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LH A320 Crosswind Landing Incident (Video)  
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2840 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89202 times:

Just saw this picture of LH A320 D-AIQP landing during a storm today at HAM and thought it would be worth to share it:

http://www.aviation-community.de/for...92f3cc637bbcfeacb501b0ee1233#36618

(please go down to entry no 14)

They say that at least on winglet was destroyed, maybe even both of them.

By the way, thank you to the photpgraphers of Aviation community Nord for not only keeping us updated about the situation in XFW but also showing such amazing pictures.

[Edited 2008-03-01 10:19:13]

[Edited 2008-03-01 10:21:10]

300 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89955 times:

Big version: Width: 1000 Height: 666 File size: 361kb


Wow... That picture looks amazing!

There could well be structural damage to the wing...

(I hope its not a PSP, fake!)


User currently offlineLHRlocal From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89272 times:

Jesus, i think i would need a new set of underwear if i was on that plane!

User currently offlineLHSTR From Germany, joined Mar 2001, 226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89178 times:

Holy ****!
Good thing everybody is fine!


User currently onlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6054 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89124 times:

Wouldn't surprise me one bit, the weather up here in Denmark has been quite stormy as well. Heck, I even heard they had cancelled a Bundesliga-game somewhere as they were concerned about a hurricane developing  Wow!

User currently offlineSandroZRH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89027 times:

Holy Sh1t!

Must have caught a gust from the right during flaring, look spretty ugly. Luckily, the engine didnt touch the ground, or did it?

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 4):
I even heard they had cancelled a Bundesliga-game somewhere as they were concerned about a hurricane developing

They did indeed. We had lots of wind here aswell, and at least two flights from ZRH to Germany returned to ZRH after failed approaches.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 89007 times:

In the thread is stated the plane lost at least its left winglet (wingfence).



And yes, you are right CPH-R, they cancelled Cottbus - Stuttgart; stormwarning.


User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 88856 times:

Wow, that could have easily ended in a serious accident.

User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 88845 times:

Ouch, what will happen to her? A simple replacement of the winglet or the wing and winglet? I give the pilots kudos for landing her in that kind of weather. LH does train its pilots very well so hats off to them for saving the day.

Kinghunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11704 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 88757 times:

That looks fake to me - the right main gear especially shows some flat edges which makes me think it has been cut out of another picture.


Dan  Smile



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineLh470 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 88740 times:



Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9):

There seems to be also a video... simply amazing...  Wink


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVx3JOsfJw



319-321,313,AB6,333,343,346,388,732-738,762/3,772/3,747SP,741-744,DC9,M81/3/8,D10,M11,L10,DH1/3/4,CR1/2/7/9,E70/90,AR8,1
User currently offlineUzimmermann From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 88583 times:

They reported up to 94KM/H or about 60mph winds around 2pm in HAM. Nasty.

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12594 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88570 times:

Video is unavailable. Sad

User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1033 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88570 times:

It looks fake. Look at the right wing fence. The bottom half is missing.

User currently offlineLH470 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88770 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 12):

Strange, the link was working 3 minutes ago... Sad



319-321,313,AB6,333,343,346,388,732-738,762/3,772/3,747SP,741-744,DC9,M81/3/8,D10,M11,L10,DH1/3/4,CR1/2/7/9,E70/90,AR8,1
User currently offlineWF2BNN From Norway, joined Dec 2004, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88476 times:

IF it's real - there must me SOME media coverage of it... No?

Mats



What goes up, must come down.
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2684 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88441 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 13):

On the other hand, one could argue that it is very real. Look at the left engine and fuselage casting a shadow on the runway. There is also a reflection of either the left wing or left elevator on the aircraft tail.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineGiosetti From Germany, joined May 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88417 times:

From the Aviation Community Norddeuschland board:

"hab grad mit nem Kollegen und Freund aus der Wartung telefoniert der grad Dienst hat, er hat die Kiste bearbeitet:
Wingtip komplett verbogen nach oben, untere Hälfte des Winglet ist nach inboard gebogen ca. 45 Grad, Slat ist angeschliffen...sonst alles ok!"


which is:

Just called a colleague and friend who is on duty in maintenance, he has worked on the AC:

wingtip completely bent upwards, lower half of winglet bent inboard at about 45 degrees, slat partly grounded. No further damage.

