Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10298 times:
After first reports last years KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB (by LIPZ Jun 6 2007 in Civil Aviation) KE has now confirmed it will operate ICN-LAX-GRU B772 (260 seats in 3 classes). Flighst will start on 03 June 2008 and operate 3 x week. The flight will first start as LAX-GRU and during the second semester of 2008 will add LAX-ICN leg.
KE will now offer connections from Brazil to Asia via its hub in ICN. Brazilians dont need VISA for Korea, although the stop-over in LAX will require transit visa. This is another new airline in GRU which last year had the addition of EK to DXB nonstop and AC to PEK via MAD.
UAL747 From United States, joined Dec 1999, 6552 posts, RR: 35 Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10296 times:
I wonder why they are doing this via LAX? Would be great if they had freedom rights to pick up pax at LAX but I don't see that happening. I would think ICN-(MidUSA)-GRU would be better positioned for the flight. After all, DFW for example has 4 x flights a week and those flights could utilize the same aircraft to continue to GRU and back to DFW and still keep the same frequencies and utilize the same aircraft for more flights instead of dedicating another 772ER to an already saturated and expensive LAX market with higher landing fees and tighter slots, and less adequate facilities.
UAL747 From United States, joined Dec 1999, 6552 posts, RR: 35 Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10252 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): I suppose the 777 will be more economic then 747 used prior, however now there is the added complication of visas which did not exist in the 90s.
Yup, sad but true....the JAL NRT-JFK-GRU flight still works well, however.
The only way to get around it would be to do something like ICN-YVR/YYZ-GRU or ICN-TIJ-GRU, the latter being less attractive, and MEX probably being out of the question.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10225 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): So they are reintroducing what they dropped back in 2001.
Correct, but back 7 years ago the flight also had a stop over in LIM, which made it less competitive.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1): I wonder why they are doing this via LAX?
There is not West coast-Brazil nonstop service at the moment. It is expected that TAM could also start LAX-GRU daily nonstop by end of 2008, but nothing confirmed yet.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1): After all, DFW for example has 4 x flights a week and those flights could continue to GRU and back to DFW
LAX would be more competitive since there is no service US West coast-Brazil at the moment. KE was also examining the possibilty of operating ICN-MIA-GRU but this would be more complex since it would add two new destinations in the same flight.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2): I suppose the 777 will be more economic then 747 used prior, however now there is the added complication of visas which did not exist in the 90s.
The US visa issue seems to be less of a problem now since demand for US-Brazl has been very strong lately. This explains why KE will start the flight as LAX-GRU only and later in 2008 as ICN-LAX-GRU.
In terms of connections from Brazil to Asia, KE will have a lot of competition with European airlines (no VISA requited for Europe, UK and Switzerland), plus the fact that EK now also operates in GRU, AC has its own metal flying from GRU to PEK, and finally JAL still flies its metal from GRU to NRT B747.
GRU is really becoming a major airport with plenty of service for a multitude of destinations.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10210 times:
Thanks, you are correct. I think I confused with RG which operated to NRT via LIM for a brief period;
One correction above is that presently LAN flies GRU-LAX but the service has a stop over in LIM. It means that KE will operate the first nonstop service between US West Coast and Brazil - in case TAM does not start its own service GRU-LAX nonstop before June 2008!
MaverickM11 From United States, joined Apr 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 51 Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10193 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4): Correct, but back 7 years ago the flight also had a stop over in LIM, which made it less competitive.
UAL747 From United States, joined Dec 1999, 6552 posts, RR: 35 Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10106 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4): LAX would be more competitive since there is no service US West coast-Brazil at the moment. KE was also examining the possibilty of operating ICN-MIA-GRU but this would be more complex since it would add two new destinations in the same flight.
Yes, BUT, do they have the rights to take on passengers at LAX? Those rights are hard to get in the US, and there is only one other flight I can think of that has them, and that is JFK-GRU on JAL, but that's probably evolved due to the fact that there are lots of US based airlines with 5th freedom rights through NRT to other destinations all over Asia. Not the same with ICN.
The stop would only be a technical stop, and would not take on LAX-GRU bound pax. Now, people could exit LAX, and perhaps fly onward to GRU another day, but US citizens would not be able to book LAX-GRU unless KE got some new rights I didn't know about, which is why I'm saying that DFW would be a better choice as we already have the base to support a 4x weekly flight between ICN-DFW, therefore, why not keep the plane in the western hemisphere and send it on to GRU from DFW 3x week like they are planning with LAX, and first, save about 300 nm, lower landing fees, better facilities, etc. The only other place I could think of is ATL, but I think they have 7x weekly service, so you wouldn't have an extra 777 laying around on that route. It would also save them from having to displace several 777s to do LAX-GRU route.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10075 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Very good news, one more link Asia-São Paulo ! But hard to compete against EK for Asia with two stops (including the required immigration in LAX). Lets see, but i have doubts about the performance of this flight for connections, seems to be it will be strong on GRU-LAX with some passengers to South Korea.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): No was nonstop LAX-GRU departing the afternoon.
And probably will be another flight departing in the afternoon as KE15 arrives by 2PM at LAX. I believe it's the aircraft to be used on the LAX-GRU flight.
Funny that the aircraft probably comes from ICN and make no sense to not offer ICN (as well as one thing it's 5th freedom another is to offer a sole LAX-GRU flight).
Probably it hurts the plans for a JJ flight GRU-LAX.
RJ_Delta From Chile, joined Oct 2000, 1897 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10051 times:
Any confirmation to expand the Korean Air Cargo network to Santiago (SCL)? According Ken Choi ex director of KAL Cargo the plans want to expand the cargo network including Sao Paulo and Santiago as new destination.
One plan for 2008 is to develop Latin American traffic through the Miami gateway. Sao Paulo and Santiago are possible destinations, said Choi.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10018 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
Yes, BUT, do they have the rights to take on passengers at LAX?
Yes.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): Those rights are hard to get in the US, and there is only one other flight I can think of that has them, and that is JFK-GRU on JAL,
They are not hard to get at all. AR has full 5th freedom on Miami-Brazil, as does LAB.
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4423 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10001 times:
If Korean have 5th freedoms on LAX-GRU, will Delta codeshare on this leg as part of their LAX focus city?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9997 times:
Quoting Humberside (Reply 15): If Korean have 5th freedoms on LAX-GRU, will Delta codeshare on this leg as part of their LAX focus city?
That isn't automatic. Codeshare rights must be applied for, and will not necessarily be approved. For example, DL was rejected after attempting to codeshare with AF on MIA-PAP.
LAXdude1023 From United States, joined Sep 2006, 4447 posts, RR: 22 Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9939 times:
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3984 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9849 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): Yes, BUT, do they have the rights to take on passengers at LAX? Those rights are hard to get in the US, and there is only one other flight I can think of that has them, and that is JFK-GRU on JAL, but that's probably evolved due to the fact that there are lots of US based airlines with 5th freedom rights through NRT to other destinations all over Asia. Not the same with ICN.
Yes they do, and no those right are not at all hard to get. There are countless airlines who have them. Virtually every Asian carrier operating to the US via Europe. You can buy a JFK-FRA ticket on SQ for example.
Misbeehavin From United States, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9815 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 20): Yes they do, and no those right are not at all hard to get. There are countless airlines who have them. Virtually every Asian carrier operating to the US via Europe. You can buy a JFK-FRA ticket on SQ for example.
I think it was usually only LHR that was the problem when the Asian carriers wanted to fly from Asia to JFK or wherever through LHR. Any idea if open skies will ease those restrictions?
Yes, BUT, do they have the rights to take on passengers at LAX?
Yes.
Thanks Mark
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter): ICN-LAX-GRU B772 (260 seats in 3 classes). Flighst will start on 03 June 2008 and operate 3 x week. The flight will first start as LAX-GRU and during the second semester of 2008 will add LAX-ICN leg.
Do we know which days of the week this flight will operate?
GatiBOSGRU From Brazil, joined Oct 2007, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9688 times:
You Snooze, You Lose !!!
The GRU-LAX leg should have been served way before by a Brazilian or American carrier. Hope that route preforms well !!! Good luck JJ if they decide to start that same route !!!
Great to see more airlines investing and flying to Brazil !!!
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9639 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4): There is not West coast-Brazil nonstop service at the moment. It is expected that TAM could also start LAX-GRU daily nonstop by end of 2008, but nothing confirmed yet.
TAM announced MIA-MAO service after Copa announced their service to Manaus. Who knows, the Korean announcement may function as an enticement for TAM to go ahead and compete at LAX.
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9607 times:
Great news!
I fly this route several times per year and taking the old RG route from LAX-GRU-GIG was always the best. Does KE have any codeshare agreements with any Brazilian carriers serving GRU-GIG? Will it be possible to book a KE ticket LAX-GRU-GIG?
Anyone know what days/times this new flight will operate?
EBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10054 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3): JAL NRT-JFK-GRU flight still works well, however.
I wonder if these flights has any link to sex tourism. It is well known that a lot of sex tourists originate from Japan or South Korea and Brazil is one of the typical sex tourist destinations. Hope no one will get offended here.
If that's the case then it would be quite bad PR for those airlines who facilitates such tours.
SRT75 From United States, joined Jul 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10020 times:
This should be a good route for KE, as LAX-Brazil non-stop has been non-existent since RG folded.
But as far as GRU-ICN, two observations. First, this flight is going the "wrong" way. A shorter route would be GRU-LHR-ICN (or GRU-Europe-ICN). By going west, the flight adds about 7% to length.
Second, the visa problem with a LAX stoppover could be a huge headache. Also, you are required to de-board, go through customs, and re-enter security if transiting through LAX.
How much Brazil-Korea traffic is there, and would this routing beat out the alternatives?
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10006 times:
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 27): I wonder if these flights has any link to sex tourism. It is well known that a lot of sex tourists originate from Japan or South Korea and Brazil is one of the typical sex tourist destinations.
Oh yes, I'm sure Korean Air is starting service to Brazil so they can market it to the masses as their newest destination for sex tourism. Are you serious?
Sao Paulo has the largest population of Japanese people outside of Japan and a rapidly growing Korean population as well. I'm sure the new flight will do well with the Samsung, Daewoo, and Hyundai execs.
EBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9969 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 29): they can market it to the masses as their newest destination for sex tourism. Are you serious?
Of course they wouldn't market it as such. Do you think they market the ICN-CRK flight as one? Not really, but there certainly is a link (not saying all passengers are targeting this).
Next flights: CPH-ARN-CPH (B737), CPH-BRU-CPH (MD80/A321)
Fly2YYZ From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2006, 515 posts, RR: 2 Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9912 times:
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 30): Of course they wouldn't market it as such. Do you think they market the ICN-CRK flight as one? Not really, but there certainly is a link (not saying all passengers are targeting this).
Well then I'm sure if you had done more research you would find that the Philippines are becoming a place that Koreans are retiring. Also Clark being a special economic zone of the Philippines it does attract many investors as well...foreign investment is huge in the region since Arroyo pushed a law into effect to regenerate the region in 2007.
EBGflyer From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9841 times:
Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 31): Well then I'm sure if you had done more research you would find that the Philippines are becoming a place that Koreans are retiring. Also Clark being a special economic zone of the Philippines it does attract many investors as well...foreign investment is huge in the region since Arroyo pushed a law into effect to regenerate the region in 2007.
I know that. If you read my post thoroughly I'm just wondering if there is a link. Not saying everyone on board is hopping the clubs of Angeles City.
Next flights: CPH-ARN-CPH (B737), CPH-BRU-CPH (MD80/A321)
RG's route was GRU-LIM-LAX-NRT. Didn't VASP fly GRU-LAX-ICN (I think it was Kimpo in the past)? It started 3 weekly down to once weekly, what happened to all 3 major airlines in Brazil (Varig, VASP, TransBrazil[awesome livery])? Did they all disappear? Can anyone elaborate?
UAL747 From United States, joined Dec 1999, 6552 posts, RR: 35 Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9621 times:
Well great! I'm glad Korean have the rights to fly LAX-GRU, it will indeed be a VERY luctrative route, not only as a route for Californians to Brazil, but for the many Asians living in Brazil! Still wish it were through DFW, but hey, gotta give Korean props for tapping into an untapped market since Varig! Kudos! I have a huge love for Korean Air for some reason. I think it is because it's the only Asian carrier to service DFW, my international airport of choice, and having used them across the Pacific to China, their 744's are just wonderful, or were in 2001, with seat pitch in economy! On the DFW-ICN flight, I was asked by an f/a if I could pull up my ECONOMY SEAT! so the person behind me could eat their dinner! I couldn't believe how far those things went back! Though, IFE would have been nice on a 13 hour flight!, HEHE! (And I think they have one of the best color schemes in the sky!)
