while?

Gentlemen-

Thank you for the kind words. I can only say the same about you both!  Smile I have been incredibly busy with attending school full time and flying. I am happy to report that I will complete my current degree this June and will take a much needed break before attending grad school next year.

I can't believe how fast time flies...I have already been at F9 for nearly four years now and I'm STILL loving it!  Smile Great company, great people, and great service. If THAT isn't a testament to what a wonderful company Frontier Airlines is (for someone who is no longer a rookie!), then I don't know what is. It's always disappointing to see the usual armchair CEO's criticizing Menke and F9 for the decisions that are being made at present. Rest assured that I, as an employee, believe wholeheartedly in the what our management team is striving to achieve- SUSTAINED PROFITABILITY. I hope my words don't come across as harshly as they might seem on the web (I'm more soft spoken in person!), but I feel that many folks who don't have a grasp of how our tumultuous (yes- tumultuous) industry operates make assumptions without knowing the industry and/or company in which they criticize. Heck- even aviation consultant Mike Boyd does not convince me most of the time (and he IS NOT always on the money).

Needless to say, every airline in the U.S. (even Southwest) is now looking at ways to minimize costs because our "playing field" has changed for the forseeable future. Here's one example that many others have used: domestic long hauls might have been profitable when oil hovered around $50-$60 a barrel (and even the returns on these flights decreased from the days when fuel was only in the $30 range when I started working for the airlines in early 2004 - Economics 101...plain and simple). With increased competition, AND with fuel in the $100/barrel range, such flights (generally speaking) can no longer sustain profitability. Why not use these aircraft on routes with little or no competition, and are shorter in mileage? When Frontier closed BWI, that aircraft was utilized to add frequencies to other short-haul destinations (i.e. LAS, SLC, PHX, etc.). Hypothetically,each seat might have been sold for the same price on a short-haul as it was for DEN-BWI. This in turn helped to maximize the revenue potential for that particular aircraft (fly 4-6 short hauls with seats selling for the same prices as that of the two daily long-hauls to BWI).

Frontier is currently embarking on a new chapter in its history- the startup of Frontier Airlines Holding's wholly-owned subsidiary Lynx Aviation, the growth of the regional jet fleet (operated by Republic Airlines), as well as the obvious growth in new and existing regional markets. The first A320 is due online soon, with the second ship set to arrive in early March. Although 4 aircraft (A318/A319) are to be sold, the company will only lose 2 mainline aircraft but still retains growth through the new Q400 and E170 fleets.

We all know the saying..."money talks and bull**** walks" - well, it is sooo true in this business. As I previously mentioned, Frontier Airlines is not a company that has the kind of resources and financial capital as does say AirTran or jetBlue. EVERY decision management makes today and in the future MUST be justified and cannot be in haste. There are 6,000 plus employees who are counting on the survival of this airline - this company, and there are also many stockholders who are holding onto their shares because they believe in FRNT. Yes, F9's stock prices have been horrible as of late (well, really since WN announced their foray into the DEN market) .... but most stockholders familiar with the airline industry know that FRNT has always been undervalued. For instance, even when the positive performance of the company is reported, it is not unusual for the price to drop. Why? Some of us, especially Mariner, would like to know.

This is the unfortunate state of affairs in the airline industry. Every penny counts and at the end of the day, whether airline "A" flies to more destinations than airline "B" is irrelevant. It's all about the financials...whoever has the money stays and whoever does not- well, we know what happens then. I believe in Frontier Airlines and although it is sad to see routes/destinations go, Frontier Airlines is adding others that will hopefully improve its earnings. I'm especially excited about the potential for the new regional flying recently announced.

Looking toward the future and thinking of the the 6,000 plus Frontier employees,

AirplaneBoy


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25561 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 8245 times:
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Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21):
Maybe a switch to an A318 is in order? That could at least help yields a little bit.

One of the problems with Mexico is the low season and I'm sure that applies to Costa Rica as well. While DEN-CUN has always been a stellar performar for Frontier, this is the first year it will stay as daily service during the low season.