[Edited 2008-03-01 12:22:21]


I play all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order
User currently offlineLH470 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88393 times:

Apparently, the video is not available anymore.

If you search on YouTube for "EDDH A320 crosswind" you will still get the link of the video with a thumbnail, but the video itself is gone...).



319-321,313,AB6,333,343,346,388,732-738,762/3,772/3,747SP,741-744,DC9,M81/3/8,D10,M11,L10,DH1/3/4,CR1/2/7/9,E70/90,AR8,1
User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2684 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88350 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 13):
It looks fake. Look at the right wing fence. The bottom half is missing.

It's there, you have to look carefully.

Besides, reply # 17 just confirmed it as being real.



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinePHKLM From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Dec 2005, 1198 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88519 times:

Quoting LH470 (Reply 18):
Apparently, the video is not available anymore.

It's up and running and utterly bewildering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVx3JOsfJw

[Edited 2008-03-01 12:30:53]

User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88334 times:

Video is back. Holy mother of God.

User currently offlineLH470 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88331 times:

Yes, the video is up and running again!

Kudos to the LH Cockpit-Crew! Fantastic job!


LH470



319-321,313,AB6,333,343,346,388,732-738,762/3,772/3,747SP,741-744,DC9,M81/3/8,D10,M11,L10,DH1/3/4,CR1/2/7/9,E70/90,AR8,1
User currently offlineGiosetti From Germany, joined May 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88293 times:

Oh my god, holy smoke! That video is definitely no fake! A Go Around.

Comment of the videographer:
Das ging beinahe in die Hose. ich glaube, dass die das hier bald einstellen.

(That's been almost a complete flop. I think they will very soon stop this here.)

[Edited 2008-03-01 12:38:06]

[Edited 2008-03-01 12:38:36]


I play all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order
User currently offlineGiosetti From Germany, joined May 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 88217 times:

The Aviation Community Norddeutschland presumes the video was suspended since it might have been sold to a commercial news station.

Good that it's back. Most scary stuff, holy smoke!

[Edited 2008-03-01 12:37:42]