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9440 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 37): Does anyone have the load factors for the JAL flight JFK-GRU for 2007/08?
I was in it a few years ago NRT-JFK-GRU and the plane was half full. It is just a single trip but if the flight was profitable they would have already tried to increase frequency.
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 1897 posts, RR: 5 Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9358 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3): The only way to get around it would be to do something like ICN-YVR/YYZ-GRU or ICN-TIJ-GRU, the latter being less attractive, and MEX probably being out of the question.
Technically, the 777 is not capable to make MEX-ICN as non-stop without payload penalties regarding the altitude in MEX.
Some examples to support that sentence are AM MEX-TIJ-NRT 2x weekly and AM MEX-TIJ-PVG soon. Both operations served with 777 equipment.
.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4): In terms of connections from Brazil to Asia, KE will have a lot of competition with European airlines (no VISA requited for Europe, UK and Switzerland),
SkyTeam global system is capable to operate daily AF GRU-CDG and then AF/KE CDG-ICN. Schedules fit perfectly to allow comfortable connections through CDG.
It also should be noted that KE and AF code-share operations between CDG and ICN.
The most interesting fact is concerning to compare the trip heading either eastbound or westbound. The current choice is shorter than the forthcoming KE GRU-LAX and then KE LAX-ICN.
Option 1
AF GRU-CDG: 5065 nm
KE/AF CDG-ICN: 4832 nm
Total: 9897 nm **
Option 2
KE GRU-LAX: 5350 nm
KE LAX-ICN: 5209 nm
Total: 10 559 nm **
** Based on Great Circle Mapper. Distances have been measured as straight line. This information may not be accurate or current and is not valid for navigation or flight planning.
By the way, other possibilities are available to link GRU to ICN nowadays.
.
Quoting AF022 (Reply 36): RG operated this route, once per week. But it also operated GRU-LAX-NRT and GRU-LAX-NGO without the LIM stop far more frequently.
Correct. I have with myself the VARIG's timetable [edited: March 1993], due to in those days RG flew to my hometown: San Jose, Costa Rica.
Let me quote the comprehensive routes:
RG 832....GIG-GRU-LIM-LAX-NRT....74D.....Once a week
RG 836....GIG-GRU-LAX-NRT..........743..... Twice a week
RG 834....GIG-GRU-LAX-NRT..........743......Once a week
RG 838....GIG-GRU-LAX-NGO.........743......Once a week.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1833 posts, RR: 16 Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9337 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 38): It is just a single trip but if the flight was profitable they would have already tried to increase frequency.
Well, it's hard to keep it profitable, when the route needs almost four planes to be flown. When an aircraft leaves NRT on Sunday and only returns on Wednesday, things get difficult.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8967 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12): Very good news, one more link Asia-São Paulo ! But hard to compete against EK for Asia with two stops (including the required immigration in LAX). Lets see, but i have doubts about the performance of this flight for connections, seems to be it will be strong on GRU-LAX with some passengers to South Korea.
I think the flight has all ingredients to work and I am sure KE did its homework before lauching the route. KE has an excellent onboard product and the winner is Brazil which will have another top carrier landing in GRU.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 12): Probably it hurts the plans for a JJ flight GRU-LAX.
There is no doubt about it. And as I mentioned, KE has an excellent onboard product which will make it hard for TAM to compete. I have sources from Korea that mentioned that KE was "rushing" to operate the flight in order to preclude any move by TAM.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): Yes, BUT, do they have the rights to take on passengers at LAX? Those rights are hard to get in the US
YES. KE would have full 5th freedom rights for LAX.
Quoting GatiBOSGRU (Reply 23): Great to see more airlines investing and flying to Brazil !!!
In 2007 we had EK GRU-DXB and AC PEK-MAD-GRU.
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 27): I wonder if these flights has any link to sex tourism. It is well known that a lot of sex tourists originate from Japan or South Korea and Brazil is one of the typical sex tourist destinations
This is rubish.
Just to give you some information of Korean investment in Brazil, the following Korean companies have production plants in Brazil: Daewoo, LG, Samsung, SK, Hyundai, POSCO (USD1 billion investment in co-operation with Eletrobras).
In addition, there is a substantive community of Korean living in Brazil (although in smaller number than the Japanese). Different from the Japanese, which arrived in Sao Paulo at the turn of the century, the Korean migrated to Brazil in the early 60s. The Korean community in Brazil is responsibel for 40% of Brazil's textile production. Most of Korean living in Brazil are in Sao Paulo in the area of Bom Retiro, where the Korean school is located, Aclimação and Liberdade. There are 1,000 supermarkets of Korean food in Sao Paulo alone.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 29): Sao Paulo has the largest population of Japanese people outside of Japan and a rapidly growing Korean population as well. I'm sure the new flight will do well with the Samsung, Daewoo, and Hyundai execs.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 37): Does anyone have the load factors for the JAL flight JFK-GRU for 2007/08?
Nimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 2714 posts, RR: 9 Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8965 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter): The flight will first start as LAX-GRU and during the second semester of 2008 will add LAX-ICN leg.
What am I missing here? Will KE position a 777 in LAX and operate only the LAX-GRU-LAX sectors for a few months without the corresponding ICN-LAX-ICN sectors?
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8903 times:
Quoting Nimish (Reply 46): What am I missing here? Will KE position a 777 in LAX and operate only the LAX-GRU-LAX sectors for a few months without the corresponding ICN-LAX-ICN sectors?
The B772 to operate LAX-GRU will be a continuation of ICN-LAX. Apparently KE decided to start LAX-GRU first instead of ICN-LAX-GRU. In my opinion GRU will be a continuation of KE 015/KE 016 which operates 3 x weekly.
Interesting to note that in KE press release dated 01 February 2008 KE announces it will open GRU and MUC as new routes in 2008. GRU is now confirmed.
SEOUL, Korea (February 1, 2008) – Korean Air, the flagship carrier of South Korea, today announced its 2007 fourth quarter results for the three months ended December 31, 2007. Operating revenue increased by 8.9% to 2,302 billion Korean won as compared to 2,115 billion Korean won for the same period last year. Korean Air concluded 2007 with a full year operating revenue of 8,812 billion won and an operating income of 637 billion won, representing an increase of 9.1% and 28.0% respectively, mainly driven by the growth in international passenger and cargo revenue.
In 2008, Korean Air will continue to focus on profitability enhancement by increasing sales in the premium passenger sector, expanding international markets and developing new routes such as Sao Paulo and Munich.
LACA773 From United States, joined Nov 2004, 2056 posts, RR: 3 Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8802 times:
Do any of our Brazilian friends have any idea what this will do to JJ's plans on starting service to LAX? Is there a possiblilty they will fly the route on opposite days that KE doesnt'? Just a thought....
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1833 posts, RR: 16 Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8715 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 47):
The B772 to operate LAX-GRU will be a continuation of ICN-LAX. Apparently KE decided to start LAX-GRU first instead of ICN-LAX-GRU. In my opinion GRU will be a continuation of KE 015/KE 016 which operates 3 x weekly.
What you're saying does not make sense at all. You're just perpetuating the mistake of that idiot pseudo-journalist at Panrotas. There is no way of starting LAX-GRU without a ICN-LAX leg, even if the the flight number is different, but that would not be possible AFAIK, since they do not hold 7th freedom rights between the US and Brazil.
I dont know the journalist in question, therefore I would reserve any comments regarding his persona. I do read his posts, which I think are relevant for aviation news though.
Quoting LACA773 (Reply 48): Do any of our Brazilian friends have any idea what this will do to JJ's plans on starting service to LAX?
In case JJ starts the route it would operate daily, which would give TAM an advantage. However, taking into account that KE would operate with its new configurated aircraft to Brazil (all LAX flights have the new product), this would put TAM in a difficult situation. TAM product may look good as compared to US carriers, but it is a far cry in relation to KE or some other Asian and European carriers.
KE currently operates 24 weekly flights to LAX (17 weekly nonstop and 7 weekly via NRT) and it could place a continuation code to any of these to GRU, which means that KE "virtually" could operate LAX-GRU daily. The indication, however, is that KE would use for GRU its current KE015/016 B772 3 weekly.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8466 times:
Quoting BCA2005 (Reply 32): KE will join BA, EK, MH and SA in being the only airlines flying to all continents (except Antarctica ofcourse!).
KE still does not fly to Africa. KE had plans for NBO in 2008 (now shelved due to the policatical situation) and JNB, which would certainly not open before 2009.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3984 posts, RR: 9 Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8455 times:
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 49): There is no way of starting LAX-GRU without a ICN-LAX leg, even if the the flight number is different, but that would not be possible AFAIK, since they do not hold 7th freedom rights between the US and Brazil.
Yes it is possible. I think what he means is that KE won't be selling through tickets ICN-LAX-GRU. At first you will only be able to buy ICN-LAX and LAX-GRU.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8415 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 52): Yes it is possible. I think what he means is that KE won't be selling through tickets ICN-LAX-GRU. At first you will only be able to buy ICN-LAX and LAX-GRU.
You are right and KE also wants to allow its GRU-LAX to allow for smooth connection for its LAX-NRT B747 nonstop. In other words, KE would not only capture the LAX-GRU O&D market but also use LAX for connetions to both ICN and NRT. From ICN, KE would provide connetions to other destinations. It seems that the route combining LAX, Korea and Japan has the ingredients to provide good results.
Ktachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8357 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 53): From ICN, KE would provide connetions to other destinations
Yeah, but who would? I mean GRU-JFK-NRT was actually closer proven by some other a.net member a couple of months ago on the Great Circle Mapper. From ICN, I could see it happening, but if you are traveling to Southeast Asia for example, why not fly the other way and go to Europe and take a flight from there? Then the visa requirements are laxed. I only think this will attract the families of those immigrants and several Korean MNCs execs.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7942 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 50): KE currently operates 24 weekly flights to LAX (17 weekly nonstop and 7 weekly via NRT) and it could place a continuation code to any of these to GRU, which means that KE "virtually" could operate LAX-GRU daily. The indication, however, is that KE would use for GRU its current KE015/016 B772 3 weekly.
By the way there is that usual obstacle to Korean operating daily to Brazil - ANAC. The bilateral only allows flights 3 times a week. Thus the adequate supply of a travel product between Brazil and Korea by Brazilian and Korean airlines is subject to the whims of an idiot sitting behind a desk in Brasilia, who is "safeguarding" the marketplace. Meanwhile, other airlines from North America, Europe and Asia can offer dozens of daily services connecting through their respective countries. The Raj bureaucracy lives on... in Brazil.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7899 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 56): has KE dropped Cairo ? last time I checked that was on the African continent
You are right, although some would argue! Just kidding. CAI is served by KE but included in KE world map as a Middle Eastern destination.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 55): By the way there is that usual obstacle to Korean operating daily to Brazil - ANAC. The bilateral only allows flights 3 times a week. Thus the adequate supply of a travel product between Brazil and Korea by Brazilian and Korean airlines is subject to the whims of an idiot sitting behind a desk in Brasilia, who is "safeguarding" the marketplace. Meanwhile, other airlines from North America, Europe and Asia can offer dozens of daily services connecting through their respective countries. The Raj bureaucracy lives on... in Brazil.
You are totally right, though I personally think KE intention is to operate 3 weekly service. I dont know which burocracy is more lost in their busienss whether ANAC or INFRAZERO...the latest news in INFRAZERO is the CPQ/CVP will now become South America's biggest hub....
Kiwiandrew From Mauritius, joined Jun 2005, 5547 posts, RR: 17 Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7863 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 51): KE still does not fly to Africa.
for some reason the edit function isnt working so couldnt add to my previous post , but I just checked KE schedules and they still fly ICN-CAI three times per week so the new ICN-LAX-GRU flight will put KE in the '6 continent club'
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1833 posts, RR: 16 Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7551 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 52):
Yes it is possible. I think what he means is that KE won't be selling through tickets ICN-LAX-GRU. At first you will only be able to buy ICN-LAX and LAX-GRU.
Last time I checked, the 5th freedom rights do not include all the seats of each flight. There is a limit for KE when selling LAX-GRU and GRU-LAX. I'm sure that KE won't start a route, when they are only allowed to sell 50% of the seats.
