Indianapolis-Cancun, Nashville-Cancun, and St. Louis-Cancun end 1 June
Albuquerque-Puerto Vallarta ends 14 June
Unlike some other Mexico routes that are being suspended during parts of the summer (like MCI/SLC-CUN), these routes are not bookable again after they end. Who knows, maybe they will resume again, but you'd think they would make them bookable again for the in-season.
This leaves just three point-to-point Mexico routes which are bookable already for next season: Kansas City to Cancun, Kansas City to Puerto Vallarta, and Salt Lake City to Cancun.
AS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6390 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9956 times:
This CEO sure is cleaning out these non-DEN p2p flights FAST. Any idea where these a/c will be allocated to next? It's hard to get a finger on what he is doing yet,but hope for the best at F9. I'm curious to the F9 insiders how this is being taken.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9911 times:
F9 really seems to be having trouble with it's non-DEN flights, and even with some of its hub flights. As many have said, this will be a tough year for F9. Curious too because many of those routes have no direct competition.
ATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9906 times:
I like Frontier but fear this could be the beginning of the end for them. WN and UA are both hitting them hard. They should consider a full merger with Air Tran to make the entire network much stronger.
Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
What's odd though is that on these Mexico routes, they are running without opposition. Some cities may have the odd vacation charter, but F9 mostly has these markets to themselves (correct me if I'm wrong).
PanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2767 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9757 times:
Quoting AS739X (Reply 6): If F9 is running from WN, how would they merge with ATA who's stocks are 28% owned by WN?
He said AirTran, or FL. Not ATA (TZ). And F9 will be doing just fine. Menke is just getting the house in order. F9 is ending routes that are hurting them, just like any airline would. Everybody needs to stop with this 'it's the end of the world' bullshit.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9553 times:
As much as I admire this airline company and which I've followed since the WestPac days (mid 90's) . lately I'm seeing a trend which I hope I'm absolutely wrong about. From a passenger perspective Frontier has one the best products in the American sky.
The appearance dictates Frontier is initiating service to cities, who offer incentives, fly the service up to a year (or less, BTR) and then terminating the cities after the incentives are gone. FAT and BTR being two. There may be others
Yesteryear the feds offered upwards of a million dollars to U.S. flagged air carriers who offered service to Mexico from select cities in the U.S. I'm not sure if Frontier applied for and or was selected to receive any of those incentives.
Mexico flying as memory serves me was an experiment which ended up being a huge "wow factor" Multiple Mexico cities were added to F9 route map on a short fuse. I hope these closures are seasonal adjustments, keeping in mind the U.S. is in a borderline recession as a result the U.S. vacationer is traveling less to Mexico. North of the border, the U.S. dollar is almost on equal footing with the Canada dollar (Loonie)
CEO Menke being the new Sheriff in town is entitled to clean house, IMO "the little airline that did" should consider a little public relations damage control "If you build it they will come" There are writings which indicate Frontier is attempting to return to its second life roots. I sure hope so.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
Stapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 289 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9429 times:
These are all good moves for Frontier. It is amazing to me how many people think these adjustments are bad news for Frontier when in reality, they are moving Frontier back to what they do best, serve the Denver market. It is all about where you can fly the airplane and make the most money. Mexico flying outside of Denver has absolutely no network contribution. It is stand alone and low yield to boot. Frontier has found out that higher frequency in their home market means they can compete with WN and UA and gain higher yields than these non-Denver markets. Frontier's load factor has seen one of the highest increases in the nation because of this. If you really think about it, nearly every airline seems to go through this process. They expand outside of what they do best because they think they need to and then end up moving back to their areas of strength. This is the best course of action for Frontier. Only time will tell whether it is enough but it really is their only logical choice.
LambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2102 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9354 times:
Frontier is really trimming the fat. It's a good sign for the long term viability IMO. Much leaner airline. Frustrating to see all of their non-DEN focus cities spitting the bit though (LAX, CUN, MEM kind of...).
Pittsburgh strikes me as an opportunity for them when they decide to give it another go outside of DEN.
Juventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9292 times:
Maybe Frontier should concentrate more on its Domestic business until things turn around, perhaps try and do 20-25 turns on domestic flights, see if that helps with profits. They have to change their stragety because something is not working.
