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Nice Video Crosswind Landing KL MD11  
User currently offlineGFA330 From Turkey, joined Oct 2006, 105 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 15673 times:

Not sure if it has been posted before.
I had never seen it, and thought it was a pretty neat one.

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/4285.../302e3a56/zijwind_landing_klm.html

If it is old stuff pls ignore.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanaman From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 15625 times:

Nice. I always love a good crosswind landing


Sorry I moved from SXM, looking for a new house on Anguilla now!
User currently offlineKLMD11L From New Zealand, joined Dec 2007, 123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 5 hours ago) and read 15579 times:

Seen it before, not on this website though, I used to live just 8 km away from AKL, our house was right under the final approach path and we used to enjoy these amazing landings on windy days which are not rare in NZ.


KLM MD-11...The Ultimate Flying Machine!
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 15379 times:

Now this is a amazing crosswind landing.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1092 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14936 times:

no. that's a stupid one. he should have went around.

User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14895 times:



Quoting GFA330 (Thread starter):
I had never seen it, and thought it was a pretty neat one.

That was in Toronto I believe. I understand that the KLM capt was female as well.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14770 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 4):
no. that's a stupid one. he should have went around.

Real men don't go around, dude. He did it on purpouses to show his off duty colleagues
and a nice FA he wanted to impress for the overnight, how clever he was crablanding
with strong crosswind. Everybody is able to spend fuel to reach the alternate, assuming
you still have some, to land with front wind. As you can see in those images below :

http://www.aviationpics.de/appr/app.htm

the feeling of show how macho they were, was pretty common to almost any pilot
landing in that airport, which, Im just guessing, you never heard about..


User currently onlineNZA320 From New Zealand, joined May 2007, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 14729 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 4):
no. that's a stupid one. he should have went around.

Since Kai tak was so busy you really only got one shot at it and if you did a go around you would spend the next hour in a holding pattern waiting for atc to fit you in to have another go at landing. So there was a bit of pressure for pilots to land the first time.



Hovering is for pilots who love to fly but have no place to go.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5648 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14706 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 6):
Real men don't go around, dude.

I seriously hope you're being sarcastic. Machoism has cost way too many lives.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14685 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 6):
Real men don't go around, dude.

THAT sentence killed A LOT of people in the past and I hope it wont kill anymore people in the future!!!!!



The MD11 isnt easy to handle during crosswind conditions! The pretty small rudder in the back and you need a lot of rudder input to straighten the bitch up! And then the wings starts to come up, so dont let it come up too high and then avoid a drop in speed or an increased sinkrate and then avoid excessive flare and hope for a positive touchdown...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14669 times:



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
I seriously hope you're being sarcastic.

 Wink


User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14656 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
Quoting Max777geek (Reply 6):Real men don't go around, dude.
THAT sentence killed A LOT of people in the past and I hope it wont kill anymore people in the future!!!!!

It was in reply to somebody who apparently defined stupid a pilot landing in KayTak, with probably no left fuel to reach an alternate for a safer landing, as so many times happened there, I guess.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
The MD11

Sorry, but I did read a comment in a post after a video of a 747 landing in KayTak, defining the pilot a stupid for not choosing to go around. That's what I did reply to.


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14633 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 11):
Sorry, but I did read a comment in a post after a video of a 747 landing in KayTak, defining the pilot a stupid for not choosing to go around. That's what I did reply to.

Alright! And I replied to the thread starter and tried to bring closer how to land an MD11 during crosswind! I never piloted the 744, so I can only talk about the MD11... and she IS bitchy Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14618 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
Alright! And I replied to the thread starter  

Ehm.... Sorry sir, but you did replied to me actually  biggrin   bigthumbsup   biggrin   bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14610 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 13):
Sorry sir, but you did replied to me actually biggrin bigthumbsup biggrin bigthumbsup

I left a HUGE space between the direct reply to your comment and then I stated something about the MD11 which was referred to the thread starter.... Because this thread was initially about the good old MD11 Big grin


WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14587 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 14):

See, somebody define stupid a jumbo pilot and the fault is of the italian, of course.
 biggrin   biggrin   biggrin   biggrin   biggrin 


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 14584 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 15):
See, somebody define stupid a jumbo pilot and the fault is of the italian, of course.
biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

 rotfl   rotfl  it has to be someones fault Big grin Big grin

Ok back to the topic here! MD11 crosswind landings arent easy! I heard the 744 is easier to handle in crosswinds...


WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 14433 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 16):
Quoting Max777geek (Reply 15):See, somebody define stupid a jumbo pilot and the fault is of the italian, of course.
biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

      it has to be someones fault  

For young readers, this all began July, 11th, 1982.

Im sorry, Im sorry, Im sorry  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 16):

Ok back to the topic here! MD11 crosswind landings arent easy! I heard the 744 is easier to handle in crosswinds...

Won't say so. I did make it with an 80 in the simulator, and heard big guys talking in a 742 cockpit and the winds limitations they were talking were lower than I read on the japanese guys sites. This is a guinness question but we need a multi type rated to extabilish..


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13302 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 4):
no. that's a stupid one. he should have went around.

Agreed.

Quoting Max777geek (Reply 6):
Real men don't go around, dude. He did it on purpouses to show his off duty colleagues
and a nice FA he wanted to impress for the overnight, how clever he was crablanding
with strong crosswind. Everybody is able to spend fuel to reach the alternate, assuming
you still have some, to land with front wind. As you can see in those images below :

http://www.aviationpics.de/appr/app.htm

the feeling of show how macho they were, was pretty common to almost any pilot
landing in that airport, which, Im just guessing, you never heard about..

I thought being a pilot was about flying safely with hundreds of passengers on your back from one point to another, not about showing off and being a "real man" and landing like an asshole (though I am not saying the above mentionned pilot in the 747 was an asshole - I wasn't there, I'm no pilot, I can't say). By the way, many captains are now women, did you know that ? Oh well...

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
The MD11 isnt easy to handle during crosswind conditions! The pretty small rudder in the back and you need a lot of rudder input to straighten the bitch up! And then the wings starts to come up, so dont let it come up too high and then avoid a drop in speed or an increased sinkrate and then avoid excessive flare and hope for a positive touchdown...

Exactly, that's what I've always wondered about the MD11. Its rudder seems so terribly small compared to other airliners, and it's a pretty big plane. Does it not limit its effect on the movement of the plane ? I mean, look at a 340's rudder, it's way higher than the MD11's. Well, actually, it LOOKS higher. But still...



Cheers
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13278 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting AF1624 (Reply 18):
Exactly, that's what I've always wondered about the MD11. Its rudder seems so terribly small compared to other airliners, and it's a pretty big plane. Does it not limit its effect on the movement of the plane ?

No problem with the movement at all! During engine failure or crosswind landings you need a bit more rudder than maybe on a 343! But not too much, because the engines are so close to the fuselage, that the yaw moment isnt that big! And there is NO yaw, if engines #2 quits Big grin
And if the upper rudder is inop, due to hydraulic failure, you have a VMCA of 180 knots! Which isnt really slow, is it?

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12867 times:



Quoting AF1624 (Reply 18):
I thought being a pilot was about flying safely with hundreds of passengers on your back from one point to another, not about showing off and being a "real man" and landing like an asshole (though I am not saying the above mentionned pilot in the 747 was an asshole - I wasn't there, I'm no pilot, I can't say). By the way, many captains are now women, did you know that ? Oh well...

No, I didn't know, but I bet you never heard of an airport called Kay Tak. Am I wrong ?


User currently offlineBristolFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 12440 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 20):
I bet you never heard of an airport called Kay Tak

Is that anywhere near Kai Tak?  wink 



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12266 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 20):

No, I didn't know, but I bet you never heard of an airport called Kay Tak. Am I wrong ?

Never heard of Kay Tak, but KAI Tak was a pretty cool airport.


I have seen most of these Kai Tak videos before and some of them do look like the GA should have been the better option, short of the PIC having declared a fuel emergency. If commercial pressures are that bad that PICs do that kind of thing, I may have just become a nervous pax.

Interestingly enough Air Accident Investigators have a term for this behaviour, it's called 'getthereitis'.


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11672 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 20):
No, I didn't know, but I bet you never heard of an airport called Kay Tak. Am I wrong ?

First of all, it's spelled Kai Tak, not KaY Tak.

And who doesn't know of Kai Tak ? That airport is a legend.

It's the old Hong-Kong international airport. It only had one runway and served almost only heavies. The runway was quite small, and there was this big rock in the axis of the runway which made a straight-in impossible. Pilots had to make an IGS approach, with a sharp turn on final to the right in order to align.

There are tons of videos of approaches on youtube, in cockpit, out of cockpit, cross wind etc... Approaches that are absolutely incredible.

STILL, it was not about being a macho of any kind. It was about landing the aircraft, and I can tell you pilots were quite nervous about doing it.