United Airline From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Jan 2001, 7841 posts, RR: 25 Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7541 times:
Wonder if CX and SQ will fly to South/Central America
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4423 posts, RR: 7 Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7233 times:
Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 21): Quoting Airbazar (Reply 20):
Yes they do, and no those right are not at all hard to get. There are countless airlines who have them. Virtually every Asian carrier operating to the US via Europe. You can buy a JFK-FRA ticket on SQ for example.
I think it was usually only LHR that was the problem when the Asian carriers wanted to fly from Asia to JFK or wherever through LHR. Any idea if open skies will ease those restrictions?
AFAIK it depends on the agreement between the Asian country and the UK, and the Asian country and the US. And of course LHR slot availability is a big issue
AF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1828 posts, RR: 2 Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7220 times:
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 41): Well, it's hard to keep it profitable, when the route needs almost four planes to be flown. When an aircraft leaves NRT on Sunday and only returns on Wednesday, things get difficult.
Especially when the aircraft sits all day on the ground in GRU. JL's aircraft spends about 15 hours on the ground at GRU, a horrible waste of resources.
KE will probably suffer the same fate if it tries to schedule the flight to connect with its flight to/from NRT.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6817 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 45): I think the flight has all ingredients to work and I am sure KE did its homework before lauching the route. KE has an excellent onboard product and the winner is Brazil which will have another top carrier landing in GRU.
The flight could work for KE just because the demand for US services is high right now.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 45): In 2007 we had EK GRU-DXB and AC PEK-MAD-GRU.
Allow me to correct, CA service, not AC.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 52): Yes it is possible. I think what he means is that KE won't be selling through tickets ICN-LAX-GRU
KE is now an american or Brazilian carrier ? How could it use US frequencies ?
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6807 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 64): The flight could work for KE just because the demand for US services is high right now.
The flight will work because of a number of reasons, inter alia, strong demand for US-Brazil flights; lack of nonstop service between US West Coast and Brazil; another gateway from GRU to ICN allowing for connections to Asia; KE excellent product; another Star Alliance member in GRU (DL, CO, CM, KL, AF, AM, AZ) expanding Sky pax base in Brazil; corporate traffic Brazil-Korea; ICN excellent hub (one of the best in the world).
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 64): Allow me to correct, CA service, not AC.
As a matter of fact, both (AC and CA) operate in GRU!
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 64): 1h turn around at LAX ? Impossible considering immigration, and basic procedures. Need to depart GRU early.
KE could also operate GRU-LAX red-eye, but it would mean missing the strong KE intra-Asia connection bank in ICN. Of course, by contrast, GRU-LAX daylight would certainly undermine yields.
Ktachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6789 times:
Quoting United Airline (Reply 60): Wonder if CX and SQ will fly to South/Central America
I think ORD would happen for CX before they go to GRU. As for SQ, I clearly don't see the benefit since they try to feed their area as a hub, but won't realistically happen unless pax are coming in from SE Asia or somewhere nearby. Why not transfer at NRT or ICN to Brazil since they are already operating?
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3984 posts, RR: 9 Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6773 times:
Quoting AF022 (Reply 62): Especially when the aircraft sits all day on the ground in GRU. JL's aircraft spends about 15 hours on the ground at GRU, a horrible waste of resources.
And how long do BA/AF/LH and just about every other carrier's aircraft, sit on the ground at GRU? AFAIK, TP is the only major foreign carrier that has a quick turn around at GRU.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6751 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 67): And how long do BA/AF/LH and just about every other carrier's aircraft, sit on the ground at GRU? AFAIK, TP is the only major foreign carrier that has a quick turn around at GRU.
KL also has a quick turn-around in GRU (about 2h only). And you are right, all major carriers seat their plane in GRU for the whole day in order to capture the re-eye yields.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6735 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 67): And how long do BA/AF/LH and just about every other carrier's aircraft, sit on the ground at GRU? AFAIK, TP is the only major foreign carrier that has a quick turn around at GRU.
AF and IB second flights are with immediate turn-around. Only LH, AZ, AF and IB use to stay on ground for a long time (4 planes). BA in fact runs tags to both GIG and EZE as well as LX to SCL. And all four airlines runs afternoon departures.
Nothing compared to US Airlines (CO, AA, DL and UA) that keep more than 10 planes in Brazil during the entire day for late night departures.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 65): The flight will work because of a number of reasons, inter alia, strong demand for US-Brazil flights; lack of nonstop service between US West Coast and Brazil; another gateway from GRU to ICN allowing for connections to Asia; KE excellent product; another Star Alliance member in GRU (DL, CO, CM, KL, AF, AM, AZ) expanding Sky pax base in Brazil; corporate traffic Brazil-Korea; ICN excellent hub (one of the best in the world).
Agree about the demand for West Coast and US-Brazil flights. As i pointed out above, ICN could be a marvellous hub but i doubt a passenger to China or Asia will accept a connection, immigration at LAX for a longer flight than EK or thru Europe with single connection and easy immigration without the need of a visa.
Corporate traffic Brazil-Korea is not so strong. Will be the third attempt to offer this link, and no one never get a good result, and the investment base does not changed a lot. Both countries are competitors not complimentary economies and there is no financial cooperation, there is no strong government traffic
I believe the flight will perform very well because of the currency level (R$ to US$) which will generate a huge traffic for the São Paulo-Los Angeles leg. Again, i expect that São Paulo-Seoul will be not so strong.
As a side note, i believe you tried to write it's a SkyTeam member, not Star Alliance.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 65): Of course, by contrast, GRU-LAX daylight would certainly undermine yields.
With tha lack of flights to US, even a daylight GRU-LAX will be a winner.
* I still have my doubts whether KE would operate GRU-LAX daylight considering that KE has a strong focus on corporate, high yielding pax.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 69): Agree about the demand for West Coast and US-Brazil flights. As i pointed out above, ICN could be a marvellous hub but i doubt a passenger to China or Asia will accept a connection, immigration at LAX for a longer flight than EK or thru Europe with single connection and easy immigration without the need of a visa.
Lipe, but also take into account that most corporate, government or high yielding pax already have a US visa and wouldnt face problems connecting in LAX.
In addition, KE has a very solid tradition as a top quality airline flying between US and Asia. This explains why KE is the number 1 carrier between Asia and the US. KE operates ICN nonstop flights to JFK, LAX, ATL , SFO, SEA, IAD, ORD, LAS, HNL, ANC and more recently DFW. It has a very well established reputation in the US.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 69): Corporate traffic Brazil-Korea is not so strong. Will be the third attempt to offer this link, and no one never get a good result, and the investment base does not changed a lot. Both countries are competitors not complimentary economies and there is no financial cooperation, there is no strong government traffic
Agreed. However, much has changed since KE dropped GRU about 7 years ago. Brazil and Korea economy are both stronger. And Korean investment in Brazil is not irrelevant.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 69): With tha lack of flights to US, even a daylight GRU-LAX will be a winner.
Again, KE has a tradition of serving high-yielding pax and therefore I would not be surprised if the decide to operate GRU-LAX red-eye. But then we also have to take into account arrival time in ICN and the best arrival bank would be early morning (meaning departing GRU in the morning) which is when KE has plenty of ICN-intra Asia flights.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3984 posts, RR: 9 Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6691 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 70): Agreed. However, much has changed since KE dropped GRU about 7 years ago. Brazil and Korea economy are both stronger. And Korean investment in Brazil is not irrelevant.
Exactly. What's driving this expansion of foreign carriers in Brazil is the strong Brazilian economy. KE is not the only carrier interested in capitalizing on this. Virtually every carrier that currently serves Brazil is increasing service or wishes they could increase service.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6660 times:
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 71): Exactly. What's driving this expansion of foreign carriers in Brazil is the strong Brazilian economy. KE is not the only carrier interested in capitalizing on this. Virtually every carrier that currently serves Brazil is increasing service or wishes they could increase service.
Correct, but the downfall of RG played a role as foreign carriers quickly tried to fill RG's gap. But you are right that the rebound of the Brazilian economy is an important force. In addition, we have the following aspects: 1) stronger Brazilian currency, as mentioned by Lipe; 2) US carriers are operating at their limit according to Brazil-US bilateral and cannot increase frequencies (except seasonal); 4) not negligible Korean investment in Brazil, as mentioned: Dongkuk, Daewoo, LG, Samsung, SK, Hyundai, Posco. We cannot forget that an air link Brazil-Korea would connect the world's number 9 and 11 economy respectively.
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 1897 posts, RR: 5 Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6382 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 65): KE excellent product; another Star Alliance member in GRU (DL, SA)">CO, CM, KL, AF, AM, AZ) expanding Sky pax base in Brazil;
The participation of KE will increase the presence of SkyTeam into GRU: Delta, Continental, CM, KL, AF, AM, AZ and KE soon.
However, Star Alliance may take advantage in the future given the imminent huge participation of JJ there. The current services offered by Star Alliance into GRU are supplied by: AC, CA, United, SA, LX, TP and LH.
LH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6317 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 69): AF and IB second flights are with immediate turn-around. Only LH, AZ, AF and IB use to stay on ground for a long time (4 planes). BA in fact runs tags to both GIG and EZE as well as LX to SCL. And all four airlines runs afternoon departures.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6283 times:
Quoting LH506 (Reply 74): LHs MUC flight also turns around immediately.
As end of May 2008 LH flight MUC-GRU will revert to red-eye operations seating in GRU for 7h:
MUC GRU 21h45 05h15
GRU MUC 12h50 05h30
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 73): The participation of KE will increase the presence of SkyTeam into GRU: Delta, Continental, CM, KL, AF, AM, AZ and KE soon.
SkyTeam member SU already operated in GRU so perhaps they could come back in the future.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6242 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 75): As end of May 2008 LH flight MUC-GRU will revert to red-eye operations seating in GRU for 7h:
MUC GRU 21h45 05h15
GRU MUC 12h50 05h30
Which is a terrible schedule for the GRU-MUC. The FRA will be even better with late afternoon. To depart by 12:50 you need to be at the airport by 1050 which means you will use your entire day travelling.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 72): Correct, but the downfall of RG played a role as foreign carriers quickly tried to fill RG's gap
The problem is that, almost all of them tried at the same time.
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 71): Exactly. What's driving this expansion of foreign carriers in Brazil is the strong Brazilian economy. KE is not the only carrier interested in capitalizing on this. Virtually every carrier that currently serves Brazil is increasing service or wishes they could increase service
What is strong is the domestic market. Imports are growing but exports not (only those like iron ore and oil which demands vessels). Which Brazil demands is not to concentrate so much as nowadays, and mostly airlines does not understand this. At least TP understands ! Airlines need to understand the market is changing and ANAC is very clear refusing services and not allowing new services for example at GRU. ANAC has refused Webjet to offer POA-GRU as well as G3 to offer a new GRU-REC-JPA service.
In the other hand JJ is adding NAT-SSA-BSB-MAO domestic service. And guess what... with marvellous yields. Probably with this JJ early morning GIG-BSB-MAO will become GIG-BSB and GIG-MAO independent services.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6204 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 76): Which is a terrible schedule for the GRU-MUC. The FRA will be even better with late afternoon. To depart by 12:50 you need to be at the airport by 1050 which means you will use your entire day travelling.
The early arrival in MUC will be good for connections intra-Europe and long-haul. However, more importantly, the early arrival in GRU is vital as it means a perfect full business day in Sao Paulo or the chance to use GRU hub for connections in South America and Brazil.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 76): Imports are growing but exports not (only those like iron ore and oil which demands vessels).
Domestic demand is fueling Brazilian growth, not exports! The decrease in exports was more than compensated by influx of foreign direct investment - January was a strong month for foreign direct investment again. The current account is going into red, however, the capital account is strongly in the black. For the first time Brazil became a net creditor with the rest of the world this year. Foreign reserves stand at almost USD 200 billion.
Brazil's economy also is a factor driving the expansion of capacity of airlines, no doubt. With or without RG airlines would add capacity.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 76): Which Brazil demands is not to concentrate so much as nowadays, and mostly airlines does not understand this. At least TP understands ! Airlines need to understand the market is changing and ANAC is very clear refusing services and not allowing new services for example at GRU. ANAC has refused Webjet to offer POA-GRU as well as G3 to offer a new GRU-REC-JPA service.
In the other hand JJ is adding NAT-SSA-BSB-MAO domestic service. And guess what... with marvellous yields. Probably with this JJ early morning GIG-BSB-MAO will become GIG-BSB and GIG-MAO independent services.
