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What Is The Status On The 787  
User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1014 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9522 times:

A.net friends,

So what is the latest status on the 787? When is the first flight schedule?

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 9465 times:

No new news lately... ZA001 is still finishing up assembly and they're getting ready for full systems test inside the factory. I read last week that they successfully tested one of the systems (flight computers? i think... don't hold me to it). Right now power-on test is sched for the next few mos, and first flight will be a few mos after that. Gotta still do a lot of ground test, fuel tank tests, taxi tests, etc.... We still got a longgg way to go but no word on any more sched changes.

User currently offlineErhard From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 9452 times:

at this stage, it is still scheduled for 3rd quarter of 2008....time will tell I guess, but I do hope that there will be no more delays as I am hanging out to fly on a 787!!!!!!

User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 9438 times:

first flight is not 3Q... i think we're still on for june-julyish time frame, no?

User currently offlineBa777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9321 times:

I realize delays happen, and glitches occur, but why does it seem like everything is progressing at a snails pace? I know Boeing is working 24/7/365 on the project so they aren't slacking..

I remember the original schedule after the 07/08/07 roll-out was power-up by August, and first flight by October (that's three months) but now power up is STILL months?! away, and then first flight is MONTHS after power?!

Even though issues are happening, why such a gap for power-up and first flight? The plane has been "almost ready" for a while now.



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9071 times:



Quoting Ba777-236 (Reply 4):
power-up by August, and first flight by October

I think you answered your own question... August to October is the same as April-June...


User currently offlineSh0rtybr0wn From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8987 times:



Quoting Ba777-236 (Reply 4):
I remember the original schedule after the 07/08/07 roll-out was power-up by August, and first flight by October (that's three months) but now power up is STILL months?! away, and then first flight is MONTHS after power?!

No kidding. Something has to be very wrong but nobody will state what the problem is. It cant be fasteners. Period. There is no chance a company like Boeing cant get enough fasteners for 2 planes during a calendar year. Boeing rolls out hundreds of planes a year. Fasteners for 2 more planes, no mater how different and challenging to make, could and would be expedited for those first 2 or 3 787s. I don't buy the fastener story anymore.

Could it be something more serious like the barrel sections dont fit together correctly, or other large structural parts need redesigning ? Because even without "power on", Boeing was supposed to be "stockpiling" 787s from last fall until this spring, waiting until certification to deliver them all. Even if the power systems and flight control systems integration is slowing things down, the suppliers of sections, wings, empennages, and nose sections should be producing those parts and storing them. At least for the next few planes. Are they still building wings and other barrel sections? Or did they shut those factories down completely ?

Does anybody have any information?


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8933 times:



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
Could it be something more serious like the barrel sections dont fit together correctly,

It's my understanding that the fit for the sections on the static and fatigue frames was fantastic and Boeing was really impressed with the improved quality. I could swear there was an article about it a few months ago.



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8732 times:

LN 1 is on its way to completeing it's slow crawl through final assembly and is projected to be done in about a month with power on in April. First flight is scheduled for sometime around late June-early July time frame.

Static and fatigue frames are still in final assembly and it's rumored to be rolled out for the start of testing around mid March.

LN 2 started final assembly on Feb. 15th and has been in position 1 for the last two weeks.

Major structural sections for LN 5 arrrived at Global Aeronautica last week from Nagoya and Italy.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8724 times:



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 7):
It's my understanding that the fit for the sections on the static and fatigue frames was fantastic and Boeing was really impressed with the improved quality. I could swear there was an article about it a few months ago.

Yup that's true. There is no "major" issue. There's still a few kinks that need to be worked out. When the whole "fastener" thing exploded it kind of trickled down to many of the suppliers, and everyone's still trying to recover. Things are greatly improved, though, from where they were in the fall. It takes time to build a brand new airplane and make sure that it's assembled correctly and that it works.

From what i've seen, boeing hasn't taken delivery of parts for aircraft that should have been built by now. This is causing a backup/inventory problem for many suppliers, who sometimes must keep huge fuselage sections on their own property. This obviously costs the suppliers a lot of money and lost work time, and some might even ask Boeing for some "refunds" or early payment of future work just to get by. I know I saw an article about that somewhere, too..


