Deltadude From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 7249 times:
The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers said it is joining with a passenger rights group to oppose any mergers by big airlines. The union represents baggage handlers, ticket agents and other employees at Northwest, United and Continental Airlines, but not at Atlanta-based Delta, which is largely non-union.
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6093 times:
Sounds like the deal is off for now, and for good reason. Less choice for the traveling public, aviodance of the inevitable furloughs... and no bounus for the most easily interchangeable component in the airline business...the Execs!!! Yeah, sure the Senior Executive Assistant to the Associate VP of Revenue Enhancement DESERVES her $1.5 million stock option, but I'm glad she won't get it!
That's how I interpreted this exerpt from an AP release today:
"Other conditions include that the combined airline be called Delta and be headquartered in Atlanta. Officials familiar with the talks have said those criteria have already been met, as have most other issues, except for pilot integration.
"Rest assured that we will not complete a transaction unless all of these conditions are met," the Delta executives said in the memo. "We have a strong stand-alone plan. We will maintain our attention on executing that plan while we continue to look at strategic alternatives."
Not too long ago, Delta and Northwest seemed all but certain to announce a combination soon."
That still could happen, but the pilot impasse has jeopardized a deal.
There isn't going to be any of this pilot seniority integration crap from here on out...either the pilots are happy with it, or the deal is stopped cold.
Breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5946 times:
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 17): And its nothing new, either, but the millions the Wall Street suits and airline execs have made while work groups are taking pay cuts is going to stop.
Not that I disagree at all with you from a philosophical standpoint, but how exactly is it going to stop? Unless the mothership has landed somewhere and laid out the new rules for planetary corporate assimilation, there's nothing about what's going on here that's going to change the tide of corporate and investor greed.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
N908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 885 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5934 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1): does not sound good at all,more and more resentments against the merger..
But that would mean any major merger in the US airline-industry will be shelled by unions ?
Um, yeah...? The IAM said it best in their little blurb that they got over the newswires today...Mergers are great for investors, but not employees. And, so they argued, not passengers. I guess that last one remains to be seen either way.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):
"Massive" job cuts are doubtful, but the vote to eliminate union representation is likely after the merger, and the more likely motivation for their public protests.
Well, 'massive' is relative, but you can bet your bottom dollar a DL/NW merger would eliminate a couple thousand jobs, the whole point of the merger is to trim 'fat'.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
EssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5905 times:
Quoting N908AW (Reply 20): Well, 'massive' is relative, but you can bet your bottom dollar a DL/NW merger would eliminate a couple thousand jobs, the whole point of the merger is to trim 'fat'.
right. Wall Street is about short term profits, particularly in such highly regulated industries like the airlines.
Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 19): there's nothing about what's going on here that's going to change the tide of corporate and investor greed.
True. But thanks to those great folks at Enron, closer scrutiny is being paid to corporate activities. Any merger b/t 2 of the top 6 airlines will have a hard time passing the DOJ without a size reduction... and, the precedent has been set that the seniority lists, particularly of the pilot groups, be preordained or the deal will never happen. That, btw, is exactly what is happening now.
Breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5870 times:
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22): True. But thanks to those great folks at Enron, closer scrutiny is being paid to corporate activities. Any merger b/t 2 of the top 6 airlines will have a hard time passing the DOJ without a size reduction... and, the precedent has been set that the seniority lists, particularly of the pilot groups, be preordained or the deal will never happen. That, btw, is exactly what is happening now.
Ok - reality check here. The ordeal with the puppet company that was Enron I'm afraid has little or no bearing on an airline industry merger. You might as well compare Dolly Parton to the Three Stooges.
DOJ is interested in excessive route overlap that would hinder competition or increase the risk of a monopoly in a given market. There's a 3% - yes, 3% route overlap in a DL/NW combination. And there's no virtual market monopolies that a combined NW/DL would create that don't **ALREADY EXIST** today (MSP, DTW, CVG, SLC, MEM). So in the end, there's nothing the DOJ will look at and say "shed it." Now the BOD's on the other hand may eventually force some hub consolidation, but that will be a purely internal issue and have nothing to do with regulators.
What precedent are you speaking of with the "preordained pilot deal?" Sure, there's some great lessons to be heeded out there (HP/US), but no legal precedent has been set. Is it a good idea to strike an accord prior to entry? Absolutely. Is it required? Not at all. As others have stated, is this deal is to happen, it will happen despite the senority issue. The recent posturing in ATL and MSP from management are just a gentle way of saying "get it done boys" and I do think the boys will get it done.
If you don't want to see a merger, that's cool. I myself could care less. But let the facts prevail and guide us. There's enough BS on here already on both pro and cons sides.
[Edited 2008-02-26 21:16:55]
[Edited 2008-02-26 21:26:53]
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
Beertrucker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5777 times:
I see a lot of people saying that they are not coming to an agreement so the deal is off. I see a lot of people saying they will work it out.
My feeling is to this. I think it speaks well of Delta and Northwest that they are still sitting there trying to work things out. They are trying to make both sides happy. Some might remember the Northwest and Republic merger back in the day. Now that was one of the worst mergers I heard about from other rampers who were around for that. I hear there was still kinda bad feelings about it many years and I mean many years after the fact.
I think them taking the time to try to make it better for both sides is a good thing. Cause if they really wanted to they could just say sorry about your luck we are merging and you will just have to live with it.