Similarly, DEN-SLC, which does great, even as just 1 or 2 x weekly. Frontier used to keep it going as year round - Saturday only - but it's a long way and uses a lot of (expensive) fuel, so this year they are suspending it for three months in low season.

So with DEN-SJO - its a long way and uses a low of (expensive) fuel. So my feeling would be - either cut it back to (say) Saturday only service or drop it altogether for a couple of months.

That's just me, and I don't run the airline. I have no idea what Mr. Menke will decide, but I would be very surprised to see DEN-SJO stay as the 5 x weekly it is now.

Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 23):
Frontier is currently embarking on a new chapter in its history

All that - and even more, AirplaneBoy. For my money, there is a new sign outside Frontier's door "Under New Management".

Since Mr. Menke took command oil has risen from $70 bbl to $100 bbl. This changes the landscape - routes that might have been profitable before may not be profitable now - and, as you say, every airline out there is struggling to cope with this.

Mr. Menke has met the challenge head on, he is pro-actively working to meet the future and is ruthlessly unsentimental.

There have been a lot of surprises since Mr. Menke took control. I don't think he has done yet. Happily.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
25 Jkudall : you mean SLC-CUN?
26 EXAAUADL : oh please!!! Dropping nonperforming ptp routes is not an indication of the begining of the end of F9. 1. UA isnt hitting F9 hard. UAL doesnt know how
27 EXAAUADL : oh please!!! Dropping nonperforming ptp routes is not an indication of the begining of the end of F9. 1. UA isnt hitting F9 hard. UAL doesnt know how
28 NZblue : None of F9's A318s have any of the necessary overwater emergency equipment needed for such operations. You could fly the A318 DEN-SJO, but with a len
29 Post contains images Mariner : Thanks, I do, indeed. My (very) bad. mariner
30 Davidlc3 : One point that I have not yet seen discussed is the lack of advertising and marketing that F9 performs in stations other than DEN. Here in DFW they at
31 Mariner : There was a lot, and a lot of it was directed towards Denver's Mexican community. This is an old issue about Frontier that is discussed quite often,
32 Davidlc3 : F9's marketing in DEN is brilliant...so cool in fact that I looked for it when they launched the additional DFW services....but none was to be found.
33 Mariner : I'm not sure which additional DFW services you mean. If you are talking about about Mexico (?), Frontier can't advertise those. mariner
34 Davidlc3 : Really? This is new news to me! Why couldn't they advertise their DFW GDL n/s?
35 Mariner : Frontier doesn't fly DFW-GDL, at least, not in their own right. Assuming we are talking about the same thing - and I'm not sure we are - the DFW-Mexi
36 Post contains links Davidlc3 : My bad...it was MZT http://flyfrontier.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=1365
37 Mariner : They did fair amount of advertising on DFW-MZT, too. Or at least, as much as any outstation to Mexico. The route didn't work, and Mr. Menke took the
38 Jmy007 : Mazatlan is the city listed on F9's route map
39 OptionsCLE : Isn't BNA-CUN seasonal anyway? It was back in 2005 when I flew the route. If so, a June 1 end date sounds pretty reasonable to me.
40 MAH4546 : It is not returning for next winter season.
41 Jetdeltamsy : True, but they are secondary markets at best. As they were non-hub flights, that places a heavy dependence on O&D traffic. I don't think these cuts a
42 Indy : I was wondering how long it would take F9 to stop the route out of IND. It never made sense why they started it. They go to an airport there they have
43 Tripleboom : Frontier actually just launched a huge nationwide sale today. There will be F9 advertising in 31 different newspapers across the country, including so
44 Luv2fly : Myself I was really surprised that F9 did not partner with a tour operator like Apple Vacations or Vacation Express and have them take a set amount of
45 Ytib : They do partner with Apple from some cities. Additionally they have scheduled charter services through Apple from MDW-CUN and DEN-HUX
46 Mariner : But - they did. As noted by ytib, Frontier has a complex relationship with Apple Vacations. They have (or now had) a partnership with Vacation Expres
47 LAXintl : Yes so did SWA with nationwide fares range from $49 to $99 one-way.
48 TheGreatChecko : Its Tuesday...everyone puts out their fare sales on Tuesdays....