As long as other routes are profitable airlines will add services to these destinations. TAM increased GRU-SSA to 7 daily frequencies. Airlines fly where they are profitable and make money!
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10972 posts, RR: 13 Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6194 times:
Quoting SRT75 (Reply 28): But as far as GRU-ICN, two observations. First, this flight is going the "wrong" way. A shorter route would be GRU-LHR-ICN (or GRU-Europe-ICN). By going west, the flight adds about 7% to length.
But do they have 5th freedom rights between any of their European destinations and Brazil? And based on other threads, there seems to be overcapacity on Europe-GRU routes now, at least based on all the low fares being offered from Europe.
I believe RG's original service to Japan was GIG-LIM-LAX-HND (later NRT) and was more than once a week. I flew RG LAX-LIM-GIG on a 707 in the mid 1970s. The flight originated Tokyo and if memory correct was 3 per week then.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 51): Quoting BCA2005 (Reply 32):
KE will join BA, EK, MH and SA in being the only airlines flying to all continents (except Antarctica ofcourse!).
KE still does not fly to Africa.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 57): Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 56):
has KE dropped Cairo ? last time I checked that was on the African continent
You are right, although some would argue! Just kidding. CAI is served by KE but included in KE world map as a Middle Eastern destination.
Didn't KE also serve Libya (Tripoli) at one time? I vaguely recall KE operating the DC-10-30 to TIP. There were a couple of other intermediate stops.
Kiwiandrew From Mauritius, joined Jun 2005, 5547 posts, RR: 17 Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6189 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 78): Didn't KE also serve Libya (Tripoli) at one time? I vaguely recall KE operating the DC-10-30 to TIP. There were a couple of other intermediate stops.
correct , in fact they actually crashed one there back in 1989 - I believe it had enroute stops at BKK and JED on the way
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6192 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 77): , the capital account is strongly in the black. For the first time Brazil became a net creditor with the rest of the world this year. Foreign reserves stand at almost USD 200 billion.
Yes, and today, the Brazilian Real is trading at a 5 year high against the US Dollar. 1 BRL = .5993 US cents or reverse 1 USD = 1.6665 BRL.
It's really unbelievable. Just a few years ago, 1 USD = 3.66 BRL.
My glass of SKOL is getting more and more expensive each day!
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6175 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 78): But do they have 5th freedom rights between any of their European destinations and Brazil?
No! And RG at some time struggled to negotiate 5th freedom rights to NRT via Europe. But currently we have CA PEK-MAD-GRU with 5th freedom rights.
As a matter of fact, CA and EK introduced new services to GRU in 2007 opening two new gateways from GRU: PEK and DXB. EK will increase its 6 x week service to daily in June.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 78): Didn't KE also serve Libya (Tripoli) at one time? I vaguely recall KE operating the DC-10-30 to TIP. There were a couple of other intermediate stops.
KE had to drop many routes back during the Asian financial crisis.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 80): My glass of SKOL is getting more and more expensive each day!
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5994 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 77): The early arrival in MUC will be good for connections intra-Europe and long-haul
Do not change the situation that demands a very early departure from Brazil. The same South American network gets a problem to connect this early flight.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 80): My glass of SKOL is getting more and more expensive each day!
Not only the glass of SKOL but also the Caipirinhas and the Rodizio !
Have a nice trip to GIG ! My next trip to GIG will be only in the end of March.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5878 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 69): a passenger to China or Asia will accept a connection, immigration at LAX for a longer flight than EK or thru Europe with single connection and easy immigration without the need of a visa.
Another interesting feature of KE is that it will provide GRU with a gateway through ICN hub to a number of secondary destinations in China and elsewhere in Asia. While European carriers only serve a number of major destinations in China, KE will offer under one single ticket and carrier connections to 24 Chinese destinations nonstop from ICN. It will certainly open a new gateway to Asia from GRU. In contrast, LH/KL offer connections to only 5 destinations in China.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 83): Do not change the situation that demands a very early departure from Brazil. The same South American network gets a problem to connect this early flight.
I agree, Lipe. However, as I said, the early arrival in GRU is a major benefit which will drive yields upwards. Currently the MUC-GRU flight arrives in GRU at 19h55! There is no doubt that the new schedule of MUC-GRU is a major improvement as it guarantees a full business day in Sao Paulo. The early arrival in MUC also ensures a full day in any intra-European destination. The current flight GRU-MUC arrives in MUC 12h55 which means a wasted business day again!
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5848 times:
The timing of this new flight is interesting. Speculation here in Hawaii is that visa restrictions will be lifted for South Korean citizens visiting the U.S. starting in January of 2009. I would think that KE would want to wait until the restrictions are lifted before starting the new route to GRU. As mentioned in other posts a few months ago, Citizens of Brazil may also fall under the U.S. visa waiver program provided that their visa refusal rate falls at 10% or less. Apparently, the Koreans refusal rate has been at about 3% so they are almost assured of having restrictions lifted making it easier for their citizens to visit the U.S. or to transit in LAX for KE's new service to GRU.
Does anyone know the refusal rate for Brazilians? That would be really great if Brazil could join the U.S. Visa Waiver program. Here is a list of 27 countries that fall under the visa waiver program as well as the 12 more nations whose status could change soon.
Andorra
Australia
Austria
Belgium
Brunei
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Monaco
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
San Marino
Singapore
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
The list soon may grow. Last August, President George Bush signed the Improving America's Security Act of 2007, expanding the program to 12 more countries: South Korea, Taiwan, Argentina, Brazil, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Israel, Malta, Slovakia and Uruguay.
An interesting article on the U.S. lifting visa restrictions for South Korean's is here:
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5793 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 85): Speculation here in Hawaii is that visa restrictions will be lifted for South Korean citizens visiting the U.S. starting in January of 2009
Quoting HALFA (Reply 85): The list soon may grow. Last August, President George Bush signed the Improving America's Security Act of 2007, expanding the program to 12 more countries: South Korea, Taiwan, Argentina, Brazil, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Greece, Israel, Malta, Slovakia and Uruguay.
Thank you for posting this very interesting information. Brazil's visa refusal rate for fiscal year 2007 was 9%, or well above the 3% threshold whereas Korea (South) had a refusal rate of 4%.
The 12 countries included in the "roadmap" group which could be included in the visa waiver program if the threshold is raised to 10%, are:
Argentina,
Brazil,
Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Estonia,
Greece,
Israel,
Malta,
Slovakia,
South Korea,
Taiwan and
Uruguay
(Cyprus, Greece and Malta had already refusal rates less than the original 3%, but were not included in the VWP)
There is no doubt that in case the visa waiver program is extended to Brazil we will see not only a dramatic increase in travel between Brazil and the US but also a substantive increase in the number of Brazilians using the US as connection for Asia and elsewhere. In this case a new bilateral US-Brazil would be essential.
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 1897 posts, RR: 5 Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5621 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 84): While European carriers only serve a number of major destinations in China, KE will offer under one single ticket and carrier connections to 24 Chinese destinations nonstop from ICN.
Some of the direct Chinese destinations supplied from ICN on KE:
PEK Beijing
CSX Changsha
DLC Dalian
CAN Guangzhou
TNA Jinan
KMG Kunming
TAO Qingdao
PVG Shanghai / Pu Dong
SHE Shenyang
SZX Shenzhen
TSN Tianjin
WEH Weihai
YNJ Yanji
CGO Zhengzhou
YNT Yantai
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5447 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 89): Am I the only one who is wondering why this flight hasnt shown up in their system or that there isnt a press release?
Not yet in the system. It should appear soon. The first flight is expected to fly on 03 June 2008.
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 87): Some of the direct Chinese destinations supplied from ICN on KE:
PEK Beijing
CSX Changsha
DLC Dalian
CAN Guangzhou
TNA Jinan
KMG Kunming
TAO Qingdao
PVG Shanghai / Pu Dong
SHE Shenyang
SZX Shenzhen
TSN Tianjin
WEH Weihai
YNJ Yanji
CGO Zhengzhou
YNT Yantai
KE will offer excellent connections to reach China's secondary cities. LH, BA, KL, AF do not serve more than 5 destinations in China while EK introduced its 4th destination in China recently. By contrast, KE will have a clear advantage in this regard as it connects 24 destinations in China nonstop from its hub ICN.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5452 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 88): Quoting GatiBOSGRU (Reply 23):
The GRU-LAX leg should have been served way before by a Brazilian or American carrier.
Total agreement. United should have picked it up as soon as RG folded.
No, they shouldn't have. Yield on LA-Brazil, to put it bluntly, sucks.
Good luck to KE. They shouldn't have much of a problem because they can pick up high yielding GRU-Asia passengers and sell local seats at junk yield, which is all the market can take.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5162 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 91): Yield on LA-Brazil, to put it bluntly, sucks.
I am not so sure. With all flights Brazil-US flying full, high fares, and expansion restrictions because of the limitations of the bilateral, I am sure KE will uncover an interesting niche market. And I do believe that Brazil could at least sustain one nonstop flight to the US West Coast.
"Korean Air will resume the long-awaited 3 weekly Seoul - Los Angeles - Sao Paulo service with 777-200ER from 02JUN08. At the same time, service to Los Angeles on the nonstop service will rise from 17 to 20 weekly.
Seoul - Los Angeles - Sao Paulo
KE061 ICN2045 - 1545LAX1930 - 1100GRU 772 135
KE062 GRU1330 - 2130LAX0130+1- 0550+2 772 135
Seoul - Los Angeles
KE017 ICN1500 - 1000LAX 744 D
KE011 ICN1930 - 1430LAX 744 D
KE015 ICN1955 - 1500LAX 772 135
KE061 ICN2045 - 1545LAX 772 135
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4805 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 92):
I am not so sure. With all flights Brazil-US flying full, high fares, and expansion restrictions because of the limitations of the bilateral, I am sure KE will uncover an interesting niche market. And I do believe that Brazil could at least sustain one nonstop flight to the US West Coast.
When is the last time that an airline has successfully flown LAX-Brazil without a tag-on to Asia?
They haven't. KE will do just fine, but it is because of the tag-on.
That's not the case anymore, apparently. I'm going to ICN and PEK in a couple of months (spending time in both countries) and I had to get visas for both countries. I didn't expect for Korea either but looks like things changed. Not sure why.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
HeeseokKoo From South Korea, joined Jan 2005, 354 posts, RR: 1 Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4670 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 95): A little better than the previous schedule for sure, but not perfect.
it's not a good flight for connections to the west coast.
Agreed. 4-hour-layover on both ways in LAX is not a good idea. But passengers can take enough break between two long hauls, and right time to become hungry enough to enjoy the first meal on the next flight.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 6123 posts, RR: 48 Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4630 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 96):
That's not the case anymore, apparently. I'm going to ICN and PEK in a couple of months (spending time in both countries) and I had to get visas for both countries. I didn't expect for Korea either but looks like things changed. Not sure why.
Never mind. I just double checked something and the only visa processing is for China.
South Korea still visa-free.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4632 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 92): I am not so sure. With all flights Brazil-US flying full, high fares, and expansion restrictions because of the limitations of the bilateral, I am sure KE will uncover an interesting niche market. And I do believe that Brazil could at least sustain one nonstop flight to the US West Coast.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 94): When is the last time that an airline has successfully flown LAX-Brazil without a tag-on to Asia?
They haven't. KE will do just fine, but it is because of the tag-on.
The better question is when is the last time an airline has flown LAX-Brazil successfully or not, without a tag on. It's been a very long time.
You have made your West Coast/Brazil low yielding comments for years now without any facts or statistics to back up your claims. I would love to see some accompanying sources and then your argument might be more believable. I fly the route regularly (LAX-GRU/GIG) and just flew GIG-MIA-LAX this past weekend. When I cleared customs in MIA, I noticed many bags were tagged on to SFO/LAX, which is almost always the case. When Varig was flying the route, it was nearly impossible to book a ticket on the LAX-GRU leg. Fares nowadays are at an all time high. You can't tell me that an airline starting service on this route nonstop with the average price at an all time high would not be profitable. It would be. Demand is high.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 95): Schedule is very bad on the way back... daylight and it's not a good flight for connections to the west coast.
I actually like the schedule. I can leave HNL in the morning, arrive in LAX at 4:00pm and have enough time to get over to the TBIT to catch the 7:30pm flight to GRU. Agree about the return to LAX though as it will require an overnight stay in LAX for us Hawaii residents as there are no night flights from LAX to HNL.
Does KE have any codeshare partners with Brazilian carriers on to GIG?