User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8545 times:



Quoting Ba777-236 (Reply 4):
progressing at a snails pace

I totally agree but I'm guessing Boeing doesn't want to take any chances and miss something major..... It's better to fix something now than have major issues later

-Carl



If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently offlineNrcnyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Perhaps I am reading too far into this, but is it Boeing's or Airbus's advantage to set unreachable deadlines for the production of at least these two aircraft? I also agree that the public excuses for the delays in the 787 program as well as the A380 don't seam to account for the length of the delays. I'm just skeptical that both companies actually believed their original production and delivery schedules for both programs. I realize they pay large penalties, but perhaps it is worth while to snag the customer with claims you cant live up to and then playcate them after they realize you cant come through on the original promise. My logic is that it might be better to get the customer signed and somewhat committed than to be honest about the delivery schedule and risk losing the customer to the other side. A vs. B. strategy would be very interesting to study in a game theory class.

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8195 times:



Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 11):
I'm just skeptical that both companies actually believed their original production and delivery schedules for both programs.

I can't say anything about Airbus (without getting jumped on and mugged by some on this forum), but as for Boeing, I find it incredulous that their senior executives were on record as late as August 2007 claiming that the original schedule was reasonable and would be adhered to. It's obvious given what we know now that things were pretty ugly under the covers so I'm still trying to figure out: Were Boeing's senior executives flat-out lying back then or were they simply unaware of how bad things were on the shop floor? Either case is cause for major concern.

In any event, if there's going to be another delay, look for an announcement sometime next month. The last two seem to have occurred 1 month before the prior schedules' major milestone, in this case power-on.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 990 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8110 times:

I think the biggest problem is "travel work" Boeing is having to install a lot of junk that should have been pre-installed by the part manufacturer. As the line continues to ramp up this should ease significantly.


The voice of moderation
User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8001 times:

Everything that I'm hearing suggests that things are progressing slowly. How slowly is still an open question. I'm not ready to say one way or another that things are on the new schedule yet until final decisions are made and announced at the end of March. However, the goals stand (as of right now) for a power on in March/April and first flight by the end of June. Dreamliner Two is still ahead of Dreamliner One and center fuselage sections are being worked on for ZA003 and ZA004 in Charleston. Parts for ZA005 have not yet made it in to Charleston. The vertical tail for ZA003 showed up in the factory this week from Frederickson. Little tidbit for you Northwest fans, it will be joined to a rudder that is already painted bright red.

Onward,

IAD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8000 times:



Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
No kidding. Something has to be very wrong but nobody will state what the problem is. It cant be fasteners. Period.

It hasn't been fasteners for quite a while. CMHSRQ has it right in Reply 13...travelled work is the killer now. Mike Bair actually said it best...they took a production system designed for 1200 parts and gave it 30000. Boeing has, literally, had to invent the production system for LN1 on the fly.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 6):
Are they still building wings and other barrel sections? Or did they shut those factories down completely ?

They're still building.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 7):
It's my understanding that the fit for the sections on the static and fatigue frames was fantastic and Boeing was really impressed with the improved quality. I could swear there was an article about it a few months ago.

It was a Boeing press release at the time they did the wing/body join for LN1. By all accounts, the structural integration has been far better on this aircraft than any previous one.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
Were Boeing's senior executives flat-out lying back then or were they simply unaware of how bad things were on the shop floor? Either case is cause for major concern.

The latter. Although I don't think it was just exec's...nobody realized how much problem they'd have with the travelled work until they actually tried to do it.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
In any event, if there's going to be another delay, look for an announcement sometime next month.

There's supposed to be another announcement next month anyway...after the last delay announcement, they didn't forecast a new delivery schedule. They said they were going to assess where things were at and then release that in March.

Tom.


User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 680 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8000 times:

When it will speed on the runway for the first time, everybody will be curious to see how those barrels of carbon stick together in real life.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30567 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7917 times:
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Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 16):
When it will speed on the runway for the first time, everybody will be curious to see how those barrels of carbon stick together in real life.