I play all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order
25 LHFADUS : Watched the video 2 times. Links seems alright again. God, my heart is racing after having seen this video. Scary.[Edited 2008-03-01 12:52:59]
26 Kaitak : Sheesh ... I bet Lufthansa's press department must be very worried about that video!
27 Post contains links Giosetti : Further from Aviation Aviation Norddeutschland: "Ich kann mir gut vorstellen, dass das Video der QP als Beweismittel bei der BFU-Untersuchung herangez
28 Post contains links Wildbill1981 : The video is working fine now... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaVx3JOsfJw
29 ACDC8 : Didn't get much of the storm in NRW, glad I wasn't in Northern Germany. Great video and photo!
30 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Still not working for me, but obviously that proves that it's genuine - just looked a bit odd to me in the picture. I certainly would not like to have
31 EMAlad : Did the plane land safely after going round again? The video looks pretty scary, I wouldn't have liked to have been on that flight!!!!
32 Post contains images Giosetti : Seems so: "Also das war die LH044 aus München. Auf der Ham.Airport-Seite steht, dass sie um 13:55 gelandet ist. Das passt auch, da dann nach diesem
33 767Lover : Wow, that is incredible footage. I wonder what the passengers were thinking?
34 SQ325 : I wonder what makes her thinking that? The approach doesn' t look low or steep to me. But with 30+kts wind it is not always possible to maintain the
35 Post contains links and images OwlEye : I'm glad that the Lufthansa plane made it at the end. But what a coincidence, yesterday my father in law sent me this picture (found on the internet)
36 DAL767400ER : Umm, there never was accident like that, it has been established on here multiple times that that AF pic is a fake. Oh, and the vid seems to have bee
37 EXTspotter : That looks much more like a fake than the first one did. It looks like that it is just a plane which has been rotated and super-imposed, however there
38 SandroZRH : Works fine here.
39 Post contains images DALCE : WOW, I'm Happy not to be on that plane! Kudos for the crew to get it down safely afterwards! Poor QP has to go to the doctor now
40 Post contains links Giosetti : Here is a new one from the same afternoon in HAM, this time a B737 Also scary. i wonder why the runway was operated the whole time.
41 Post contains images SQ325 : Also removed from Youtube! LH PR is going strong at Youtube
42 Post contains links Giosetti : No, sorry, I posted a malformed link, try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BaQ5B1ACEo or do a youtube search "EDDH Hamburg - B737 Crosswind approa
43 Giosetti : IMHO this B737 video shows that it was completely questionable that the AC were allowed to touch down on this rwy at this point of time. Here actually
44 Post contains images Newark777 : I downloaded a copy off Youtube in case LH goes Tom Cruise on us and has them all removed.
45 Giosetti : I think a wohle bunch of people have this on their drives. There are numerous forums who discuss this "live".
46 Post contains links Mhodgson : The LiveLeak video in this thread works: Hamburg - A320 Nearly Crashed During Crosswind App (by JasonMiller Mar 1 2008 in Civil Aviation)
47 Giosetti : The B737 was an AB BTW. One of the posters thinks to have heard the AB pilot to have farewelled ATC with an all but friendly "have a nice day!"
48 JasonMiller : Hamburg - A320 Nearly Crashed During Crosswind App Found on Liveleak.com: Hamburg - A320 nearly crashed during crosswind approach 1st march 2008 - A32
49 Post contains images TupolevTu154 : They have! None of the previous links work. Really wanting to see this video now! Tom Edit: Just seen it in the above post. Nasty![Edited 2008-03-01
50 ACDC8 : I'm assuming that the AB 737 video was before the LH 320 video? Amazing how you can see the smoke from the tires at touchdown just blow off to the lef
51 Icelandair75W : Although the crew was smart in going around even after an approach like that, it was quite stupid of them to even perform the approach. 60 knots with
52 SandroZRH : And who said that there was a 60 knots wind? Would you be so kind to share the active METAR of that approach with us? I'm sure the crosswind limit wa
53 Post contains links Giosetti : Well, the AB 737 was not far from being alike, also a pretty hefty wind shear at the moment of touching the rwy. Less hair-raising is a BA 757 landin
54 Giosetti : There was AB 6300 from MUC landing at 13.35h. Other AB came in either too early or too late. So, yes, I think you're right. The LH was 13.55. There w
55 Flyf15 : I'm going to put my hand up for the group that says these pilots were idiots. They attempted an approach/landing in winds well beyond what was safe a
56 Sevenforeseven : FAKE...................................