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4597 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting HALFA (Reply 99): I actually like the schedule. I can leave HNL in the morning, arrive in LAX at 4:00pm and have enough time to get over to the TBIT to catch the 7:30pm flight to GRU. Agree about the return to LAX though as it will require an overnight stay in LAX for us Hawaii residents as there are no night flights from LAX to HNL.
Aloha Halfa!, that's my point, the flight LAX-GRU is in fact very well timely for connections on both sides. But the way back... not good for connections on Brazilian side as well as in LAX. Even for markets like SFO, SEA and PHX, it's not possible to connect. And this is will be the big problem with the flight, you can go, but you need to stay overnight if you are not O&D LAX or closer areas or of course ICN.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 99): Does KE have any codeshare partners with Brazilian carriers on to GIG?
Probably they held an interline with JJ, but no codeshare partners at this time. But even to GIG, you have to wait 3h for a G3 flight (EZE-GRU-GIG) and 5 hours for JJ (CCS-MAO-GRU-GIG).
Quoting HALFA (Reply 99): The better question is when is the last time an airline has flown LAX-Brazil successfully or not, without a tag on. It's been a very long time.
You have made your West Coast/Brazil low yielding comments for years now without any facts or statistics to back up your claims. I would love to see some accompanying sources and then your argument might be more believable. I fly the route regularly (LAX-GRU/GIG) and just flew GIG-MIA-LAX this past weekend. When I cleared customs in MIA, I noticed many bags were tagged on to SFO/LAX, which is almost always the case. When Varig was flying the route, it was nearly impossible to book a ticket on the LAX-GRU leg. Fares nowadays are at an all time high. You can't tell me that an airline starting service on this route nonstop with the average price at an all time high would not be profitable. It would be. Demand is high.
Agree 100% !
And as i always comment here, business between West Coast and Brazil is growing quickly!
Abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 3193 posts, RR: 25 Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4574 times:
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 27): It is well known that a lot of sex tourists originate from Japan or South Korea and Brazil is one of the typical sex tourist destinations. Hope no one will get offended here.
= ... ... so based on your analysis, SK flies from CPH and ARN to BKK based on the sex tourism demands from the Scandanavians. I would suggest looking at the UN report on international prostitution.
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 59): Last time I checked, the 5th freedom rights do not include all the seats of each flight. There is a limit for KE when selling LAX-GRU and GRU-LAX. I'm sure that KE won't start a route, when they are only allowed to sell 50% of the seats.
= This is not true.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 4): There is not West coast-Brazil nonstop service at the moment. It is expected that TAM could also start LAX-GRU daily nonstop by end of 2008, but nothing confirmed yet.
The GRU-LAX leg should have been served way before by a Brazilian or American carrier. Hope that route preforms well !!! Good luck JJ if they decide to start that same route !!!
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 91): No, they shouldn't have. Yield on LA-Brazil, to put it bluntly, sucks.
Good luck to KE. They shouldn't have much of a problem because they can pick up high yielding GRU-Asia passengers and sell local seats at junk yield, which is all the market can take.
= Ok, I think I will be one of the few (Mark is the other) who will place a question mark on the fiscal sustainability of this flight. As Mark mentions, I too think that it would ONLY do well on the back of strong premium demand to Asia. GRU-LAX market is JUST NOT THERE. If you look at MIDT data, viable markets that can support an O&D link from GRU are primarily NYC, MIA, and MCO. So I do not expect GRU-LAX to be the reason KE will do well. If it does well, it will be for premium traffic ... and what will go in the belly of the aircraft.
What exactly isn't true? Do you think that the 5th freedom rights between Brazil and South Korea include all the seats between LAX and GRU? So you think that if Korean could fill all the seats at LAX only with passengers boarding at LAX, they could? Do you have the specifics of the bilateral for us to see that there are no seat restrictions for passengers boarding in US soil?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 103, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4466 times:
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 102): What exactly isn't true? Do you think that the 5th freedom rights between Brazil and South Korea include all the seats between LAX and GRU? So you think that if Korean could fill all the seats at LAX only with passengers boarding at LAX, they could? Do you have the specifics of the bilateral for us to see that there are no seat restrictions for passengers boarding in US soil?
The United States places zero restrictions on KE for this flight. I don't know what the Brazilian government will do, but the U.S. places none.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12222 posts, RR: 22 Reply 104, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4447 times:
US does not care - once a carrier has 5th freedom rights they can sell 1 or 400 seats.
However like MAH4546 mentions other governments might not always be happy. For instance MAS for a bit operated LAX-MEX tag with a 744 offering very good roundtrip fares. Near entire airplane was local LAX boardings and before long the Mexican carriers started complaining that MAS was dumping seats and competing unfairly. Soon enough the Mexican government managed to squeeze MAS out of the market.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 105, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4389 times:
Congratulations for KE, and nobody could expect better news: the new configured B772 is confirmed for GRU!
Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 93): "Korean Air will resume the long-awaited 3 weekly Seoul - Los Angeles - Sao Paulo service with 777-200ER from 02JUN08. At the same time, service to Los Angeles on the nonstop service will rise from 17 to 20 weekly.
Seoul - Los Angeles - Sao Paulo
KE061 ICN2045 - 1545LAX1930 - 1100GRU 772 135
KE062 GRU1330 - 2130LAX0130+1- 0550+2 772 135
Seoul - Los Angeles
KE017 ICN1500 - 1000LAX 744 D
KE011 ICN1930 - 1430LAX 744 D
KE015 ICN1955 - 1500LAX 772 135
KE061 ICN2045 - 1545LAX 772 135
Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 97): Agreed. 4-hour-layover on both ways in LAX is not a good idea. But passengers can take enough break between two long hauls, and right time to become hungry enough to enjoy the first meal on the next flight.
Congratulations for KE, excellent news that the route is now available in the system. As I have expected, and mentioned in this forum, the route will already start in June 2008.
Last month a strong delegation of KE was in São Paulo to finalise a lot of things such as purchase of property, hiring of executive and sign agreement with RG for interline flights.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 95): Wow, so close to the begin... question is if they will be able to fill the first flights as they will begin is 75 days !
As I said, I am sure KE started to plan for the route in 2007. There were rumors since beginning of 2007 that KE was investigating a possible return to GRU.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 99): I actually like the schedule.
The same here. I think the schedule is perfect and fits well with KE connections in LAX.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 100): Probably they held an interline with JJ
No. Lipe, KE has interline with RG, which was signed recently. As a matter of fact, KE focus will be GRU and not so much connections.
After all, we should all praise KE for its come back to Brazil! KE will now offer the best product between Brazil and the US, alongside JAL. KE new product is superb, I have experienced it and it is just great.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 103): The United States places zero restrictions on KE for this flight. I don't know what the Brazilian government will do, but the U.S. places none.
I have just got a confirmation that KE will have zero restrictions in Brazil as well, i.e. it can sell as many seats it wishes for the B772 both to LAX and ICN, where KE has route rights from GRU.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 106, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4362 times:
It is also important to point out that KE nonstop flight will entail a flight 3h shorter than the current LA-operated GRU-LIM-LAX. KE GRU-LAX will operate the route in 11h30 while LA operate the route in 14h35. ICN-GRU will take 26h15 for the complete route (JAL operates NRT-GRU in 25h).
KE will operate in GRU Terminal 2 - which is convenient as GRU T2 is also used by interline partner RG/G3.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1833 posts, RR: 16 Reply 107, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4327 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 105):
I have just got a confirmation that KE will have zero restrictions in Brazil as well, i.e. it can sell as many seats it wishes for the B772 both to LAX and ICN, where KE has route rights from GRU.
Well, so that's new, because it didn't use to be like that.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 109, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4232 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 108): ne agreement with RG means nothing at GRU
I was just correcting your information that KE had interline with AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ, when the fact is that KE has interline with RG.
KE focus in on GRU traffic both for cargo and pax. Arrival at 11h means avoiding the traffic GRU>Sao Paulo. The flight timing couldnt be better!
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 108): And plans for a flight are far from being sales. I believe the first three months will be of 30 to 40% load
The flight is already in the system, it is not a "plan" anymore. If you are pessimistic, I respect your view. I am personally very OPTIMISTIC, and I think the flight will easily reach very good loads.
We should praise KE for returning to Brazil. As I keep saying, the winner is the passenger: more flights, more options, better product.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 108): The flight will be 3h shorter to LAX, but longer to SFO for example, and with almost 4h in LAX not so attractive to Asia
KE operates to LAX and not SFO. Its focus will be LAX-GRU nonstop and GRU-ICN; and from ICN connections in intra-Asia under one ticket. As I mentioned, KE offer a lot of connections to secondary mainland China destinations currently not available via Europe or US. GRU-LAX nonstop, with KE top quality product, will certainly be an advantage over competition.
KE arrival in GRU means this will be the 8th SkyTeam carrier landing in GRU after AF, KL, AZ, AM, CM, DL, CO.
We wish all success to KE in this new route opening a new link between Brazil and Korea.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 111, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4239 times:
Quoting 28L28L (Reply 110): When did JL first begin NRT-JFK-GRU?
JAL started to operate in GRU in 1978 via LAX and in 1999 JAL started to operate to GRU via JFK in 1999. JAL flights to GRU are a complete success and operate 3 x week.
As a side note, the other Asian carrier operating in South America is MH which flies KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE 2 x week B747.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 26119 posts, RR: 77 Reply 113, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4219 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 111): JAL started to operate in GRU in 1978 via LAX and in 1999 JAL started to operate to GRU via JFK in 1999. JAL flights to GRU are a complete success and operate 3 x week.
Not sure exactly when, but during at least part of the 1980s, GRU was operated with a DC-8 routed NRT-ANC-MIA-GRU.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 114, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4157 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 109): KE focus in on GRU traffic both for cargo and pax. Arrival at 11h means avoiding the traffic GRU>Sao Paulo. The flight timing couldnt be better!
They could focus in GRU, Hardi, but it's not the only city/market for business with Korea and LAX. MAO is even stronger in terms of industry (Samsung, LG) as well as GYN (Hyunday) and GIG (Shipyards). Neglect that will just reduce the size of the market they could look for, even thinking for MAO makes far more sense to fly MAO-MIA-LAX.
Also, not to forget, daylight service from GRU to LAX are not the best for Business market.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 109): The flight is already in the system, it is not a "plan" anymore. If you are pessimistic, I respect your view. I am personally very OPTIMISTIC, and I think the flight will easily reach very good loads.
It's not a matter of being Optimistic ou Pessimistic, the fact is that they loaded an international flight 79 days before it begins, almost all major operators focus a 150 to 240 days advance period for a new route. Yesterday they have zero advance bookings and it's a fact. Also again, it's a daylight service and 3x weekly. I just can't see and being so optimistic based on that. The fact of being the only flight doesn't say it will be everyone choice. I believe a businessman will continue to use IAH, DFW or MIA overnight flights.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 109): KE operates to LAX and not SFO. Its focus will be LAX-GRU nonstop and GRU-ICN; and from ICN connections in intra-Asia under one ticket. As I mentioned, KE offer a lot of connections to secondary mainland China destinations currently not available via Europe or US. GRU-LAX nonstop, with KE top quality product, will certainly be an advantage over competition.
You have your opinion, and i have a different one. And what's the advantage of connections to China on a single ticket if you have a 4h stop over both ways in a 3 weekly service. Is Fastest to go thru Europe even if you need to change planes and use a 2nd ticket in China. I just can't see such advantages. It's an option, and that's it, but not the best choice or the top advantage flight. Also, it's a daylight service considering LAX. To loose all day travelling (you have to be at the airport by 9 AM) it's far better in my opinion to take an overnight flight to MIA and connect to LAX.
AF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 391 posts, RR: 12 Reply 115, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4157 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 111): JAL started to operate in GRU in 1978 via LAX and in 1999 JAL started to operate to GRU via JFK in 1999. JAL flights to GRU are a complete success and operate 3 x week.
Impossible since GRU opened on january 20th, 1985. Before that JL served GIG and then they shifted to GRU.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 116, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4144 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 114): Is Fastest to go thru Europe even if you need to change planes and use a 2nd ticket in China
I have tried connecting in China and would not do it again...better use ICN! Anyway, any route is open for criticism but I personally think KE will open a new and important market. It will be important for KE to come back to Brazil and this is an important decision which I am sure they have analysed. You know better than me that US-Brazil needs more flights and capacity and KE will add to the market and the flight will start just before the busy holiday period.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 114): The fact of being the only flight doesn't say it will be everyone choice. I believe a businessman will continue to use IAH, DFW or MIA overnight flights
But it will certainly be the choice of many who dont like to connect and now have a nonstop quality service GRU-LAX.