Not me. I fully expect it to hold together.  thumbsup 


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5448 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7868 times:



Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 16):
When it will speed on the runway for the first time, everybody will be curious to see how those barrels of carbon stick together in real life.

I think I've always watched first-flights with caution, so this one will be nothing new.  Smile

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7728 times:
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Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 13):
I think the biggest problem is "travel work" Boeing is having to install a lot of junk that should have been pre-installed by the part manufacturer

The thing that I find fascinating is that, what seemed to be considered the largest technical risk, namely the paradigm shift from aluminium fuselage to CFRP barrel fuselage, hasn't even registered on the radar.

(Surprise, surprise), the real issue seems to have been from pushing system installation/integration work down the supply chain to high quality suppliers, but ones whose primary core competence is in aerostructures.

Managing those NEW organisational interfaces, and information flows whilst the design is still evolving, is RIDDLED with risk. (we've done the same in places on Astute)
And I'll bet my left leg that underlying all that is a lateness in the design integration maturity, just to make things more interesting.
Lack of fasteners won't have helped, either.

It would seem that, more recently, a more mature design, and greater familiarity of the various parts of the programme with the modus operandi, are starting to get things back on track.
That's good, I think, because I believe it is the right track.

Regards


User currently offlinePlaneWasted From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

Randy recently posted something in his blog about a virtual first flight:
http://boeingblogs.com/randy/

He writes "...integrated avionics and flight systems hardware and software that are now in final development."
Shouldn't that have been ready a long time ago if it was only manufacturing problems that caused the delays?


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7636 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 15):
Although I don't think it was just exec's...nobody realized how much problem they'd have with the travelled work until they actually tried to do it.

Tom, even that would be a huge disconnect. Boeing is an airplane manufacturer. How could they not have realized how much of a problem they had on their hands until they actually tried to do it? When the first barrels and wings showed up without any guts (and I think that was sometime back in April or May of 2007) they had to have known what was in store.

I seem to recall Mike Bair's famous speech (the one he gave after he was whacked) wherein he said that the original plans - and which the original schedule was based on - called for the assembly floor to install ~1400 different parts and components per airframe. The first barrels that showed up in fact required somewhere on the order of 30,000 parts or components to be installed and configured in total per airplane. How could they not have realized what was in store given that Boeing had manned their assembly line and production schedule to handle just 1400 installation/configuration items per airplane? Throw in the fastener problems and it would be obvious even to a layman that the schedule was going to go off the tracks long before August of 2007 when Boeing was still publicly claiming that all was going according to plan.

[Edited 2008-02-28 10:06:38]


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7419 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
I seem to recall Mike Bair's famous speech (the one he gave after he was whacked) wherein he said that the original plans - and which the original schedule was based on - called for the assembly floor to install ~1400 different parts and components per airframe. The first barrels that showed up in fact required somewhere on the order of 30,000 unique parts or components to be installed and configured in total per airplane. How could they not have realized what was in store given that Boeing had manned their assembly line and production schedule to handle just 1400 installation/configuration items per airplane?

I can understand it. It is something completely different than Boeing had ever done before, and everybody involved underestimated it.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7270 times:

It would be interesting to know how much work being done on LN1 is focused on ensuring future major components are delivered in exactly the same manner. One set of documentation as opposed to the "initial" and "long term" approach on the 380.

While it is huge pain for Boeing right now their engineers have the opportunity to double and triple check their designs and plans for stuffing in future production. making the problems slowly solved on the first frame well worth the effort.

Personally I'm impressed with the challenges and efforts that Boeing is going through and can see hope for a smoother production ramp in a year or so.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30567 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7076 times:
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Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
It would be interesting to know how much work being done on LN1 is focused on ensuring future major components are delivered in exactly the same manner. One set of documentation...

All of it.

Boeing and the suppliers are ensuring that they are working in parallel on "stuffing" the sections for LN001 and beyond so that they are all "stuffed" to the same set of documentation and procedures. This way, when LN001 is completed and enters the certification program, that certification will also apply for LN002 and beyond because they were all built the same way (as it applies to certification).