So yes Delta/Northwest take the time to work on this so that you can make it work.
25 EssentialPowr: Making it work... what is the benefit to the average citizen or airline employee? Less competetition, pay cuts and furloughs? Sounds great!
26 DLPMMM: Gee, for the employees it could mean more pay and a more secure future with a healthier airline. For the average citizen it can mean a more stabil ai
27 EssentialPowr: Airlines are (attempting) to merge to cut costs. Oil is $100 bbl, which is higher than most of their projections by 15%-45%. That "miss" in the price
28 Beaucaire: There are still some airlines that make more than enough money (at least outside the US ) -the latest examples of BA,AF,LH and IB have shown that desp
29 DLPMMM: I't just not worth my time to explain economics to you, and you really don't want to understand anyway. If you really want to understand the airline
30 EssentialPowr: Then why are you on the forum? Tell you what, you keep from teaching me economics, and I'll save you from learning from my background... Aaahh, what
31 ER757: I think you answered your own question earlier in the same post...right here: If they have fuel costs 15%-45% higher than their projections, then the
32 Rwy04LGA: I will be able to nonrev all over Asia instead of just NRT, ICN, and PVG. We just got our profit-sharing checks and a pay raise is imminent. Merge NO
33 EssentialPowr: Airlines are stable from a customer perspective. There is no profitable industry on the planet that is stable, internally, at any give time due to th
34 ER757: Really? Not from this customer's perspective!
35 NWAESC: Not with Steenland and/or Anderson in the mix.
36 DLPMMM: OK sparky, you want an education? Here you go: Consolidation = Industry Pixy Dust? (by Breaker1011 Feb 12 2008 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3842235&se
37 Allstarflyer: Been through 2 furloughs in the airlines in less than 4 years, still in the airlines and think this possible merger has the potential of benefitting
38 DLPMMM: Thank you for making very cogent points. I just find myself short on patience.
39 Goingboeing: Yes...just look at all the happy TWA employees over at AA. This is correct. They are GREAT for investors - for about a week (long term in Wall Street
40 DeltaL1011man: BTW guys this has already been posted IAM Opposes Airline Mergers (by Like2flyguy Feb 25 2008 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=3861934&searchid=3862366&s=
41 Breaker1011: Why does everyone keep bringing up AA/TW in this discussion? AMR bought TW on the cheap and the timing was bad giving the industry crisis shortly the
42 DLPMMM: Considering that ALL the TWA employees would have lost their jobs in a matter of a few days, AA actually saved alot of jobs for TWA employees. Not yo
43 Goingboeing: Actaully, AA would have been better off to let TWA fail and take what they wanted. Integrating work groups didn't make the merger go all that well. A
44 DLPMMM: You first said this as a harbinger of downsizing: And then this when it is pointed out to you that all the TWA employees would have lost their jobs in
45 EssentialPowr: I will leave it to you, within the current thread, to educate me. Not as much as I do yours. Make your point on this thread. Most normal people don't
46 EssentialPowr: 1. Could (could????) mean more pay...Please cite a specific merger example in which this happened. 2. Define "stability" from a customer perspective.
47 Allstarflyer: . . . you mentioned that, but then you said this . . . Basically, you said authoritatively that "airlines are stable from a customer perspective" and
48 EssentialPowr: I defined it and did not refer to my opinion as an economic fact, and was consequently asking DLPMMM to define. Here's what I said: So now this is yo
49 Allstarflyer: The issue of "stability" started with DLPMMM's post prior to yours here , in which you mentioned the following . . . . . . which is followed by th
50 EssentialPowr: Then tell me why, from you or DLPMMM's perspective, they are unstable? Why do you disagree? Nothing but opinions from an anet perspective. When the c
51 Allstarflyer: And yours is backed up by . . . ? I see nothing but inflated opinion and not much evidence to back it up. Perhaps you could share why you're such an
52 DLPMMM: I gave you the link to a complete thread that goes into great detail. You replied with: Which tells me that you don't really want an answer to your q
53 EssentialPowr: Yeah, the RR is a solid determinant from people such as yourself you confuse opinions with facts...not to mention, perspectives as a customer vs empl
54 EssentialPowr: Allstarflyer and DLPMMM Neither of you have probably heard of Mike Boyd, but in addition to the U of Nebraska at Omaha Airline Customer Satisfaction d
55 Goingboeing: Why, you're forgetting about the profit sharing. Although you are correct, when airline employees are asked for concessions two or three times, and g
56 EssentialPowr: Absolutely right on the money. I said: in response to: Airline work groups had to give up 15-20% of their pay to get a 10% profit sharing check... Ho
57 DLPMMM: I'm sorry you are a 20 years experienced ramper out of work, but that does not change the facts.
58 Val: If the ugly merger between US Airways and America West is representative of how modern-day airline mergers will commence, you can't really blame them
59 MKE22: http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_8421155 Just an article updating things.
60 Goingboeing: I'll bet the fact is this...you are one of those who said "nobody should make $75,000 to sling bags". Is that correct? If so, consider this - are YOU
61 Goingboeing: One other thought DLPMMM....how much more are Pan Am employees making after their merger with Delta?
62 Allstarflyer: Goingboeing, I appreciate the response (although, it would help to include your link ), and Essential, you score a point for responding to reply 47.