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NWA-Delta Merger Talks Are Off  
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15245 times:

Multiple sources told WCCO-TV, WCCO Radio and CBS News on Thursday that the merger talks between Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines are off.

Sources said the carriers have walked away from the negotiations because the two pilots unions could not reach an agreement on integrating their seniority lists.

Pilots with more seniority bid first for desirable planes and routes. Lower-ranked pilots are the first to be laid off.

The Associated Press said Thursday morning Northwest pilots were still looking for a solution to the stalled talks, and said they weren't under a deadline to make a deal.

A person familiar with the pilot negotiations who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the situation, said Wednesday negotiators from both pilots unions have not met since Feb. 21. It was not clear when or if the two sides would meet again.


http://wcco.com/travel/northwest.airlines.delta.2.665024.html

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15189 times:

This article states some more info but that they will keep trying.

http://www.cbs46.com/news/15436291/detail.html

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15163 times:

This is great news (in my opinion)! Big grin

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15127 times:

There are things they can do short of a merger such as more extensive codesharing

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15060 times:

Although I think what happened at AA/TW was terrible, I am surprised that the pilot unions would have this much influence on the merger. I personally don't think the unions should have say in the matter. If McDonalds and Subway decided to merge because they determined that was the best for their business, do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.

Since DL has previously said numerous times that they don't want to merge, and were essentially being forced to explore merging by their investors, I wonder if they purposely set this merger up for failure...for instance...I thought I read somewhere else that DL would not merge their pilots seniority with NW.


User currently offlineCMHSRQ From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 995 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15059 times:



Quoting BAKJet (Reply 2):
s is great news (in my opinion)!

I second that, I don't want a merger.



The voice of moderation
User currently offlineNwafan20 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14994 times:

I agree, I am very happy that this didn't work, both from a flier and as a personal choice. NW is my favorite airline, and Delta is my least favorite, as you could guess this merger really didn't sit well with me!


Long live the Red Tail! | WMU Flight Science major
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4707 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14971 times:

Come on people...did anyone expecy it to come THAT easily?????

has an airline EVER EVER VER reached an agreement that fast with an individual pilot group that fast, let alone two.

The airlines just need to let the pilots know that the airline wont just give in for what they need.

The pilots will walk away witha good deal, but not the kitchen sink too.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14976 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 4):
I am surprised that the pilot unions would have this much influence on the merger.

It comes with the territory. It's been almost 2-1/2 years since the HP/US merger took effect; and the both pilot unions still haven't been integrated yet.

Quoting BAKJet (Reply 2):
This is great news (in my opinion)!

Hear Hear. Maybe now the press & others can stop all this    talk regarding airline mergers.

[Edited 2008-02-28 12:26:53]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14811 times:

I think that any future mergers would create a mega-carrier that Congress might think twice about permitting. With the NW/DL deal, I always thought that anti-trust laws would kick in and someone might step in and put the brakes on the deal.

The rush to merge without a plan for integration, however, is ALWAYS a terrible idea. Daimler-Benz is in the process of divesting itself from Chrysler - and that one, at least, had a plan. It didn't really work, but at least there was thought put into it.

With many mergers, airlines included, the concept is, "merge now, deal with the problems later (or never), make $$$ for a few, and then jump ship before it is figured out it was a bad idea!!" Regardless of the business savvy of the person who negotiates the deal, the integration of two monoliths such as NW and DL will never be easy - and it shouldn't!! But having a plan, a vision, and patience could go a long way in making the bumpy road smoother!

As for the US/HP deal, it is good to know that the airline is thriving; however, I wonder how much certain groups were included in the process. Whether they negotiate or demand is another matter, but not including them at all WILL most definitely lead to severe problems down the road.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14774 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 4):
do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.

As strange as it will obviously sound to some around here, but non-support from the employees is actually a crucial factor: a company without employees willing to work for that company is completely and absolutely worthless.

