MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3297 times:
Rumours previously mentioned on these boards by another fourum member were true, and AirOne has applied to fly to the United States. According to what I've heard (and now partly supported by the application), plans are to fly to Chicago O'Hare and Boston this summer (mentioned in the application), tenatively planning to fly to Miami by next winter, and Washington/Dulles or Toronto by summer 2009.
They have two A330s right now, with two more coming, which would perfectly allow four daily trans-Atlantics if that's what they choose to do.
Boston over Washington, a Star hub, surprises me, because Boston-Milan is a small market, although Boston-Italy in general is a huge market. However, AirOne currently does not fly to Malpensa at all, and won't until next month, so there won't be much feed on either end.
That being said, they are running on a tight time frame, and getting approval in time to start these services with enough marketing and ticket sales for the summer is stretching it. They do not need route approval, but they do need to be certified to fly to the U.S., which will not be a quick process for an airline with no long-haul flying experience.
They have asked for "rushed" approval of their foreign carrier permit. However, DOT is not very keen to rushing such a process (unlike rushing route authorities, when requested). The fact they have a good safety record and come from a modern nation will help them get approval quicker than others, but the fact that they don't fly long-haul will add to the time it takes. They can't sell tickets until they get approval, and the busiest window for booking summer tickets - especially to markets like Italy - is right now. It's almost certain they won't get approval in time for that mad rush.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3194 times:
Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 1): IIRC, someone had mentioned earlier that they had wanted to fly to JFK. I guess they will stay away from the busy NYC-Italy market.
Which is smart. Alitalia will be 3x daily to JFK, not to mention the mutiple daily flights on American, Continental, and Delta.
A330323X From United States, joined Oct 2003, 2961 posts, RR: 37 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): Boston over Washington, a Star hub, surprises me, because Boston-Milan is a small market, although Boston-Italy in general is a huge market. However, AirOne currently does not fly to Malpensa at all, and won't until next month, so there won't be much feed on either end.
Air One, does, of course, codeshare with US Airways, so there will be *some* feed at BOS.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
WorldTraveler From United States, joined Aug 2003, 4480 posts, RR: 16 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2776 times:
there could well be some strategic intentions for serving BOS as well. AZ serves it but has unsuccessfully tried to rework its schedule; perhaps they are vulnerable.
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 3571 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2541 times:
Quoting A330323X (Reply 3): Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Boston over Washington, a Star hub, surprises me, because Boston-Milan is a small market, although Boston-Italy in general is a huge market. However, AirOne currently does not fly to Malpensa at all, and won't until next month, so there won't be much feed on either end.
Air One, does, of course, codeshare with US Airways, so there will be *some* feed at BOS.
BOStonsox From United States, joined Dec 2007, 552 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2346 times:
Quoting Humberside (Reply 5): According to airline route news, the only onward flights AP will codeshare on are DCA, PHX and PHL. I assume they will have a more extensive interline deal though covering other destinations
I wouldn't be surprised. US could connect passengers to places all over New England as well. B6 has a hublet in BOS and LH recently bought a stake in them. Maybe they will codeshare?
BOS-Italy is a good market in the summer but not in the winter. There are a lot of Sicilians in BOS, but AP doesn't appear to be offering any connections there. AZ struggled with BOS-MXP.
So far nobody mentioned ORD's flights. I think this will give AZ a run for their money, although connections are limited in MXP.
Rcardinale From United States, joined Nov 2005, 170 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2235 times:
I knew that someone would pick this route up but AirOne was a surprise! AZ has in fact struggled with BOS some years it made a profit others it didn't it was hit or miss. Personally i would love to see them at BOS but i dont think it will last long
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2161 times:
Quoting Rcardinale (Reply 7): AZ has in fact struggled with BOS some years it made a profit others it didn't it was hit or miss.
The Milan route never made a profit for the past eight years or so, although Rome does very well, and even though it ran only half the year, it essentially kept the Boston station surviving. Alitalia doesn't even offer a real business class product like on the JFK/EWR/MIA routes. They use their outdated Coral Class product. The switch to the Rome hub will likely turn around Alitalia's poor performance at Logan (and O'Hare), IMO.
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 6): although connections are limited in MXP.
Very limited. AirOne doesn't have a hub at Malpensa and currently does not even fly there at all.
I doubt how they are going to do very well launching any of these routes - BOS, IAD, MIA, YYZ, or IAD - without strong feed on at least the Italy end.
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 6): B6 has a hublet in BOS and LH recently bought a stake in them. Maybe they will codeshare?
No, absolutely not. This talk about B6/LH cooperating really has to end. They won't anytime soon. Never say never, of course, but it's clearly just an investment by B6, and not future cooperation. And yes, I know, they might hint it at it, but so what? That hint can send stock prices up a buck, and make LH more money.
BOStonsox From United States, joined Dec 2007, 552 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1951 times:
I'm going to have to disagree that there will be no cooperating. I don't think LH spent money on B6 just cause. They could get access to JFK, but what are they going to do there? There isn't much feed onto *A carriers there, unlike LHR where BMI is. LH has to get something out of the deal, otherwise what's the point. And I think AP could use the feed at BOS because they are going to have trouble during the winter (however MXP is close to the Swiss Alps, maybe they will advertise that for skiing?). I don't know why the US codeshare will initially cover just PHL, DCA, and PHX but it should be interesting.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1839 times:
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 9): I don't think LH spent money on B6 just cause.