57 ACDC8 : Thanks for the info! The BA757 video seems to have been removed as well. Any guesses why? I can understand LH wanting to have their video removed, bu
58 Giosetti : I'm with you here, particularly saying that this outcome was extremely lucky. Yet I would say not only attempting the landing was hazardous, but also
59 ScrubbsYWG : ummmmm..... did you watch the video?
60 Giosetti : I just think there are now parallelly hundreds of people watching and downloading these clips, so the servers won't allow too many clients to connect
61 Wildbill1981 : And why do you say that?
62 Post contains images AviationMaster : Ahhh... this thread has 'armchairing' written all over it...
63 Post contains images ACDC8 : Makes sense, thanks again! I didn't say that, not my quote ...
64 Gkyip : I'm not sure that I agree. The approach looked stable until the final 50ft or so. To me, they were very UNlucky in that they seemed to have caught a
65 TheSonntag : They obviously reacted pretty fast once they realised how bad it was. I am no pilot, but the decision to go around might have come late, but not too l
66 MrBrightSide : This A/C had to be low on fuel to allow a landing at such a crosswind... it was almost blown off from the runway...
67 Post contains images Ikramerica : Why would anyone land in that? Why wouldn't HAM shut down? Unfortunately, it's real. It seems like it has to be fake, because landing in that weather
68 TheSonntag : Unfortunately all of Germany is harmed by a terrible storm today, and you have to land somewhere. Just maybe not on this runway. I am certain that th
69 Icelandair75W : There?
70 Cbphoto : I couldnt tell in the video, but did it touch its right wing as well on the ground?
71 NCB : It's always at pilot's discretion. ATC has no responsibilities on that regards. To me this looks like a very bad landing. Obviously not enough starbo
72 Giosetti : On what grounds? The author filmed a landing and puts it on youtube. It is his clip, unless he sells it. If he sells it not saying that he has lost c
73 Giosetti : Tough point that you make. Let's assume we were 20 years back. This messy landing would have gone unnoticed by the public. Maybe some person in the t
74 Theginge : Were you in the cockpit? How do you know that they will face discipline?? I am sure the QAR recorders will be examined and if it turns out that they
75 SandroZRH : No. they reported the top measured windspeed in Hamburg around 2pm was 60kts. This could have been anywhere in or around Hamburg, and just a single g
76 AviationMaster : If every single individual had the capability of knowing the outcome of every flight, then I bet that flight would have not taken off at all, but tha
77 Flyf15 : Airlines don't leave luck and chance up to the successful completion of the flight. These pilots bit off a lot more than they could chew... tried to
78 Post contains links NCB : The airplane bounced on the wrong wheel... that pretty much says it all. Looks very similar to the LCY RJ100 incident almost wingtip striking aswell:
79 Post contains images Ikramerica : I would imagine that they could have diverted to a location further inland from the North Sea than HAM, but maybe it was impossible. But just watchin
80 Post contains links Baron52ta : The aircraft left the runway and that was the reason for the go around about :45 into the clip http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185[Edited 2
81 LHFADUS : How many of us have ever landed an aircraft of that size in those weather conditions....? NONE? Okay, next question. How many of us have ever landed a
82 Giosetti : What's wrong with sitting in an armchair at a stormy night? LH does a tremendously well PR. They would only loose in going after the author of the cl
83 NCB : Are you a LH pilot? I hope not otherwise I'm calling the JAA. I'm a pilot, and I can tell you that that landing was very bad.[Edited 2008-03-01 16:41
84 APFPilot1985 : FlyF15 probably has. I've made approaches in Turbine Powered aircraft in weather like that no landings though because I went around.
85 Theredbaron : I have been to 6 horrible landings and 3 of them ended up in Go around... Certainly the pilots and all of us inside the plane knew the weather was bad
86 Arniepie : Seems like the weather (which is still bad at this time) is making for more difficult flying conditions. The Dragonair 747 remodelling 3 of its 4 engi
87 Flyf15 : Yep, I certainly have. Some of you may remember when the entire midwest US was extremely windy about a month ago for roughly a week or so. Winds at l
88 Post contains images ACDC8 : I've got my PPL and multi engine rating and have landed C172s and Senecas in xwind conditions (not even close to the conditions in the video). Since
89 Rara : I'm not buying this for a minute! I'm not a pilot, but I can't see anything wrong with the landing. There is a strong crosswind, yeah, so what. Thous