25 RedFlyer : I can understand it, too. My question is not why the program schedule went off the tracks but, rather, why it took so long for anyone to PUBLICLY ack
26 Stitch : Based on statements from 787 program management, it does appear they felt this was the case - though they didn't know it was 21x more work. They adde
27 SEPilot : That is the key question. Part of it can be attributed to denial and the unwillingness of underlings to be the bearer of bad news, but by no means al
28 Ncfc99 : Red Flyer, I also thought the same as you and was shot down for thinking so. These people are supposed to be some of the best in the business, but th
29 Zeke : When I last saw it myself they still had hundreds of engineers around the aircraft in a makeshift open plan office, still very empty, still lots of sy
30 SEPilot : Basically I agree with you. All I can say is having worked in small to medium organizations (I have never worked in one as large as Boeing) I can see
31 Stitch : I can believe it because the two issues are quite different in their scope. The A380's problems were not that the fuselage sections arrived incomplet
32 Zeke : Given the amount of design work that is still being done by Boeing to the get the 787 airborne, I think it is unfair to blame the suppliers. They hav
33 Ncfc99 : I know the actual problems are different Stitch, what I am trying to say (probably in a cock eyed way), is that Airbus handled announcing the delays
34 Post contains images Glideslope : I find it troubling that Scott Carson still is employed.
35 Post contains images Stitch : Understood. But I do not think either Airbus nor Boeing management were trying to be obtuse or do a whizz-poor job of informing customers, investors
36 VHHYI : Randy explains in a reply to a comment that while a previous release was ready they kept developing the software as the program was delayed.. Anyway,
37 SEPilot : Add to that the fact that the genesis of the 787 problems most likely occurred while he was still in sales, and thus were not on his watch. I'm sure
38 YULWinterSkies : June is not 3Q, but July definitely is...
39 Post contains images EA772LR : Cha-ching This has rarely been addressed. We've all talked about the lack of proper management with Boeing getting enough fasteners, but the actual i
40 Gearup : In view of the fact that this is the first ever shot at an all composite wide body requiring different assembly techniques and an all new relationship
41 Zeke : Yes, I think marketing was driving things that has cost Boeing months to catch up, it cost them time to remove temporary fasteners, an cost them time
42 Boeing74741R : I think that too. It seems to be a case of knocking and painting whatever they had to make up a plane, unveil to the world's press, then take it back
43 Pylon101 : We all are guessing. What I can tell you - Boeing did its best to keep everything completely covered. No emails incoming to employees. Outgoing ones n
44 Scipio : Would it be correct to say that Boeing made a mistake in insisting that suppliers meet delivery dates rather than delivery quality? Firing everone wh
45 Ncfc99 : I hear what you are saying, but it frustrating waiting so long. And this where I hope they pull it around, no matter how bad it is, tell it as it is.
46 Post contains images Astuteman : To repeat myself, I haven't seen anywhere that technology has been a root cause problem for any delay whatsoever on the 787. The problems seem to hav
47 Stitch : It likely did, but again, this is because Boeing felt they could take essentially empty barrels in March and April and have them completed by July wi
48 Tdscanuck : The initial build was ready a long time ago. What was notable this time was that they were running the blockpoint that would actually be on the aircr
49 Stitch : The technology appears to be okay. Boeing continues to state that all tests of the systems and materials are going as or better then planned. The pro
50 PlaneWasted : He also mentions hardware. I find it strange that the hardware is not done yet.
51 AirNZ : Genuine question.......what exactly were they trying to do that they, or no-one else ever had done before? I'm not referring to the technology of the
52 Stitch : I would say the level of systems pre-integration prior to the parts being delivered to the factory for final assembly. Airbus widebody sections and w
53 Post contains images Flybyguy : The 787 is a remarkable airplane that has many facets that are new. It takes time to get all these ready. I'm confident that the new schedule will be
54 Tdscanuck : Assemble an airplane from piece parts on an assembly line built to take only 5% of that number of parts. Boeing tried to take a 787 that was almost e
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