49 Mariner : I'm not sure what that has to do with this debate. It is a frequent comment - at least on this website - that Frontier "does not advertise". Triplebo
50 Indy : I live in Indianapolis and I watch for this sort of thing. I saw nothing. I don't know where they supposedly advertised it. That route was launched w
51 Post contains images Davidlc3 : I agree with you Indy. Same situation in DFW for the MZT route last year. There used to be a theorem that said if you enter a market dominated by 1 c
52 Mariner : I shrug. There is a poster here who maintains that Frontier spent no money on advertising LAX-SFO. In fact, they spent over a million bucks on that r
53 LAXintl : Sure it does - someone mentions F9 launched a national sale today, and I mentioned so did Southwest. With presumption that a sale is geared at genera
54 Mariner : But it happens frequently that airlines launch sales at similar times, and sometimes on the same day. It is not unusual. And - again - I can only tel
55 Msytristar : Regardless of money spent, I agree with posters in various cities who wonder where that money goes. It goes somewhere but its not really visible to th
56 Indy : Doesn't really matter how much you spend if its a poor marketing campaign. I honestly think its sad that more people around Indianapolis aren't famil
57 Post contains images Mariner : Yet Frontier is doing well on DEN-IND, up to 5 x daily. So how did it work with Memphis? Frontier spent a deal of money on MEM. I saw some of that he
58 Indy : How much of that is the result of advertising in DEN and the reputation of F9 in DEN? I'm betting that is the result of advertising there and not adv
59 Mariner : I would hope that a very great deal of it is. And if the planes are full, the planes are full. Still, given the number of Frontier FF's (and elites)
60 Post contains images LAXintl : I'd really be really curious to know statistics on Frontiers point of purchase. I'd also be willing to wager that they are much more titled towards D
61 Mariner : That's already been agreed. Otherwise the marketing dollars that are supposedly spent in DEN are down the toilet. Aren't they? However, on a day that
62 AirportGuy1971 : How about spinning this around the other way. I live in Denver. I watch TV and I subscribe to the Denver Post (Although the Denver Newspaper Agency se
63 LAXintl : Its one thing to occasionally advertise in 31 local papers, its a totally different thing to keep the name in peoples minds on a regular basis on nat
64 Mariner : It is a different thing - an extremely expensive thing. mariner
65 MSYtristar : Yes they did well in MSY despite non existent marketing. I'd venture to say they would have done even better with some local marketing. Anyway I am gl
66 Post contains images FRNT787 : Well it is only a sign of a failing airline if F9 drops the routes... How many airlines the size of F9 do have frequent ads in major papers. (By the
67 Indy : Right. And you can't afford to do that in a market where you have 5 flights a day. That is just too costly per passenger served.
68 Mariner : They can afford to do it sometimes - such as now. But they're getting knocked for doing that, too. I'm a Broadway baby, I follow simple rules: advert
69 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : The range established for the 319 is larger compared with the capability supplied for the 318. The following graphic from airbus.com states the issue
70 Indy : So true about saving a dud. You can have the greatest show in the world but it doesn't do any good if nobody knows about you. Get the word out. Get p
71 Ytib : I was in the Bay area just after this route was started and having business in the city I saw advertising for Frontier's new service to LAX. Where wa
72 Mariner : Within my experience, folk know when a good show's in town. When Frontier announced Costa Rica (May 22), they knew within two or three weeks (June 7,
73 MSYtristar : I think the trick is for airline's to find a right balance in terms of outstation marketing. Like I said, smaller carriers generally don't have the bu
74 Post contains images Davidlc3 : Mariner - I did not think my respect for you could grow any more (as you are already one of the most respected in this forum) but this comment might
75 Indy : That route was launched from where?
76 MSYtristar : Well, Mariner did not post the message you quoted. Please see again. I know all airlines which value their employees would listen to any and all sugg
77 Mariner : You're missing the point. As with MEM-MCO versus MEM-LAS. Advertising didn't make DEN-SJO work. Just as advertising couldn't help DEN-GDL. mariner