90 LHFADUS : Hold your horses. I never said I was a pilot. But good for you, that you're a pilot. Still that doesn't put you in the situation. As I've said before
91 Eaa3 : You´re talking about the YouTube video, right? There is no way that a couple hundred people could have any effect on YouTube's servers. YouTube is a
92 Ikramerica : This is why I placed blame on HAM, not the pilots. I don't understand why HAM didn't shut down because it is clear from other video that winds were s
93 NCB : EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008 Wind 290° 28 knots, gusts 48 knots, temporary 290/35/
94 Giosetti : That is only partly correct. LH was the last to land on rwy 23. The next landing was on 33.
95 APFPilot1985 : The amount of comments by people who have no idea what they are talking about in this thread is a prime example of what is wrong with this community.
96 LHFADUS : Correct. But still the same weather.
97 Giosetti : But on 33 maybe less tangible for strong and sudden gusts.
98 Giosetti : I don't find anything wrong with a community that discusses an incident.
99 Post contains links Mortyman : Some crazy ones: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f78_1184881277
100 NCB : But different wind direction relative to the aircraft. When the wind comes from 290°, the angle of the wind would be at 40° on rwy 33 but 60° on r
101 LHFADUS : Which brings us back to "MAYBE". You cannot foresee it. Otherwise ATC in HAM might have put 33 in use right from the start.
102 Post contains images ACDC8 : Add to that the arrogance of those who think that only trained professionals are allowed to voice their views and opinions ... Because it's his given
103 Rara : Well, yes. I've been looking at METARs all day long, from various airports, and this report is nothing out of the ordinary. Yet to the best of my kno
104 APFPilot1985 : If you don't care about the communities credibility, you are right. Hardly arrogance, i've spent a lot of time in doctors offices but i don't pretend
105 Giosetti : Well, as NBC in #100 puts it it was foreseeable, at least by and large. And yes, that is why I wonder why 23 was open for so long. And that is why -
106 Caspritz78 : I very much doubt that. They will do some disciplinary and probably put him in the simulator fro some hours and that's it.
107 Giosetti : Anyway, before I shut down the computer I think it is time to be grateful that all this did not become a disaster.
108 NCB : So after the incident they were able to foresee it? I understand your wish to defend your colleagues, but don't make yourself look ridiculous for tha
109 LHFADUS : I'm not defending because they are colleagues. I'm defending, because I just see others landing before them, same weather conditions. But who am I to
110 Post contains links and images NCB : That's an easy one to answer. You can land in a 100kts steady headwind without problem. What matters is the crosswind component at each runway. If yo
111 Icelandair75W : It's not a matter of whether I was in the cockpit or not. It's the matter that if the winds were being reported at that velocity as a crosswind, you
112 Peterpuck : It's called Max Demonstrated x-wind and it is not a limitation.
113 NCB : 1. Let's keep things simple for the amateurs on this forum. I try not to get too technical so everyone can follow a bit. 2. You know you are partiall
114 Post contains images EarlyNFF : So, after reading 111 posts and pouring a bottle of chateau Lynch-Moussas Pauillac, I throw in my I could not see the "you tubes", only the "live leak
115 PeterPuck : And you know LH sop's enough to say these pilots screwed up. You make yourself look like an amature by saying They will ot lose their jobs.
116 ACDC8 : Nobodys pretending to know enough, everyone is just throwing in their views.
117 JBLUA320 : Really? Better put your flame suit on for that one..
118 Post contains images EarlyNFF : Come what may...
119 Mir : Wingtip contacted ground. That's an automatic "bad landing" qualifier right there. It's not HAM's responsibility to shut down - it's the responsibili
120 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Hard to add anything useful after a B744 skipper's analysis. But like others, e.g. NCB, that's what I saw too, especially from the photo. Not enough
121 Tornado82 : Visible wing damage is "first hand evidence" in my book, even if this was 1970 before anyone had good quality digital video cameras and YouTube to pl
122 Post contains links and images Giosetti : Yes, I had forgotten about the damage to the wing. What does WCA stand for? (the web has everything from Weakly Coordinating Anions to World Clown As
123 PHKLM : Crabbing is the procedure that aligns the nose and tail with the direction of the wind, while the plane follows a different course. A prime example o
124 Gkyip : Sorry but you were not part of the flight planning process and it's very easy for us to retrospectively say that the pilots made a bad decision. The