MarioSPlane From Brazil, joined Mar 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 119, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4112 times:
Quoting AF086 (Reply 118): Yes they did serve GIG. After GRU opened they were one of the first to leave.
Do you know how the flights worked ? Did JL rotate GIG and VCP in different days or one destination was a tag-on to the other ?
I know that by the end of '85, JL was operating 747's to GRU, it was even the first 747 I have ever seen. But I was never sure of how JL managed their flights to Brazil during the late 70's and early 80's.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 3 Reply 120, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4115 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 113): Not sure exactly when, but during at least part of the 1980s, GRU was operated with a DC-8 routed NRT-ANC-MIA-GRU.
Quoting AF086 (Reply 115): Impossible since GRU opened on january 20th, 1985. Before that JL served GIG and then they shifted to GRU.
In the early 1980s, JL 021 operated GIG-VCP-SJU-JFK-ANC-NRT, while JL 022 operated the outbound flight. The aircraft used was a DC8. By the mid 1980s (around 1985), the flight numbers changed to JL 063/064 and would constitute NRT-LAX-GIG. These flights at NRT would carry the same flight number for immediate behind and beyond traffic to HKG. By around 1988, GRU was backonline as an extension of the GIG flight with subsequent flights numbers ... AFAIR, JL 067/068 operating in addition to 063/064.
AF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 391 posts, RR: 12 Reply 121, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4113 times:
Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 119): Do you know how the flights worked ? Did JL rotate GIG and VCP in different days or one destination was a tag-on to the other ?
Don't know that. Will have to make some research to find it out. Perhaps someone here can shed some light regarding that.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 3 Reply 123, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4104 times:
Quoting AF086 (Reply 121): Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 119):
Do you know how the flights worked ? Did JL rotate GIG and VCP in different days or one destination was a tag-on to the other ?
Don't know that. Will have to make some research to find it out. Perhaps someone here can shed some light regarding that.
Please see my response in the message above. Hope that helps.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 124, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4096 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 116): You know better than me that US-Brazil needs more flights and capacity and KE will add to the market and the flight will start just before the busy holiday period.
On this issue, i agree 100% with you, US-Brazil in on desperate need of more flights and it could help KE. But i believe you understood my points. I expect this time KE obtain success.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 125, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4026 times:
Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 119): Do you know how the flights worked ? Did JL rotate GIG and VCP in different days or one destination was a tag-on to the other ?
JAL started at VCP and switched to GIG in 1984. JAL only switched from GIG to GRU in 1989. At VCP it flew DC8s and the flight stopped in MIA and ANC. I have an uncle who did VCP-NRT in the early 80s. Landing in remote ANC was an adventure but he was thoroughly disappointed as it was Summer and there was no snow on the ground.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 100): Aloha Halfa!, that's my point, the flight LAX-GRU is in fact very well timely for connections on both sides. But the way back... not good for connections on Brazilian side as well as in LAX. Even for markets like SFO, SEA and PHX, it's not possible to connect. And this is will be the big problem with the flight, you can go, but you need to stay overnight if you are not O&D LAX or closer areas or of course ICN.
I am thinking KE does not see this as a problem. KE's order of priority:
1. Traffic between Brazil and Korea
2. Traffic between Brazil and Asia, especially China
3. Traffic between Brazil and LAX, especially local traffic GRU-LAX.
KE will have difficulty competing for traffic between the rest of South America and Asia. US and EU airlines have better connections even for doing EZE-ICN and SCL-ICN. For EZE-SEAsia it will even have new competition from Qantas.
Traffic between Brazil and the US West Coast is well served through DFW, ATL, IAH, YYZ and ORD - and even MEX if one dares to connect in that hell hole.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 3 Reply 126, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4030 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 125): JAL started at VCP and switched to GIG in 1984. JAL only switched from GIG to GRU in 1989. At VCP it flew DC8s and the flight stopped in MIA and ANC. I have an uncle who did VCP-NRT in the early 80s. Landing in remote ANC was an adventure but he was thoroughly disappointed as it was Summer and there was no snow on the ground.
Actually, MIA stopover was used very briefly. Primarily, the flight was routed as I mentioned via ANC, JFK, and SJU. Also, JL did not "switch" to GIG in 1984 from VCP. In the early 1980s, it operated both.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 129, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3938 times:
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 126): Actually, MIA stopover was used very briefly. Primarily, the flight was routed as I mentioned via ANC, JFK, and SJU.
No, MIA was used for many years. GIG-VCP-SJU-JFK-ANC-NRT was changed to VCP-MIA-ANC-NRT which was changed again to VCP-MIA-LAX-NRT.
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 126): Also, JL did not "switch" to GIG in 1984 from VCP. In the early 1980s, it operated both.
It did. By that time JAL was just serving VCP - JAL stopped serving GIG in the early 80s. When the 747 came to Brazil to replace the DC8, it closed VCP and deleted the MIA stop, returning to GIG and making GIG-LAX-NRT-(HKG) with the 747.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 114): Also, not to forget, daylight service from GRU to LAX are not the best for Business market.
I would word this a little different. The majority of business travelers prefers overnight flights - but not all. So some business travelers will take daylights. Some have a strong preference for it. I used to travel frequently between NY and London. I liked the morning departures out of JFK. It was much easier to get to London, go to sleep and get up the next morning with high energy. If I had to do the evening departure, it was much harder to work a full day in London the next day.
In this particular market (GRU-LAX), consider the following situation. You have an important meeting in L.A. starting 9am. What choices do you have? Besides getting on KE's daylight the day before, all other choices will be daylights through MIA, ATL, JFK. No evening flights will get you to LAX early enough.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 829 posts, RR: 0 Reply 130, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3936 times:
Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 93): Seoul - Los Angeles - Sao Paulo
KE061 ICN2045 - 1545LAX1930 - 1100GRU 772 135
KE062 GRU1330 - 2130LAX0130+1- 0550+2 772 135
I don't understand the point of the long layover in LAX.
Why doesn't the flight go:
ICN-LAX-LAX-GRU
2045-1545//1730-0900 which would mean better connectivity at Sao Paulo or
2245-1745//1930-1100 which would mean the plane is on the ground longer at ICN for maintenence
and on the return sector:
1430-2230//0030-0450 which would mean less time on the ground at LAX. The flight arrives too late for connections anyway so the later arrival time wouldn't make a difference.
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 829 posts, RR: 0 Reply 132, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3932 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 129): In this particular market (GRU-LAX), consider the following situation. You have an important meeting in L.A. starting 9am. What choices do you have? Besides getting on KE's daylight the day before, all other choices will be daylights through MIA, ATL, JFK. No evening flights will get you to LAX early enough.
One also has to consider that a red-eye from GRU to LAX would mean a daylight from LAX to ICN. Currently this flight allows businessmen in GRU to leave in the afternoon and arrive in ICN the next morning which is proably better for them than having a daylight to ICN.
MarioSPlane From Brazil, joined Mar 2007, 113 posts, RR: 0 Reply 133, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3884 times:
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 131): Perhaps it was a diverted or charter flight.
Yes, it might. I was very young and was flying to NAT (actually GRU-GIG-SSA-REC-NAT!) with RG's Airbus. And a very nice lady from RG took me too see a 747 before my flight's boarding time. I even remember quite crisply she saying something like ´this one goes to Japan´ and the red bird in the tail. Drawing planes was my favorite thing and I believe I've spent the next year drawing only JL's 747 as well as the RG's A-300 of my trip.
Apparently, you don't travel much between the two cities. I do. There is DEFINITELY a market here.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 105): After all, we should all praise KE for its come back to Brazil! KE will now offer the best product between Brazil and the US, alongside JAL.
I would add AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ to your list.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 109): We should praise KE for returning to Brazil. As I keep saying, the winner is the passenger: more flights, more options, better product.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 114): The fact of being the only flight doesn't say it will be everyone choice. I believe a businessman will continue to use IAH, DFW or MIA overnight flights.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 114): Also, it's a daylight service considering LAX. To loose all day travelling (you have to be at the airport by 9 AM) it's far better in my opinion to take an overnight flight to MIA and connect to LAX.
Aloha Felipe! I believe that you are looking at this entirely from a business trip point of view which is completely understandable considering what you do for a living and how often you travel between the US and Brazil, but there will be many other people taking advantage of this new route that will not involve traveling for business purposes and it will be these people that will be very pleased with this new route. Anyone living in the Los Angeles area that wants to visit friends/relatives in Sao Paulo will jump at the chance to take a nonstop flight from LAX to GRU over taking any of the other carriers and making connections at JFK/EWR/IAH/DFW/ATL/MIA/YYZ like is necessary now, taking into consideration that KE will be price competitive. Same goes for Brazilians visiting Southern California to which there are many. I think that if LAX is there final destination, they will not mind the late arrival time. On my frequent visits between the two cities using the old RG flight, there were many passengers terminating in LAX.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 116): But it will certainly be the choice of many who dont like to connect and now have a nonstop quality service GRU-LAX.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 125): Traffic between Brazil and the US West Coast is well served through DFW, ATL, IAH, YYZ and ORD - and even MEX if one dares to connect in that hell hole.
Correct. However, as I mentioned earlier, the majority of people would LOVE to fly the route nonstop and save the hassle with connecting with US carriers through busy East Coast hubs.
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 128): No they dont. Theres no press release and its not in the schedules.
I thought this was odd too as I checked KE's website and found no mention of this new flight. I then went to amadeus.net and typed in LAX-GRU on June 4 and returning GRU-LAX on June 12 and sure enough, the flights are loaded and bookable.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 129): I would word this a little different. The majority of business travelers prefers overnight flights - but not all. So some business travelers will take daylights. Some have a strong preference for it. I used to travel frequently between NY and London. I liked the morning departures out of JFK. It was much easier to get to London, go to sleep and get up the next morning with high energy. If I had to do the evening departure, it was much harder to work a full day in London the next day.
In this particular market (GRU-LAX), consider the following situation. You have an important meeting in L.A. starting 9am. What choices do you have? Besides getting on KE's daylight the day before, all other choices will be daylights through MIA, ATL, JFK. No evening flights will get you to LAX early enough.
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 132): One also has to consider that a red-eye from GRU to LAX would mean a daylight from LAX to ICN. Currently this flight allows businessmen in GRU to leave in the afternoon and arrive in ICN the next morning which is proably better for them than having a daylight to ICN.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 135, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 130): 2045-1545//1730-0900 which would mean better connectivity at Sao Paulo or
2245-1745//1930-1100 which would mean the plane is on the ground longer at ICN for maintenence
Because all passengers need to clear immigration in LAX, you can't do this in less than 2 hours considering other flights.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 129): In this particular market (GRU-LAX), consider the following situation. You have an important meeting in L.A. starting 9am. What choices do you have? Besides getting on KE's daylight the day before, all other choices will be daylights through MIA, ATL, JFK. No evening flights will get you to LAX early enough.
It depends on:
a) If the passenger is a frequent flier of any airline
b) If the corporation has a corporate rate agreement with a specific airline
But also
- That if you arrive LAX at 1 PM (thru MIA or DFW for example) or 9 PM you got the same hotel overnight stay ?
- That if you arrive LAX at 1 PM you got more time to be prepared for this very important meeting ?
And this 9 AM commitment should be the only one with advantage... if you have a dinner on the other hand what to do ? Travel KE two or three days before ? I don't think so. If you have a 3 days program you will be waiting one or two more days to return ?
2. Traffic between Brazil and Asia, especially China
3. Traffic between Brazil and LAX, especially local traffic GRU-LAX.
Again, it's a 3 weekly service with a terrible daylight GRU-LAX schedule, not good for connections and with a long stop over. They can't just focus some markets, they need to focus all markets they can !
As a side note, another Korean investment has been announced today, the largest Korean Reinsurance company will open an office in Brazil.
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 3 Reply 137, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3833 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 129): Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 126):
Actually, MIA stopover was used very briefly. Primarily, the flight was routed as I mentioned via ANC, JFK, and SJU.
No, MIA was used for many years. GIG-VCP-SJU-JFK-ANC-NRT was changed to VCP-MIA-ANC-NRT which was changed again to VCP-MIA-LAX-NRT.
I have EVERY OAG from 1976 to 2008 and MIA in the 1980s was used briefly. Prior to the 1980s, it was used.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 129): Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 126):
Also, JL did not "switch" to GIG in 1984 from VCP. In the early 1980s, it operated both.