Could it be too much int'l for a so called LCC carrier??
AirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 609 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9271 times:
Remember that these routes might have been profitable prior to Menke's return as CEO, but as we've all been hearing time and time again - many routes for airlines that were prveviously profitable can no longer be justified with today's oil prices...plain and simple. A small carrier such as Frontier does not have the resources and capital to nurture routes and hope that fuel prices fall - hence the drastic and imo, necessary cuts of marginal/unprofitable flying. Failing to do so would be worse - possibly meaning the end of the airline. These cuts are intended to steer the company back to sustained profitability, and hopefully, remain in business for the forseeable future.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5600 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9208 times:
Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 3): F9 really seems to be having trouble with it's non-DEN flights, and even with some of its hub flights. As many have said, this will be a tough year for F9. Curious too because many of those routes have no direct competition.
Menke is just bringing back F9 to DEN. I honestly scratched my head when all of these other routes popped up a few years ago.
Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 4): I like Frontier but fear this could be the beginning of the end for them. WN and UA are both hitting them hard. They should consider a full merger with Air Tran to make the entire network much stronger.
It is far from over, and F9 will be fine. Just give it some time, and we will see results of the changes. I was always a believer in gradual change, but why?
Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 16): Remember that these routes might have been profitable prior to Menke's return as CEO, but as we've all been hearing time and time again - many routes for airlines that were prveviously profitable can no longer be justified with today's oil prices...plain and simple. A small carrier such as Frontier does not have the resources and capital to nurture routes and hope that fuel prices fall - hence the drastic and imo, necessary cuts of marginal/unprofitable flying. Failing to do so would be worse - possibly meaning the end of the airline. These cuts are intended to steer the company back to sustained profitability, and hopefully, remain in business for the forseeable future.
AirplaneBoy!!! How is it going? I am so glad to see ya still kicking on these boards. I was kinda worried when I have not seen you respond to the doom and gloom! If anyone knows F9, Mariner and AirplaneBoy are the best sources. I rest my case........... Hope you are still enjoying being a different animal at 35K!!! LOL!
BP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9040 times:
I am glad to see F9 cutting back on the non-profitable routes and as one of the other posters said - the airline needs to add frequencies from DIA to compete with WN and UA. In addition, the airline can add routes from DIA if it has the equipment to do so. However, as I have said before, as much as I think the service of F9 is outstanding in terms of on-board product, I am very concerned for this carrier at this point.
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
Tripleboom From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 278 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8883 times:
Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21):
Maybe a switch to an A318 is in order? That could at least help yields a little bit.
I'm not 100% sure but I think that may stretch the limits of the range of the a/c. At 118 passengers and w/o the high powered CFMs found on the overwater equipped A319s F9 typically flies to SJO, in addition to potential weight/performance restrictions climbing out of high (3,000 ft?) and humid SJO, it might be difficult to produce good yields on that a/c type.
AirplaneBoy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 609 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8882 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 17): AirplaneBoy!!! How is it going? I am so glad to see ya still kicking on these boards.
Quoting Mariner (Reply 18): How are you, mate, you haven't posted in a while?
Thank you for the kind words. I can only say the same about you both! I have been incredibly busy with attending school full time and flying. I am happy to report that I will complete my current degree this June and will take a much needed break before attending grad school next year.
I can't believe how fast time flies...I have already been at F9 for nearly four years now and I'm STILL loving it! Great company, great people, and great service. If THAT isn't a testament to what a wonderful company Frontier Airlines is (for someone who is no longer a rookie!), then I don't know what is. It's always disappointing to see the usual armchair CEO's criticizing Menke and F9 for the decisions that are being made at present. Rest assured that I, as an employee, believe wholeheartedly in the what our management team is striving to achieve- SUSTAINED PROFITABILITY. I hope my words don't come across as harshly as they might seem on the web (I'm more soft spoken in person!), but I feel that many folks who don't have a grasp of how our tumultuous (yes- tumultuous) industry operates make assumptions without knowing the industry and/or company in which they criticize. Heck- even aviation consultant Mike Boyd does not convince me most of the time (and he IS NOT always on the money).
