Lobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15781 times:
Multiple sources told WCCO-TV, WCCO Radio and CBS News on Thursday that the merger talks between Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines are off.
Sources said the carriers have walked away from the negotiations because the two pilots unions could not reach an agreement on integrating their seniority lists.
Pilots with more seniority bid first for desirable planes and routes. Lower-ranked pilots are the first to be laid off.
The Associated Press said Thursday morning Northwest pilots were still looking for a solution to the stalled talks, and said they weren't under a deadline to make a deal.
A person familiar with the pilot negotiations who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the situation, said Wednesday negotiators from both pilots unions have not met since Feb. 21. It was not clear when or if the two sides would meet again.
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3214 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15596 times:
Although I think what happened at AA/TW was terrible, I am surprised that the pilot unions would have this much influence on the merger. I personally don't think the unions should have say in the matter. If McDonalds and Subway decided to merge because they determined that was the best for their business, do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.
Since DL has previously said numerous times that they don't want to merge, and were essentially being forced to explore merging by their investors, I wonder if they purposely set this merger up for failure...for instance...I thought I read somewhere else that DL would not merge their pilots seniority with NW.
Nwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15530 times:
I agree, I am very happy that this didn't work, both from a flier and as a personal choice. NW is my favorite airline, and Delta is my least favorite, as you could guess this merger really didn't sit well with me!
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15347 times:
I think that any future mergers would create a mega-carrier that Congress might think twice about permitting. With the NW/DL deal, I always thought that anti-trust laws would kick in and someone might step in and put the brakes on the deal.
The rush to merge without a plan for integration, however, is ALWAYS a terrible idea. Daimler-Benz is in the process of divesting itself from Chrysler - and that one, at least, had a plan. It didn't really work, but at least there was thought put into it.
With many mergers, airlines included, the concept is, "merge now, deal with the problems later (or never), make $$$ for a few, and then jump ship before it is figured out it was a bad idea!!" Regardless of the business savvy of the person who negotiates the deal, the integration of two monoliths such as NW and DL will never be easy - and it shouldn't!! But having a plan, a vision, and patience could go a long way in making the bumpy road smoother!
As for the US/HP deal, it is good to know that the airline is thriving; however, I wonder how much certain groups were included in the process. Whether they negotiate or demand is another matter, but not including them at all WILL most definitely lead to severe problems down the road.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15310 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 4): do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.
As strange as it will obviously sound to some around here, but non-support from the employees is actually a crucial factor: a company without employees willing to work for that company is completely and absolutely worthless.
Sure, you can always say "they can always find new employees" - which may work for the Subway/McDonnald's example, try finding new pilots on the spot, especially if we're talking in the numbers that DL/NW have... that's not a task that's easily managed.
And an airline without pilots willing to fly the planes is... useless and worthless.
If a DL/NW merger (or practically any other large scale merger) doesn't get the nodding off from at least the large (and influential) employee groups, proceeding would be a recipe for desaster.
As for these two airlines... personally, I prefer NW not disappearing into DL... I'd prefer it to be the other way around...
AT From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15281 times:
If you're merging with another carrier, don't you automatically have to merge the seniority lists too?
So a pilot for 10 years with NW would have the same seniority and its accompanying privileges as a pilot who has been for 10 years with Delta.
That would be the most logical and fair way --- what particularly are the pilot unions objecting to?
Bucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15203 times:
Quoting AT (Reply 11): If you're merging with another carrier, don't you automatically have to merge the seniority lists too?
So a pilot for 10 years with NW would have the same seniority and its accompanying privileges as a pilot who has been for 10 years with Delta.
what if, and this happened in the case of AWA and USAir, a 10 year pilot at one airline is a 737 captain, while a 15 pilot at the other airline is on furlough? Do you take the furloughed pilot from one airline and put him on the list ahead of a captain at the other airline?
To a lessor degree that is the issue in the DL/NW merger. 10 years at each airline is not equal in your position on the list nor the equipment you can hold.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2402 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15041 times:
Mergers only seem to happen well when one is swallowed then eliminated totally. You need one group to be about to go under and be willing to be totally subserviant to the other and be willing to take concessions.
Look at what happened with Air Canada and Canadian. The nonsense still goes on despite the use of a mediator. So you push the merger through and face endless labour problems when the two groups of pilots fight back and forth. The Canadian pilots got a very good deal and then the AC pilots were upset. The only way it would work would have the pilots compete for seniority and assign it based on scores. You can see how popular that would be . That would go over like a lead balloon.
Cv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14998 times:
I'm hopeful merger talks are dead, but I really doubt it. There are a lot of issues to be negotiated, to think they could all be resolved in a week is nuts. If the investor and management want this enough, it'll eventually get through.