Sure, you can always say "they can always find new employees" - which may work for the Subway/McDonnald's example, try finding new pilots on the spot, especially if we're talking in the numbers that DL/NW have... that's not a task that's easily managed.

And an airline without pilots willing to fly the planes is... useless and worthless.

If a DL/NW merger (or practically any other large scale merger) doesn't get the nodding off from at least the large (and influential) employee groups, proceeding would be a recipe for desaster.


As for these two airlines... personally, I prefer NW not disappearing into DL... I'd prefer it to be the other way around...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineAT From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14745 times:

If you're merging with another carrier, don't you automatically have to merge the seniority lists too?
So a pilot for 10 years with NW would have the same seniority and its accompanying privileges as a pilot who has been for 10 years with Delta.

That would be the most logical and fair way --- what particularly are the pilot unions objecting to?


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14694 times:

If the news is true, I am immensely happy.

I cant wait to find out it is true, I was a firm believer in this merger not happening and others, well, just do a search  Wink



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14667 times:



Quoting AT (Reply 11):
If you're merging with another carrier, don't you automatically have to merge the seniority lists too?
So a pilot for 10 years with NW would have the same seniority and its accompanying privileges as a pilot who has been for 10 years with Delta.

what if, and this happened in the case of AWA and USAir, a 10 year pilot at one airline is a 737 captain, while a 15 pilot at the other airline is on furlough? Do you take the furloughed pilot from one airline and put him on the list ahead of a captain at the other airline?

To a lessor degree that is the issue in the DL/NW merger. 10 years at each airline is not equal in your position on the list nor the equipment you can hold.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14637 times:



Quoting AT (Reply 11):
If you're merging with another carrier, don't you automatically have to merge the seniority lists too?

If it were that simple, the HP and US would have already done it.


User currently offlineHappydad From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14547 times:

There are a lot of conflicting news stories out there. I wouldn't beleive anything until Delta and/or Northwest releases an official statement.


For example this article quotes an analyst who believe the deal still has a 70% - 80% chance of happening.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/0...t-ground-delta-northwest-deal-for/


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2280 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14505 times:

Mergers only seem to happen well when one is swallowed then eliminated totally. You need one group to be about to go under and be willing to be totally subserviant to the other and be willing to take concessions.

Look at what happened with Air Canada and Canadian. The nonsense still goes on despite the use of a mediator. So you push the merger through and face endless labour problems when the two groups of pilots fight back and forth. The Canadian pilots got a very good deal and then the AC pilots were upset. The only way it would work would have the pilots compete for seniority and assign it based on scores. You can see how popular that would be  tongue . That would go over like a lead balloon.


User currently offlineCv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14462 times:

I'm hopeful merger talks are dead, but I really doubt it. There are a lot of issues to be negotiated, to think they could all be resolved in a week is nuts. If the investor and management want this enough, it'll eventually get through.

As for why they want to get the pilots backing, as mentioned earlier, just look at America West/USAirways. Those two groups will be at each others throats for years.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23225 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14372 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 3):
There are things they can do short of a merger such as more extensive codesharing

I'm not actually sure that's true. (Let me put in a quick disclaimer at this point: this is all speculation). NW and CO have a fairly tight relationship now, arguably tighter than any other two US carriers. I assume that in order to gain government approval of a merger, NW would have to substantially curtail its cooperation with CO. In order to effect a "merger" (i.e. extensive codesharing that smells a lot like a merger), NW would likely have to do the same thing. Maybe that's desirable, but without a merger, there certainly are fewer incentives for NW to become closer to DL at CO's expense.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 2822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14373 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Happydad (Reply 15):
For example this article quotes an analyst who believe the deal still has a 70% - 80% chance of happening.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/0...-for/

Yes the key word is believe and this is also a blogging website. We won't know until NW or DL announces it.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineADXMatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14325 times:

My feeling on the merging of seniority lists is by date of hire in craft. (i.e. the day you started on the NW or DL ALPA list.)