Needless to say, every airline in the U.S. (even Southwest) is now looking at ways to minimize costs because our "playing field" has changed for the forseeable future. Here's one example that many others have used: domestic long hauls might have been profitable when oil hovered around $50-$60 a barrel (and even the returns on these flights decreased from the days when fuel was only in the $30 range when I started working for the airlines in early 2004 - Economics 101...plain and simple). With increased competition, AND with fuel in the $100/barrel range, such flights (generally speaking) can no longer sustain profitability. Why not use these aircraft on routes with little or no competition, and are shorter in mileage? When Frontier closed BWI, that aircraft was utilized to add frequencies to other short-haul destinations (i.e. LAS, SLC, PHX, etc.). Hypothetically,each seat might have been sold for the same price on a short-haul as it was for DEN-BWI. This in turn helped to maximize the revenue potential for that particular aircraft (fly 4-6 short hauls with seats selling for the same prices as that of the two daily long-hauls to BWI).
Frontier is currently embarking on a new chapter in its history- the startup of Frontier Airlines Holding's wholly-owned subsidiary Lynx Aviation, the growth of the regional jet fleet (operated by Republic Airlines), as well as the obvious growth in new and existing regional markets. The first A320 is due online soon, with the second ship set to arrive in early March. Although 4 aircraft (A318/A319) are to be sold, the company will only lose 2 mainline aircraft but still retains growth through the new Q400 and E170 fleets.
We all know the saying..."money talks and bull**** walks" - well, it is sooo true in this business. As I previously mentioned, Frontier Airlines is not a company that has the kind of resources and financial capital as does say AirTran or jetBlue. EVERY decision management makes today and in the future MUST be justified and cannot be in haste. There are 6,000 plus employees who are counting on the survival of this airline - this company, and there are also many stockholders who are holding onto their shares because they believe in FRNT. Yes, F9's stock prices have been horrible as of late (well, really since WN announced their foray into the DEN market) .... but most stockholders familiar with the airline industry know that FRNT has always been undervalued. For instance, even when the positive performance of the company is reported, it is not unusual for the price to drop. Why? Some of us, especially Mariner, would like to know.
This is the unfortunate state of affairs in the airline industry. Every penny counts and at the end of the day, whether airline "A" flies to more destinations than airline "B" is irrelevant. It's all about the financials...whoever has the money stays and whoever does not- well, we know what happens then. I believe in Frontier Airlines and although it is sad to see routes/destinations go, Frontier Airlines is adding others that will hopefully improve its earnings. I'm especially excited about the potential for the new regional flying recently announced.
Looking toward the future and thinking of the the 6,000 plus Frontier employees,
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27627 posts, RR: 81
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8824 times:
Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 21): Maybe a switch to an A318 is in order? That could at least help yields a little bit.
One of the problems with Mexico is the low season and I'm sure that applies to Costa Rica as well. While DEN-CUN has always been a stellar performar for Frontier, this is the first year it will stay as daily service during the low season.
Similarly, DEN-SLC, which does great, even as just 1 or 2 x weekly. Frontier used to keep it going as year round - Saturday only - but it's a long way and uses a lot of (expensive) fuel, so this year they are suspending it for three months in low season.
So with DEN-SJO - its a long way and uses a low of (expensive) fuel. So my feeling would be - either cut it back to (say) Saturday only service or drop it altogether for a couple of months.
That's just me, and I don't run the airline. I have no idea what Mr. Menke will decide, but I would be very surprised to see DEN-SJO stay as the 5 x weekly it is now.
Quoting AirplaneBoy (Reply 23): Frontier is currently embarking on a new chapter in its history
All that - and even more, AirplaneBoy. For my money, there is a new sign outside Frontier's door "Under New Management".
Since Mr. Menke took command oil has risen from $70 bbl to $100 bbl. This changes the landscape - routes that might have been profitable before may not be profitable now - and, as you say, every airline out there is struggling to cope with this.
Mr. Menke has met the challenge head on, he is pro-actively working to meet the future and is ruthlessly unsentimental.
There have been a lot of surprises since Mr. Menke took control. I don't think he has done yet. Happily.