78 Post contains images ATCtower : How can you explain F9 is running from WN? With these cancellations, I am certain we will see higher frequency on certain routes. I do not get how yo
79 Indy : Two things have to happen. First is that people have to know about F9. It isn't exactly a household name in IND like it is in DEN. Then people have t
80 Mariner : I might agree, but that is a separate issue to the advertising. Moreover, IND-CUN cannot be seen in isolation. Mr. Menke is taking out virtually all
81 Indy : It may have been profitable or unprofitable. Hard to say. What I am sure of is that it required a lot of attention by F9 for such a small operation.
82 Cubsrule : Perhaps this is the point. The p2p Mexican flying had become so large that they had to bridge aircraft through the American outstations. That meant e
83 FRNT787 : I agree completely (There was sarcasm in the post you quoted). All airlines start routes and drop them depending on success, it is the nature of the
84 MSYtristar : F9 will benefit from improved aircraft utilization with these cuts. Most of those Mexico routes were fairly long and tied up the planes for much of th
85 Post contains images Mariner : So - at last we agree. mariner
86 Post contains images Indy : My account expires tomorrow I think. This was like hitting a shot at the buzzer
87 LambertMan : Mariner- Care to speculate about other stations that may be in trouble? Hopefully not St. Louis...
88 Cubsrule : AA's imminent exit from DEN-STL should help the remaining carriers (though I suspect it'll be the most helpful to WN).
89 Post contains images Mariner : After these cuts, I doubt any stations are "in trouble".    As stated before, Mr, Menke has been ruthlessly unsentimental and has now said he is "f
90 Cubsrule : There are still quite a few cities with 4 carriers competing (WN/UA/F9/hub carrier from the other city). If I had to speculate, I'd say those are lik
91 ABQ747 : Why do you say that? Is it because they have to park the plane at a separate area for international arrivals, and then tow the plane to a gate for de
92 Mariner : The Conventional Wisdom is that only Southwest matters - that against Southwest, Frontier must lose. The reality may be slightly different. It is US
93 MSYtristar : I'd be curious to know the reasons behind that. It could be that WN stimulated the overall demand in the market (by it's aggressive marketing campaig
94 Mariner : All I know is this - that when Southwest started DEN, Frontier had about 21% market share. At the Raymond James Conference (last month?), it was said
95 JumboBumbo : I tend to think people are over-reacting... this is going to be a bad year in the macroeconomic sense anyway. It's not quite March and oil is over $10
96 Post contains links Mariner : It continues, though. Here are the January stats for AUS: http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...feed=ACBJ&date=20080229&id=8264155 "Southwest Airlin
97 Post contains images ATCtower : There is not a large market, or O&D market running through ABQ. I have flown intl out of ABQ and can say it is a real pain in the ass. If two flights
98 Alphascan : Everyone but the Mayor and the Airport Commission, that is.
99 ABQ747 : There is a large enough O&D market to support international flights out of ABQ. Do you know what the load factors of the ABQ-PVR flights are? When? T
100 Post contains images MSYtristar : That is excellent news. I don't expect this trend to stop, either. When I'm in DIA tomorrow afternoon, I'll be sure to congratulate the good folks at
101 KingCavalier : The ABQ customs was remodled, but it is still small. There are no restrooms, and I believe the holding room is rated to 100 people max (for fire depar
102 Mariner : I'm sure ABQ can. But that isn't the issue. Mr. Menke has decided that Frontier - at this time - should not be in the business of non-core flying. It
103 Post contains links ABQ747 : Here is the application: http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...osition=attachment&contentType=pdf AM applied for ABQ and DTW at the same time. They
104 AirportGuy1971 : Keep in mind that while the customs facility is indeed extremely efficent, there are a finite number of international gates at DIA. Mr Menke is putti
105 Post contains images YXwatcherMKE : When F9 started the MKE - CUN service they said it was going to be seasonal service as well as it should be. Lets face it we are not thinking of runni
106 Post contains links ABQ747 : KOAT-TV just did a report on F9's ABQ-PVR service, and they said that the City of Albuquerque is under contract to pay F9 if the flights are not profi
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