With that being said... Everyone would be grandfathered in to what you currently hold. i.e. B737 Capt in ATL will still be a B737 Capt in ATL.

If you want to upgrade equipment/position or crew base then you will go to what you can hold. But I wouldn't push a B777 Capt down to a F/O on a B767. I wouldn't want the training issues/cost etc.
My plan will not penalize you or force you to move/change cities but if you want to change you get what you can hold.


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14052 times:

well, maybe this is going to be another chance for an AF/KL or LH/LX style merger....


300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12565 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13890 times:

Both airlines - and I'm guessing the investment community - want this to happen; unions seem to want it too. So what can the airlines do to assure the pilots? Maybe, if this story is true, the message to the airlines is: we need assurances.

It seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that the most opposition would come from the junior DL pilots, since they would be lowest on the seniority list and therefore, on the precipice and first out the door if things went wrong. Could DL give them any assurances to protect them and reassure them?

As was mentioned above, even if agreement is reached, integration won't happen overnight. It's a long process and that's even in a relatively small company; if you're merging two large companies of 30-40,000 employees, this will be a very lengthy process. The fleets are all over the place and that alone could mean a wait of about a decade before the combined carrier has fleet commonality.

I guess, for NW pilots, the concern is that their AIRCRAFT, led by the DC9, will be first out the door, so what happens to those pilots in that circumstance? How will that be handled and where will they go?

I think the focus of both carriers will be to reassure the pilots' (and other) unions on their particular concerns over the next week or two.

UA and CO will want this to happen too, because if NW doesn't get hitched, CO can't either.


User currently offlineN501US From United States of America, joined May 2005, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13835 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think it is a only a speedbump; Too much effort has gone into the proposed merger. I'm betting the pertinent parties will take a step back and a couple of deep breaths and remove the speedbump. Better to do this now rather than after the merger.


Fools and thieves are well disguised in the temple and the marketplace.....
User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13663 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 4):
If McDonalds and Subway decided to merge because they determined that was the best for their business, do you think any of the employees would have any say in the matter....NO.

You cannot compare a food joint to an airline!! Those employees are expendable and easily replaceable, or can even automate it. Do you as a consumer care if a robot flipped and assembled a burger as opposed to a human, no. But airlines and passengers do not have that option, and the pilots can make or break an airline to a grinding halt.

So it was quite smart of both NW and DL to get that major stumbling block to the forefront to get an agreement, before doing everything and try to get that done, a la US/HP. I think this will either signal the pilot's union that the airlines are willing to walk away, and they take the risk, or they can restructure a marriage similar to KL/AF with joint everything except the pilots. They could even have joint fleet (type) and the same contract, but independent seniority, and down the road find a common ground to merge it.

I am willing to put $20 and say this merger WILL happen. Let's see how it pans out.