It did. By that time JAL was just serving VCP - JAL stopped serving GIG in the early 80s. When the 747 came to Brazil to replace the DC8, it closed VCP and deleted the MIA stop, returning to GIG and making GIG-LAX-NRT-(HKG) with the 747.
Again, the OAGs sitting right in front of me tell a different story. For example, OAG dated August 1, 1980 has the routing as I mentioned initially ... NRT-ANC-JFK-SJU-VCP-GIG as JL 022. So it did not "switch" services to VCP.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 138, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3812 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 125): I am thinking KE does not see this as a problem. KE's order of priority:
1. Traffic between Brazil and Korea
2. Traffic between Brazil and Asia, especially China
3. Traffic between Brazil and LAX, especially local traffic GRU-LAX.
Agreed.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 124): US-Brazil in on desperate need of more flights and it could help KE. But i believe you understood my points. I expect this time KE obtain success.
No doubt that US-Brazil need more capacity and KE will use this to improve loads. Note that the flight will conveniently start at the beginning of holiday season.
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 130): I don't understand the point of the long layover in LAX.
As mentioned by Lipe, perhaps because of immigration. However, JAL has 2h30 lay-over in JFK. I also find that layover could be reduced in at least 1h, but I am sure KE knows the situation better than us!
Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 132): One also has to consider that a red-eye from GRU to LAX would mean a daylight from LAX to ICN. Currently this flight allows businessmen in GRU to leave in the afternoon and arrive in ICN the next morning which is proably better for them than having a daylight to ICN.
You are totally correct. KE GRU-LAX daylight segment entails a red-eye segment LAX-ICN with perfect business arrival time in ICN and fitting KE connection bank in ICN.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 134): Correct. However, as I mentioned earlier, the majority of people would LOVE to fly the route nonstop and save the hassle with connecting with US carriers through busy East Coast hubs.
Hi! And as a side note, in your next holiday in Rio, KE arrival in GRU at 11am means you can easily reach CGH to get a connection to Rio arriving in Rio's central SDU!
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 135): As a side note, another Korean investment has been announced today, the largest Korean Reinsurance company will open an office in Brazil.
Another reason which shows KE was right. Korean investment in Brazil is not negligible and although many Korean production factories are located in MAO the executives are in Sao Paulo offices. KE flight will also bring more investment and tourism!
B747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 829 posts, RR: 0 Reply 139, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3757 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 135): Because all passengers need to clear immigration in LAX, you can't do this in less than 2 hours considering other flights.
Is this a new regulation? Why do transiting passengers need to clear immigration?
BSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 327 posts, RR: 1 Reply 141, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3737 times:
Horrible arrival time in LAX. LAX could have a great advantage over other US gateways to places such as San Diego, Bay Area, Fresno and SMF among other places in California which together generates quite a few traffic to/from Brazil and would help to fill the seats, but with this horrible arrival time I think they are not really considering this market, which is IMO very important to sustain such a flight. Actually I don't see a big advantage on taking this flight via the USA when you can go via Europe in faster and more convenient connections. So they should consider the California market as a whole, not only Asia-Brazil. Until 2001 when they operated in GRU, the aircraft arrived in the morning and left in the late evening, and I think this would work better even with the aircraft spending the whole day on the ground, and could connect their pax to NRT (which would make a lot of sense), but it is also not possible with this schedule.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 142, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3719 times:
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137): Again, the OAGs sitting right in front of me tell a different story. For example, OAG dated August 1, 1980 has the routing as I mentioned initially ... NRT-ANC-JFK-SJU-VCP-GIG as JL 022. So it did not "switch" services to VCP
Indeed I was innacurate when I said JAL started at VCP. It started with the routing above as you said with a VCP-GIG leg. But by mid 1981 JAL had stopped the VCP-GIG leg. So it left GIG, then left VCP and went back to GIG and then it left GIG and went to GRU.
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137): I have EVERY OAG from 1976 to 2008 and MIA in the 1980s was used briefly. Prior to the 1980s, it was used.
Check your books from 1981 to 1984 then -> VCP-MIA-LAX-NRT or VCP-MIA-ANC-NRT were the flights JAL had before placing the 747 in the route to Rio.
Abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 3193 posts, RR: 25 Reply 143, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3683 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 134): Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 101):
GRU-LAX market is JUST NOT THERE.
Apparently, you don't travel much between the two cities. I do. There is DEFINITELY a market here.
= ... and how did you estimate the market ... from all the nonstops you took between the two cities? As I mentioned, LAX-GRU is NOT the reason the flight will work for KE. Instead of personal observations, I encourage you to look at MIDT data.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 1833 posts, RR: 16 Reply 144, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3655 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 138):
Hi! And as a side note, in your next holiday in Rio, KE arrival in GRU at 11am means you can easily reach CGH to get a connection to Rio arriving in Rio's central SDU!
That is just so wonderful. GRU is a great hub, so great that you need to take a bus to CGH in order to get anywhere. What's the point of arriving at SDU? There is no advantage whatsoever. GIG is not far, actually the distance between CGH and GRU is twice the distance between GIG and SDU or the South Zone. In the end, it's better to connect at CDG or ATL, when flying KE.
HALFA From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 18 Reply 145, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3623 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 138): Hi! And as a side note, in your next holiday in Rio, KE arrival in GRU at 11am means you can easily reach CGH to get a connection to Rio arriving in Rio's central SDU!
Aloha Hardi!
If I can catch the bus to CGH and get to SDU quicker than waiting 3 hours at GRU for a G3 flight to GIG, I just may do that. Or, I might just stay in GRU for the weekend and go to The Week on Saturday night!
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 143): . and how did you estimate the market ... from all the nonstops you took between the two cities? As I mentioned, LAX-GRU is NOT the reason the flight will work for KE. Instead of personal observations, I encourage you to look at MIDT data.
I never said the LAX-GRU is the reason the flight will work. I am well aware that KE's entry into the market is primarily to connect Asia and Brazil, with the added benefit of providing badly needed seats on a NON STOP flight from the West Coast of the U.S.A. to Brazil. You said that there is no demand for this service. It is my and others contention that there certainly is demand for a nonstop flight from LAX to Brazil.
I would love to look at MIDT data but one needs a paid subscription for the service. I am willing to bet that the figures would show that if you took all of the passengers flying on a daily basis from LAX/SFO to either GIG/GRU using UA/AA/DL/CO, through their respective hubs, you could easily fill two widebodies daily. I have no doubt about this, and you could command a high price and free up seats on your domestic US flights in the process.
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 1897 posts, RR: 5 Reply 146, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3548 times:
As a matter of fact, KE makes flights on behalf of DL heading to ICN and vice versa.
With that being said, SkyTeam Group is able to gather passengers by means of [DL GRU-ATL and then KE/DL ATL-ICN] or [DL GRU-JFK and then KE JFK-ICN]. These possibilities are available on DL's website. By the way, KE flies daily to both ATL and JFK.
.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 125): Traffic between Brazil and the US West Coast is well served through DFW, ATL, IAH, YYZ and ORD - and even MEX if one dares to connect in that hell hole.
These possibilities are available every day.
The disadvantage of KE LAX-GRU is that flights will be available thrice a week based on the current schedules.
Abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 3193 posts, RR: 25 Reply 147, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3510 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 145): I am willing to bet that the figures would show that if you took all of the passengers flying on a daily basis from LAX/SFO to either GIG/GRU using UA/AA/DL/CO, through their respective hubs, you could easily fill two widebodies daily.
= Lets just agree to disagree. I am one of the biggest fans of Brasil and GRU on this board ... but having looked at MIDT data on this a month back, I can tell you that the O&D market is not as large as you think. Given airline economics, basic resource utilizaton theory, and marginal benefit of operating this route, I have not been surprised that no Brasilian airline has tried to make it work earlier. And, I highly doubt Ocean Air will be successful ... especially since they seem super confused right now.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 148, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
Quoting HALFA (Reply 145): If I can catch the bus to CGH and get to SDU quicker than waiting 3 hours at GRU for a G3 flight to GIG
You are right. You will have the best of both worlds! In my personal case I also prefer to fly SDU-CGH to get the KLM flight to AMS because SDU is centrally located and very convenient to fly to/from! The renovated SDU also looks great! I am sure that this new KE flight will bring a lot of relief for passengers flying between LAX and Brazil and I understand how happy you must be!
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 146): As a matter of fact, KE makes flights on behalf of DL heading to ICN and vice versa.
With that being said, SkyTeam Group is able to gather passengers by means of [DL GRU-ATL and then KE/DL ATL-ICN] or [DL GRU-JFK and then KE JFK-ICN]. These possibilities are available on DL's website. By the way, KE flies daily to both ATL and JFK.
JAL also offers other connections to Japan and even has an agreement with TAM for connections from CDG and LHR to NRT and NGO. This does not mean JAL GRU-JFK-NRT flights does not work.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 145): I never said the LAX-GRU is the reason the flight will work. I am well aware that KE's entry into the market is primarily to connect Asia and Brazil, with the added benefit of providing badly needed seats on a NON STOP flight from the West Coast of the U.S.A. to Brazil
Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 141): Until 2001 when they operated in GRU, the aircraft arrived in the morning and left in the late evening, and I think this would work better even with the aircraft spending the whole day on the ground
The problem is that the aircraft seats in GRU for the whole day - JAL plane seats in GRU for more than 20 hours. You have to calculate the cost of a parked plane versus to have it flying. Then you also have to factor in the arrival time in ICN - operating GRU-LAX daylight entails excellent arrival time in ICN.
In addition, there are lack of planes in the market. KE fleet now looks overstretched and I dont think they would be able to operate the route with GRU-LAX red-eye because: 1) it would waste utilisation rate of the B772 used in the route; 2) it would not fit in KE's LAX-ICN schedule therefore undermining the yields for this leg segment.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 149, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3405 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 142): Indeed I was innacurate when I said JAL started at VCP. It started with the routing above as you said with a VCP-GIG leg. But by mid 1981 JAL had stopped the VCP-GIG leg. So it left GIG, then left VCP and went back to GIG and then it left GIG and went to GRU.
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 142): Check your books from 1981 to 1984 then -> VCP-MIA-LAX-NRT or VCP-MIA-ANC-NRT were the flights JAL had before placing the 747 in the route to Rio.
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137): I have EVERY OAG from 1976 to 2008 and MIA in the 1980s was used briefly. Prior to the 1980s, it was used.
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137): Again, the OAGs sitting right in front of me tell a different story. For example, OAG dated August 1, 1980 has the routing as I mentioned initially ... NRT-ANC-JFK-SJU-VCP-GIG as JL 022. So it did not "switch" services to VCP
I know the JAL discussion is not directly related to KE flight to GRU, but since this issue was brough into the discussion, and relates to Asian links with Brazil, I received a private email message which will certainly clarify the issue of JAL operations in Brazil. Thanks to "Tsurumaru" for sharing his knowledge with us. Here is part of his message to me::
Here is JL's Brazil service detail since 1978.
note: ()= technical stop only
1978/6~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-VCP 1 flight per 2 weeks DC8
1978/7~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-(SJU)-VCP-GIG 1 per 2 weeks DC8
1979/4~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-(SJU)-VCP-GIG 1 per week DC8
1982/7~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(MIA)-VCP 1 per week DC8
1983/7~ JL64/61 NRT-LAX 1 per week 747
JL64/61 LAX-(MIA)-VCP 1 per week DC8
1985/11~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GIG 2 per week 747
1989/5~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU 2 per week 747
1996/9~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU 3 per week 747
1999/9~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 2 per week 747
JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 747
2000/9~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 4 per week 744
JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 747
2001/12~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
JL64/63 NGO-NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 744
2002/4~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 2 per week 744
JL48/47 NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 1 per week 744
2002/6~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
JL48/47 NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 1 per week 744
2004/2~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
Thank you to Tsurumaru for this very detailed information about JAL's service in Brazil, which is very convenient because 2008 celebrates one century of Japanese immigration to Brazil, and JAL is certainly a major actor behind Japan-Brazil friendly relations:
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 150, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3351 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 147): And, I highly doubt Ocean Air will be successful ... especially since they seem super confused right now.
Seems that they (OceanAir) are requesting GRU-LAX daily service to DOT.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 138): Another reason which shows KE was right. Korean investment in Brazil is not negligible and although many Korean production factories are located in MAO the executives are in Sao Paulo offices. KE flight will also bring more investment and tourism!