What I find most impressive is that the concorde used to go there. That was an aircraft very difficult to manoever at slow speeds, so that sharp turn on final and taking off on such a small runway must have been quite something at the time.

Now Hong-Kong's airport is Chek Lap Kok Intl, VHHH. Big airport that one, and quite safer than the old one. Two runways, useable on both sides all the time.



Now, about women being captains, I really hope you are sarcastic when you say you didn't know. C'mon, the profession has opened many, many, many years ago ! There are women ramp agents, women captains, F/Os, F/As, dispatchers, etc...



Cheers
User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11154 times:



Quoting Max777geek (Reply 17):
For young readers, this all began July, 11th, 1982.

Sorry for the off-topic, but the real final was July 5th, 1982. I was 7 and never forgot that game. Damn you, P.R.!  weeping 

Back to the topic. Nice video. I miss doing crosswind landings in my little LSAs. Need to get back my currency. Must be awesome to watch one from an MD-11 jumpseat.



Let's go Pens!
25 Post contains images WILCO737 : Yes it does WILCO737 (MD11F)
26 CosmicCruiser : Hey Wilco737, greetings fellow MD-11 driver. Checking our QRH with the upper rudder inop the Vmca is 160 kts. The max recommended x-wind is 12 kts. S
27 Post contains images WILCO737 : Oops, I mixed it up! If the LOWER rudder is inop, then the VMCA is 180 Thank god its written in the QRH and I dont have to memorize it ONLY 25 knots?
28 767driver : Whats wrong with landing in a crab? It may not be the most comfortable but it is approved in some airplanes (such as the 767) and in some cases its n
29 Post contains images WILCO737 : It is not recommended on the MD11 to land with crab! The poor main gear could get damaged! So at my airline we have to start the de- crabbin at aroun
30 767driver : In the 757 you can start slipping it in once you're over the numbers, but in the 767, in a strong crosswind, you may need to land in a crab. Boeings
31 Post contains images WILCO737 : We have 35 knots max crosswind! And recommended NOT to touch down in a crab! Poor MD11F!! She cant handle that very well... Safe flying! WILCO737 (MD
32 CosmicCruiser : We have max 35 kts as well I think they just do 25 as a rule in the sim. Interestingly I've never flown a plane that a crab ldg was approved. I had a
33 Post contains images WILCO737 : We practice 35 knots in the sim! we slowly increase from 10 to 35 knots... On the 737 it was allowed and no problem! On the 744 (I heard) its allowed
34 Irobertson : Just to clarify, this video was taken in Montreal (YUL). There are other videos from that day available on FlightLevel350. A lot of impressive landin
35 Asteriskceo : I wonder if the rear engine's velocity vector makes it more difficult in crosswinds than a 2, 4 engined aircraft.
36 Post contains images WILCO737 : I was thinking about it, good question! I would say no! The vector is pretty much in the same direction as the other engines! And on a 2 or 4 engined
37 Post contains images David L : I'm not so sure about that. The noise abatement procedure for take-off from the 31s at JFK involves an early left turn and it was pioneered by... Con
38 Post contains images WILCO737 : If you are referring to the KLM MD11 landing, then it looks to my like there was actually a strong crosswind... The movement of the aircraft and the
39 CosmicCruiser : Definitely a x-wind and looks text book to me.
40 David L : No, sorry. I was referring to the one at Kai Tak. I thought that was the one being discussed in the posts I was responding to.
41 Post contains images WILCO737 : Oh ok, then you are right He messed up the approach WILCO737 (MD11F)
42 B767 : There have been some discussion about the strenght of the wingbox and landing gear on the MD11.Some says the wingbox is to weak,other says combination
43 Post contains links Viscount724 : Including these AC and NW A319s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRWcQ1CTOnQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTsKWoMEh3g
44 Post contains images Max777geek : Oh, I was sarcastic all the time, Im italian.
45 Post contains images AF1624 : Indeed. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it was impossible to do it, but it was very hard. The shape of the wings of the Concorde and the absence of
46 David L : They had to make some tweaks early on but the low speed handling ultimately wasn't as bad as people think.
47 Post contains links and images BlueShamu330s : Talk about a textbook crosswind landing....this one's my favourite. A lovely crab,an absolute greaser and aerodynamic braking....look at the rudder wo
48 Irobertson : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv...5t2Pg That was gorgeous! I could watch landings like this all day.
49 Mortyman :
50 Mortyman : Concorde
51 KPWM : Those two are great. That looked like a hard touchdown on the first one.
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