As for why they want to get the pilots backing, as mentioned earlier, just look at America West/USAirways. Those two groups will be at each others throats for years.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 24469 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14908 times:
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 3): There are things they can do short of a merger such as more extensive codesharing
I'm not actually sure that's true. (Let me put in a quick disclaimer at this point: this is all speculation). NW and CO have a fairly tight relationship now, arguably tighter than any other two US carriers. I assume that in order to gain government approval of a merger, NW would have to substantially curtail its cooperation with CO. In order to effect a "merger" (i.e. extensive codesharing that smells a lot like a merger), NW would likely have to do the same thing. Maybe that's desirable, but without a merger, there certainly are fewer incentives for NW to become closer to DL at CO's expense.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
ADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14861 times:
My feeling on the merging of seniority lists is by date of hire in craft. (i.e. the day you started on the NW or DL ALPA list.)
With that being said... Everyone would be grandfathered in to what you currently hold. i.e. B737 Capt in ATL will still be a B737 Capt in ATL.
If you want to upgrade equipment/position or crew base then you will go to what you can hold. But I wouldn't push a B777 Capt down to a F/O on a B767. I wouldn't want the training issues/cost etc.
My plan will not penalize you or force you to move/change cities but if you want to change you get what you can hold.
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 13242 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14426 times:
Both airlines - and I'm guessing the investment community - want this to happen; unions seem to want it too. So what can the airlines do to assure the pilots? Maybe, if this story is true, the message to the airlines is: we need assurances.
It seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that the most opposition would come from the junior DL pilots, since they would be lowest on the seniority list and therefore, on the precipice and first out the door if things went wrong. Could DL give them any assurances to protect them and reassure them?
As was mentioned above, even if agreement is reached, integration won't happen overnight. It's a long process and that's even in a relatively small company; if you're merging two large companies of 30-40,000 employees, this will be a very lengthy process. The fleets are all over the place and that alone could mean a wait of about a decade before the combined carrier has fleet commonality.
I guess, for NW pilots, the concern is that their AIRCRAFT, led by the DC9, will be first out the door, so what happens to those pilots in that circumstance? How will that be handled and where will they go?
I think the focus of both carriers will be to reassure the pilots' (and other) unions on their particular concerns over the next week or two.
UA and CO will want this to happen too, because if NW doesn't get hitched, CO can't either.
N501US From United States of America, joined May 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14371 times:
I think it is a only a speedbump; Too much effort has gone into the proposed merger. I'm betting the pertinent parties will take a step back and a couple of deep breaths and remove the speedbump. Better to do this now rather than after the merger.
Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
Mptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14199 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 4): If McDonalds and Subway decided to merge because they determined that was the best for their business, do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.
You cannot compare a food joint to an airline!! Those employees are expendable and easily replaceable, or can even automate it. Do you as a consumer care if a robot flipped and assembled a burger as opposed to a human, no. But airlines and passengers do not have that option, and the pilots can make or break an airline to a grinding halt.
So it was quite smart of both NW and DL to get that major stumbling block to the forefront to get an agreement, before doing everything and try to get that done, a la US/HP. I think this will either signal the pilot's union that the airlines are willing to walk away, and they take the risk, or they can restructure a marriage similar to KL/AF with joint everything except the pilots. They could even have joint fleet (type) and the same contract, but independent seniority, and down the road find a common ground to merge it.
I am willing to put $20 and say this merger WILL happen. Let's see how it pans out.
: I, for one, hope it's true, too. I still remember the saying, "see the red tail, go by rail" . Trying to merge these two very different airlines would
: This isnt hard. I am 45% from the bottom at Delta and in the combind list I should be 45% + - 2% up from the bottom on the combined list. Everybody wo
: Courtesy: Detroit Free Press Statement From Delta Leaders To Employees http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a.../BUSINESS05/80227019/1018/BUSINESS -----
: Yeah, they wanted the #1 RC pilot right after the least senior NW pilot. That's how they wanted ALL of the seniority lists...
: I would hardly say this deal is done. This seems like a negotiating-through-the-media tactic to put pressure on the unions more than the merger actual
: Interestingly, that is pretty much what happened with the TWA flight attendants in the AA/TWA deal. As long as they remained based in STL, they kept
: I am pleased. Let's see. Ok turn down a 30% raise. Yes, everone in america will get a 1,000,000,000% raise according to the pilots union and "we just
: One of the major arguments that I read about was that most of DL's older pilots with a lot of seniority took buyouts or retired. Now many of their "s
: There is more to this than just Seniority and pay........ these pilots are protecting themselves and what they have worked for. These are highly train
: I would hardly call any Delta pilot a "novice". Our average new hire has about 5000 hours and has been an aircraft commander in the military or a cap
: Apples and oranges... it's a little different from that, as I'm sure you know. Pilots are not a dispensable work group, like rampers, CSRs and even F
: but a CO/DL merger can't happen unless CO does the buying because of NW holiding the 'golden share' of CO, and I don't see CO buying DL and taking th
: guys there alot of pissed off DL stockholders so DL WILL merge with UA or NW. They will keep talking don't worry! I do think DL will go back to UA and
: 9/11 would have killed TW. Aren't you better off with a job or furloughed from AA than with a dying/dead airline? That comparison is a tough, tough p