But people from factories also travel and receive visitors.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 134): Aloha Felipe! I believe that you are looking at this entirely from a business trip point of view which is completely understandable considering what you do for a living and how often you travel between the US and Brazil, but there will be many other people taking advantage of this new route that will not involve traveling for business purposes and it will be these people that will be very pleased with this new route. Anyone living in the Los Angeles area that wants to visit friends/relatives in Sao Paulo will jump at the chance to take a nonstop flight from LAX to GRU over taking any of the other carriers and making connections at JFK/EWR/IAH/DFW/ATL/MIA/YYZ like is necessary now, taking into consideration that KE will be price competitive. Same goes for Brazilians visiting Southern California to which there are many. I think that if LAX is there final destination, they will not mind the late arrival time. On my frequent visits between the two cities using the old RG flight, there were many passengers terminating in LAX.
Halfa, i agree, but as per Abresolos comment also, the market isn't Sao Paulo-Los Angeles only. For someone from LAX the flight is good as it allows to connect to every place in Brazil as well as the opposite. But i can say that employees of Bank of America (SFO) will not be taking this flight, as well as Boeing employees visiting Brazil (SEA). LAX area is huge, no doubt, but even MIA and JFK depends on other closer markets (MCO, BOS) to fill planes, so i just can't imagine how LAX alone can be different from other markets that in fact has a lot more O&D activity.
And again, is a 3x weekly service, and for some people even looking for LAX, will be not the best option.
But i agree that for people looking for LAX as a final destination, it's a perfect schedule.
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 146): With that being said, SkyTeam Group is able to gather passengers by means of [DL GRU-ATL and then KE/DL ATL-ICN] or [DL GRU-JFK and then KE JFK-ICN]. These possibilities are available on DL's website. By the way, KE flies daily to both ATL and JFK.
Also not to forget, DL offers the same from GIG.
https://www.gapnet.com.br/vis_comunicados.asp?cod_info=32378
The stop over from the two flights (GRU-ATL and GIG-ATL) are less than 3 hours, and not to forget DL is KL SkyTeam partner.
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2710 posts, RR: 21 Reply 151, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 149): Here is JL's Brazil service detail since 1978.
That is quite interesting. I wonder how often and through which stops it operated non-regular flights to Brazil before 1978.
Quoting HALFA (Reply 145): I am willing to bet that the figures would show that if you took all of the passengers flying on a daily basis from LAX/SFO to either GIG/GRU using UA/AA/DL/CO, through their respective hubs, you could easily fill two widebodies daily.
There in lies the difficulty. There are multiple possibilities to go from L.A. to GRU and the market chops itself off into small bits. There are more possibilities to travel between L.A. and GRU than the US airlines. One can go Air Canada, AeroMexico, Copa, Lan Peru, Lan Chile, Avianca or Taca.
Then there is the competition of multiple airports in the Los Angeles area. Why take chances in traffic to LAX if one can fly ONT-ATL-GRU? Besides Ontario there is Long Beach, Orange County and Burbank to pick from, not to mention that passengers considering a drive out of some areas close to San Diego, Santa Barbara and Palm Springs may also pick instead a connection on UA/AA/DL/CO.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 152, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3345 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 151): There in lies the difficulty. There are multiple possibilities to go from L.A. to GRU and the market chops itself off into small bits. There are more possibilities to travel between L.A. and GRU than the US airlines. One can go Air Canada, AeroMexico, Copa, Lan Peru, Lan Chile, Avianca or Taca.
Then there is the competition of multiple airports in the Los Angeles area. Why take chances in traffic to LAX if one can fly ONT-ATL-GRU? Besides Ontario there is Long Beach, Orange County and Burbank to pick from, not to mention that passengers considering a drive out of some areas close to San Diego, Santa Barbara and Palm Springs may also pick instead a connection on UA/AA/DL/CO.
Your point is very relevant. But again I think many would prefer a nonstop flight, especially taking into account KE product. In addition, KE is focusing on capturing traffic to ICN and intra-Asia.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 150): The stop over from the two flights (GRU-ATL and GIG-ATL) are less than 3 hours, and not to forget DL is KL SkyTeam partner.
Flight time GRU-ICN via ATL with DL is 28h15 while with KE the flight time GRU-ICN is 28h10, with same plane service and no hassle of late flight or missing connection. In addition to KE superior product.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 150): But people from factories also travel and receive visitors
As I said, KE cannot fly to everywhere, it has to make decision. Otherwise KE would need to fly ICN-MAO. This is impossible. KE flights arrives at the same time other major airlines also arrive in GRU, about 10am (e.g. AC, CO, DL, etc).
Kiramakora From India, joined Aug 2006, 413 posts, RR: 3 Reply 153, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3298 times:
Quoting Incitatus (Reply 142): Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137):
Again, the OAGs sitting right in front of me tell a different story. For example, OAG dated August 1, 1980 has the routing as I mentioned initially ... NRT-ANC-JFK-SJU-VCP-GIG as JL 022. So it did not "switch" services to VCP
Indeed I was innacurate when I said JAL started at VCP. It started with the routing above as you said with a VCP-GIG leg. But by mid 1981 JAL had stopped the VCP-GIG leg. So it left GIG, then left VCP and went back to GIG and then it left GIG and went to GRU.
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 137):
I have EVERY OAG from 1976 to 2008 and MIA in the 1980s was used briefly. Prior to the 1980s, it was used.
Check your books from 1981 to 1984 then -> VCP-MIA-LAX-NRT or VCP-MIA-ANC-NRT were the flights JAL had before placing the 747 in the route to Rio.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 149): I know the JAL discussion is not directly related to KE flight to GRU, but since this issue was brough into the discussion, and relates to Asian links with Brazil, I received a private email message which will certainly clarify the issue of JAL operations in Brazil. Thanks to "Tsurumaru" for sharing his knowledge with us. Here is part of his message to me::
Here is JL's Brazil service detail since 1978.
note: ()= technical stop only
1978/6~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-VCP 1 flight per 2 weeks DC8
1978/7~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-(SJU)-VCP-GIG 1 per 2 weeks DC8
1979/4~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(JFK)-(SJU)-VCP-GIG 1 per week DC8
1982/7~ JL22/21 NRT-(ANC)-(MIA)-VCP 1 per week DC8
1983/7~ JL64/61 NRT-LAX 1 per week 747
JL64/61 LAX-(MIA)-VCP 1 per week DC8
1985/11~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GIG 2 per week 747
1989/5~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU 2 per week 747
1996/9~ JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU 3 per week 747
1999/9~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 2 per week 747
JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 747
2000/9~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 4 per week 744
JL64/63 NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 747
2001/12~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
JL64/63 NGO-NRT-LAX-GRU/GRU-LAX-NGO-NRT 1 per week 744
2002/4~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 2 per week 744
JL48/47 NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 1 per week 744
2002/6~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
JL48/47 NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 1 per week 744
2004/2~ JL48/47 NRT-JFK-GRU 3 per week 744
This is great information and I stand corrected where I did not actually go to the physical OAG. Sorry, too much work . I verified some of them and it looks right based on the OAG's in front of me. I looked at August of random years and the only difference I found was that by August 1981, JL 021-022 was already being routed NRT-ANC-MIA-VCP.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 154, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3232 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 152): Flight time GRU-ICN via ATL with DL is 28h15 while with KE the flight time GRU-ICN is 28h10, with same plane service and no hassle of late flight or missing connection. In addition to KE superior product.
We can't say same plane service as you still need to leave the plane with all your belongs.
Agree that DL could be not the best choice, but travelling time thru Europe from GIG and GRU are less than 24 hours if you get AF night service. Almost 5 hours it's a lot of time and in fact allows any person to enjoy the day in both Rio or São Paulo as they can just depart by 7 PM and arrive just one other later than LAX-ICN service.
And KE flight time GRU-LAX-ICN is in fact 28h20min.
Hardiwv From Netherlands, joined Oct 2004, 7578 posts, RR: 58 Reply 155, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3210 times:
Quoting Kiramakora (Reply 153): This is great information and I stand corrected
Thanks to Tsurumaru.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 154): We can't say same plane service as you still need to leave the plane with all your belongs.
It is physically the same plane plus it means you wont have the chance of missing the connection.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 154): Agree that DL could be not the best choice
DL is a possible choice as there are many other choices to reach ICN from Brazil, AF as you pointed out is another choice, KLM is another, LH another, etc.
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 154): but travelling time thru Europe from GIG and GRU are less than 24 hours if you get AF night service. Almost 5 hours it's a lot of time and in fact allows any person to enjoy the day in both Rio or São Paulo as they can just depart by 7 PM and arrive just one other later than LAX-ICN service.
As I said, there are many choices. The AF flight from ICN to GRU is 28h15, KE makes it in 26h15, or 2h extra for business meeting or shopping in Seoul! Additionally, flying KE means that you wont bother about missing the connecting flight.
If the matter was selecting the quickest connection JAL would not be flying to Brazil: AF, AA, LX, AC and LH all offer quicker connections from GRU to NRT, but still JAL flight works. The same will apply for KE.
You will continue bashing KE flight to GRU, and I will continue praising a world class, profitable airline as KE!
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 7905 posts, RR: 63 Reply 156, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3129 times:
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Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 155): You will continue bashing KE flight to GRU, and I will continue praising a world class, profitable airline as KE!
I'm not bashing, just saying it's not so marvellous as you is trying to say and giving arguments for that.
Just wait and see.
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 155): If the matter was selecting the quickest connection JAL would not be flying to Brazil: AF, AA, LX, AC and LH all offer quicker connections from GRU to NRT, but still JAL flight works. The same will apply for KE.
You have a good point, but i believe we can't compare the market Brazil-Japan with Brazil-Korea. Residents, investments, business, tourism... everything is at least 5 times bigger.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10972 posts, RR: 13 Reply 157, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3087 times:
Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 155): If the matter was selecting the quickest connection JAL would not be flying to Brazil: AF, AA, LX, AC and LH all offer quicker connections from GRU to NRT, but still JAL flight works. The same will apply for KE.
And many Japanese and Koreans prefer to fly on their own airlines for language and meal service reasons.
Both of you guys make good points and keep everything on high standards, agreeing or (especially) disagreeing.
I see something about this KE flight that might not be explained by numbers. The Korean community in Brazil doesn't share the same respectability that the Japanese has, especially here in Sao Paulo, where they both concentrate. Therefore, the Korean community tends to be more tight, secluded and you may even say "proud", than the Japanese. They were very loyal to KE's previous operations in Brazil and I can guarantee that they will overlook all the other links to ICN in favor of this new flight. The Japanese also have established themselves much more time ago. Their community have now 3rd and 4th generation descendants born here. And many of these descendants are going back to Japan in search of opportunities, in the opposite way their families did. Most of the Koreans are from the 1st generation born here. And they are well established here, so only their kids will tell, when older, if they'll try to find opportunities back in Korea when they grow older.
The amount of Korean investments, residents, tourism and such, as Lipe pointed out, is indeed smaller than the Japanese. However, a big part of their community here is formed by small and not so small entrepreneurs, mainly in commerce, with close business ties with South Korea. They do travel a lot back and forth, to buy merchandise, find new suppliers and keep in touch with their families. Consequently, they form a very big and affluent group, although not notorious. The Japanese flights have indeed more feeding by the different kinds of passengers, but a big part of the traffic is related to Japanese-Brazilians leaving to/coming from a work term. I'm really not comparing the markets, but I believe there is market to fill this KE flight solely by their community personal and business ties with mother land.
Additionally, there's the O&D GRU-LAX market. I've seen good points given by the ones supporting the fact that the market is not there and from the ones on the other corner. I did this flight quite a few times, non-stop with RG and connecting with AA. In the RG flights, I've seen two situations: me and a few others leaving/entering a plane going to/coming from Tokyo, as well as a practically full O&D flight (I'm not regarding connections ex-LAX, ex-GRU). As a side note, I saw the same in my two JL 047 to JFK. One had massive GRU-NRT traffic, the other had a quite good amount of GRU-JFK O&D.
I believe numbers have to be respected. But I also believe that with the correct spanking, they can go the way you want it to go.
So, for this time, I'm betting on the success of KE's flight. If it doesn't work, the round of caipirinha is on me !
Quoting MarioSPlane (Reply 158): So, for this time, I'm betting on the success of KE's flight. If it doesn't work, the round of caipirinha is on me !
Another round is on me as well as the barbecue at Fogo de Chão (the one closer to CGH) if the flight last for more than a year ! I have to pay for my comments
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