25 Eastern747 : I, for one, hope it's true, too. I still remember the saying, "see the red tail, go by rail" . Trying to merge these two very different airlines would
26 Reltney : This isnt hard. I am 45% from the bottom at Delta and in the combind list I should be 45% + - 2% up from the bottom on the combined list. Everybody wo
27 Post contains links KarlB737 : Courtesy: Detroit Free Press Statement From Delta Leaders To Employees http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a.../BUSINESS05/80227019/1018/BUSINESS -----
28 4everRC : Yeah, they wanted the #1 RC pilot right after the least senior NW pilot. That's how they wanted ALL of the seniority lists...
29 IADCA : I would hardly say this deal is done. This seems like a negotiating-through-the-media tactic to put pressure on the unions more than the merger actual
30 FLFlyGuy : Interestingly, that is pretty much what happened with the TWA flight attendants in the AA/TWA deal. As long as they remained based in STL, they kept
31 BillReid : I am pleased. Let's see. Ok turn down a 30% raise. Yes, everone in america will get a 1,000,000,000% raise according to the pilots union and "we just
32 NwAflyer07 : One of the major arguments that I read about was that most of DL's older pilots with a lot of seniority took buyouts or retired. Now many of their "s
33 FlyguyPBI : There is more to this than just Seniority and pay........ these pilots are protecting themselves and what they have worked for. These are highly train
34 Bucky707 : I would hardly call any Delta pilot a "novice". Our average new hire has about 5000 hours and has been an aircraft commander in the military or a cap
35 UA772IAD : Apples and oranges... it's a little different from that, as I'm sure you know. Pilots are not a dispensable work group, like rampers, CSRs and even F
36 Post contains links CIDflyer : but a CO/DL merger can't happen unless CO does the buying because of NW holiding the 'golden share' of CO, and I don't see CO buying DL and taking th
37 DeltaL1011man : guys there alot of pissed off DL stockholders so DL WILL merge with UA or NW. They will keep talking don't worry! I do think DL will go back to UA and
38 Cubsrule : 9/11 would have killed TW. Aren't you better off with a job or furloughed from AA than with a dying/dead airline? That comparison is a tough, tough p
39 SNCntry32 : I would like to see some sources.
40 Indy : If it is true that the merger is dead it would be great news for NW employees and NW customers.
41 Post contains links CIDflyer : I don't think the merger is dead in the water as media reports tend to get a little over blown. I think DL and NW have done pretty much all they can
42 WhoopWhoop : I take all the press reports with a grain of salt. I can say though that the pilots arent hearing diddly from the union about it. The issue over senio
43 Alitalia744 : I don't see this deal as being dead.
44 Reltney : I like what you say!! Cheers! I agree but it is wishful thinking and it is what mgmt is thinking if the NWA deal fails. I like what you say......
45 FFlyer : Somebody tell me one good thing about NW, please! I have for a long time flown extensively on DL, CO, and also NW, and just can't understand why anyon
46 Indy : I've never flown CO so I can't say anything about them. I'm a big NW supporter. MEM is a very dated facility but is an easy hub to manage. MSP while
47 Post contains links Kiwiandrew : I posted this in the other thread Delta Deal On Hold Or Off (by Delta11 Feb 27 2008 in Civil Aviation) but that seems to have died now - apologies to
48 PSU.DTW.SCE : Making comparisons between the three, each has their pro's and con's. NW is not as bad as everyone on A.net likes to make them out to be. A lot of un
49 Ocracoke : If your boss tells you that s/he needs you tomorrow in Brazil, what NW flight number are you going to take? Or if you have a client to meet in JNB, d
50 Indy : Then I'll fly with someone else.
51 Bobnwa : Are you asking about NWA or NWA ALPA? Again I think you are talking about NWA ALPA not NWA. AF/KL will want whatever makes financial sense. The NW/KL
52 CHRISBA777ER : Well thats a shocker. Not. Guess all the DL fans can stop worrying about what to do with all those rubbish Scarebuses now, eh?
53 EMB170 : Because the NW/KL agreement is small potatoes compared to what AF/KL/DL could get together.
54 Bobnwa : So they would give away already have for could?
55 Kiwiandrew : KL do not get to make any decisions anymore - AF have chosen DL and KL will partner with whoever AF tells them to . There is a lot of doubt that NW c
56 Bobnwa : A lot of doubt from who. NWA is doing better financially than most other legacy carriers in the US in all areas ie: Pacific, Atlantic, and domestic.