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 9): LH has to get something out of the deal, otherwise what's the point.
The Euro is strong and the dollar is weak. It's a great financial investment. The point is to invest money and get money back in return, not to codeshare.
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 9): And I think AP could use the feed at BOS because they are going to have trouble during the winter
I have a feeling that Boston will be summer-only. During the winter they are looking at flying to Miami, as well as some Caribbean islands like Barbados.
They won't be able to even get 100 people during the winter on those flights. Alitalia struggles as is during the winter in BOS - the flight is popularly known as taking the typical 10-15 oversold passengers from the Miami flight.
United787 From United States, joined May 2005, 1043 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1824 times:
Would UA codeshare with Air One on the ORD flight? I thought UA should have started ORD-Italy so I am bummed to see Air One do what UA should have years ago.
I am curious to hear what people think about how they will market to and attract US passengers. AFAIK Air One is not very well known in the US. Plus, I think there name sounds very generic. I flew them in 2001 and thought they were good; seemed just like LH. Would Italian-Americans be very familiar with them?
B752OS From United States, joined Dec 2005, 962 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1693 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10): Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 9):
And I think AP could use the feed at BOS because they are going to have trouble during the winter
I have a feeling that Boston will be summer-only. During the winter they are looking at flying to Miami, as well as some Caribbean islands like Barbados.
They won't be able to even get 100 people during the winter on those flights. Alitalia struggles as is during the winter in BOS - the flight is popularly known as taking the typical 10-15 oversold passengers from the Miami flight.
Popular to whom? Yourself? And how do those 10-15 passengers get up to BOS from MIA? Does AZ pay for them to fly AA and the connect? Seems like quite a pain if true. They may struggle as you claim, but still manage to run the flights so it must not be that bad for AZ.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 1668 times:
Quoting B752OS (Reply 12): And how do those 10-15 passengers get up to BOS from MIA? Does AZ pay for them to fly AA and the connect? Seems like quite a pain if true.
Correct, they connect to AA, and it is a pain. Alitalia takes care of everything - passengers aren't charged for having to make a connection. When Alitalia's Miami flights are frequently oversold and averaged a perfect 100% loadfactor in December, it happens often. It's the biggest pain for Alitalia's MIA agents. At least Italy-originating passengers can be easily accomodated on other Alitalia flights that day. If an MIA-MXP flight is oversold, not much luck getting passengers on an AA flight to BOS to connect.
Ma dei voli ai quali la compagnia ha deciso di rinunciare non tutti erano in perdita come invece affermato dal piano Prato: ad esempio il Miami, che sarà abbandonato dal 1 aprile, faceva registrare percentuali di riempimento pari a quasi il 100 per cento, andando anche in overbooking più volte lasciando a terra parecchi passeggeri riprogrammati su altri voli per gli Stati Uniti via New York, Chicago o Boston. http://www3.varesenews.it/gallarate_malpensa/articolo.php?id=90905
(Basic translation) But of all the flights that Alitalia is ending from Malpensa, not all of them have been poor performing: for example, Miami, which ends 1 April, registers a nearly 100% load factor. Overbooking on the route is extremely common, with passengers having to be re-booked onto other flights to the U.S."
Quoting B752OS (Reply 12): They may struggle as you claim, but still manage to run the flights so it must not be that bad for AZ.
Not may. They do, hence the lack of a true premium product on the Boston flights. Obviously the route holds it's own, as do Chicago and Toronto, but none of the three are profitable. I think the switch to Rome will be a great turn around for these three stations. The problem for these stations has largely been the fact that the flight went to Milan.
BOStonsox From United States, joined Dec 2007, 552 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1585 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): Not may. They do, hence the lack of a true premium product on the Boston flights. Obviously the route holds it's own, as do Chicago and Toronto, but none of the three are profitable. I think the switch to Rome will be a great turn around for these three stations. The problem for these stations has largely been the fact that the flight went to Milan.
Exactly. BOS-MXP did poorly in the wintertime, but it made up for it in the summertime. More passengers are probably going to FCO so that is why AZ made the switch. I'm sure both BOS-MXP and ORD-MXP will do fine in the summer, but it is going to be tough after September. Good luck to them. AP is also very unknown here, and I only know them because I went to Sicily last summer and when planning the trip looked to see who flew into CTA. So I have a good idea where many airlines in Italy fly. Also, why couldn't they have gone to LIN where they have a hub? Then they would have better connections and not the BA-in-London-esqe switcheroo in Milan.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 21834 posts, RR: 62 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 14): I'm sure both BOS-MXP and ORD-MXP will do fine in the summer, but it is going to be tough after September.
They don't do fine outside of absolute peak June/July/August. The Boston and Chicago stations as a whole don't make money. Thanks to the revenue the Rome flight brings in, Boston's losses aren't substantial. The BOS-FCO flight does really well, which is why with Rome going year-round and Milan ending, AZ's Boston station might be on track (in my opinion very likely will be) to be profitable for the first time in eight years.
ConcordeBoy From United States, joined Feb 2001, 18128 posts, RR: 74 Reply 17, posted (4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1318 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): The problem for these stations has largely been the fact that the flight went to Milan.
...interesting.
I could understand a single station being an outlyer, but this seems to go against the common grain of thought throughout the aviation-enthusiast world that the heart of Italy's intercon market/yield lies in Milan instead of Rome. Would you say that (in the same vein as the likes of "commonality") is unduly overblown?
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