57 EMB170 : Not so much could but would. When you look at the routes and flights that DL has across the Atlantic, AF has across the atlantic, KL has, and NW has,
58 EMB170 : Could NW continue to codeshare with KL onto destinations within Europe as it does now? (i.e. on an IND-DTW-AMS-OSL trip, codeshare on the AMS-OSL port
59 AA767400 : Bad comparison. It also pretty much sums up what the American public thinks about airline employees. Granted some are less than stellar, we should no
60 Post contains images NWAESC : Excellent point; thank you for posting it! When talking about airline workers-specifically rampers-there is a stereotype of these folks being just sh
61 Flysherwood : Are you seriously comparing workers at McDonald's and Subway with a pilot? If you don't have pilots, the aircraft does not fly. It is not like the ma
62 Commavia : AA has only "wanted to try" ORD-AMS once, back in 1999. The flight was announced, schedules loaded, and seats sold, but the flights never actually st
63 AT : Marginally off topic, but I am curious: do all airlines have pilot unions? If I recall correctly, with flight attendants, some airlines have them, oth
64 Lhpdx : Northwest should merge with Alaska!
65 Commavia : Pretty much, yeah. There are some exceptions - like JetBlue - where mostly young airlines haven't yet gotten unions on the property. But give it time
66 Revelation : Absolutely. I think I read in another thread that pilots would give up their first born before moving down one position on the seniority list.
67 Falstaff : Anybody who likes the union representation and or reaps its benefits, but doesn't pay their fair share is a freeloader. If a person chooses not to be
68 LongHauler : This is an excellent example of why it is so difficult. The CP pilots ALL lost seniority with respect to the AC pilots. On the combined AC/CP list, t
69 Post contains links and images Bmacleod : Quoting CMHSRQ (Reply 5): I second that, I don't want a merger. Quoting Nwafan20 (Reply 6): NW is my favorite airline, and Delta is my least favorite
70 Post contains images Flysherwood : Well the World Business Class is a pretty good product. I do a lot of business in Asia and it is very handy traveling between NRT and other destinati
71 Lhpdx : This is the best news that I've heard in a while!
72 Post contains images BAKJet : Agreed their service isn't that great, but they have pretty cheap fares(usually) and lots of n/s out of IND. NW is my favorite legacy carrier for the
73 DTWAGENT : The problem is that NW has its most SR. flying the B744, A330's and B757's. While DL has had a masive about to pilots that left in the last 2 years. A
74 FLFlyGuy : Oh, no....we don't have to belong to the union at all. We can choose not to. However, APFA can force AA to fire us if we don't pay the dues...whether
75 SNCntry32 : PSU, I am glad you think the airlinks do a decent job. I haven't flown many other airlines besides NW, but for all of their airlinks, they have jet b
76 DeltaL1011man : not to hard go to yahoo check look up DAL(thats Delta).....It isn't Rocket Science to see that DL was offered 10 bill and they turned it down. The st
77 Artsyman : This really should be a lot more simple. It is not as if there are a load of choices 1. One airline goes to the top of the list, one goes to the botto
78 Cv640 : NWA pilots would like that Delta wouldn't. NWA has a much more senior pilot force, so they would occupy the top spots if you do stricitly DOH. So, Del
79 N908AW : The problem as explained to me is basically this: Since Delta would be the existing carrier, and more Delta fleet would be kept than NW fleet (767s +
80 Alias1024 : Except it is hard due to career progression expectations for the two pilot groups. A pilot 45% from the bottom at DAL has already seen the career pro
81 NWADTWFA : A couple thoughts, just to play devil's advocate. Does anyone truly believe that a NEW Delta (merger in the truest sense of the word) would really ge
82 SESGDL : Delta has 101 767s, 21 767-300 domestic aircraft, 59 767-300ERs, and 21 767-400ERs. DL also has 9 777s, 8 777ERs and 1 777LR, soon to be 2. NW has 32
83 Alias1024 : NWADTWFA, I'm guessing you meant to attribute that quote to N908AW.
84 Bobnwa : The DL/NW will be a stock swap merger. There will be little cash involved. Didn't we talk about stock swaps before when you thought the stock would b
85 StarAlliance38 : I don't want a merger, but if DL is going after UA, I say merge with NW rather than UA Hands off Star!!
86 IliriBDL : Any chance now that the NW - DL deal is off (or the talks are off) that US will try and start talks with one of them? Or with UA for example.
87 Dallasnewark : It looks like the merger is close to being dead. Both stocks are down moren than 5%, i.e. being dumped by people who know a bit more than they legally
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