125 Wirelock : Hi, does any1 know the status of the aircraft now?? what damage was caused... is it flying again etc?? Thanks
126 PHKLM : Judging based on the following footage I reckon Airbus jockeys know pretty well how to control their plane during a crosswind landing:
127 Giosetti : Thanks for the explanation. I've seen this technique very often with gliders. I didn't know this is called crabbing but that is certainly an appropri
128 PHKLM : In all fairness I have to say my video is a demonstration by Boeing on just that: torsion stress on the gear. It is a test that the 777 went through
129 BrianDromey : It a bit over my head, but as a PAX I would not have been overly concerned about the approach. It seemed pretty stable to me. From what I saw an unfor
130 Post contains images EarlyNFF : WCA = Wind Correction Angle = Crab angle just before touch down, you try to reuce that angle as much as possible. Very important on dry runways, beca
131 Post contains links Wirelock : http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20001130-0
132 SQ325 : The approach was as stable as all others before untill reaching 20ft! Only major difference was the strong gust they encountered shortly before touch
133 Post contains links Giosetti : A comment from apparently an ATC staff on http://www.aviation-community.de/forum-nord/ At the tower we do have for all runways at all times head-, cro
134 N14AZ : Hey Gary, you are doing me wrong. I didn't say this. Actually I didn't say anything except at the start of this thread. Something went wrong with you
135 EarlyNFF : no cake, I guess
136 EarlyNFF : where is it? Wanna see!
137 SQ325 : Quote from the Airbus manual "In strong crosswind conditions small amounts of of lateral control may be used to maintain the wings level. This lateral
138 Giosetti : Removed from YouTube by the author. Yet many persons might have stored this on their hard drives.
139 Theginge : It is not up to the airports, it is up to the pilots what they take off in taking into accounts aircraft and airline limits. Whose minima would they
140 Post contains links Kaitak : Here's a satellite view of HAM Airport; Runway 23 is the slightly shorter runway, in a South-westerly direction: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.63.
141 Post contains links Giosetti : Miraculously another image appears at http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2745/undhp089zu5.jpg and the Aviation Norddeutschland has arguments who may p
142 Post contains links PanHAM : I am not sure if the video was posted and available and I won't go through all 140 replies, but you can watch it under www.airliners.de go to the thre
143 Skyman : That was almost a disaster. Unbelievable that only a winglet broke. Emma really gave aviation in Germany two hard days so far. I´m also surprised tha
144 Giosetti : Yes, this surprises me as well. But then the clips were removed by the authors so can we assume they cut a deal and sold the clips? To whom? Obviousl
145 Post contains images KPDX : This is why I love Airliners.net! Look at all these armchair FS pilots!
146 Beechcraft : Thank you NCB for making my day. You made me laugh out loud.... Yes i´m a LH pilot, call the JAA. Please. Denis
147 Post contains links Giosetti : So. And here come the definite images. http://www.hamburg-airport-friends-f...hread.php?tid=763&pid=2607#pid2607 Anyone can now think about these pict
148 NCB : Thanks mate your colleagues did as much to me. I didn't want to mention that Lufthansa is recruiting 200 hour pilots...
149 KPDX : So your a female pilot from Belgium. What airline do you fly for? And what gives you the authority to talk about how bad the pilots landing was. You
150 Beechcraft : Yes, and incredibly enough, those 200hrs are mostly flown at their own flight school...those guys are dangerous.... Maybe you could run our Flight Sa
151 APFPilot1985 : And you are a 13-15 year old what makes you qualified to comment on this?
152 KPDX : Cool and you are a 21-25 year old. So what? Nothing "qualifies me" at all. I think it's funny and weird that this pilot on Airliners.net is criticizi
153 Post contains links PanHAM : calm down guys. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185 have a look at this. Hope it works.
154 Plunaaircanada : " target=_blank>http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1...04185 thanks! the YouTube link wasn't working
155 Post contains links N14AZ : Here we go: http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,538858,00.html At least the aircraft type has been identified correctly...
156 Post contains links Rara : The mainstream media has picked it up finally, here's a link (in German): (edit: N14AZ was quicker than me) http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,5388
157 Xtoler : I just showed that video to my wife and she ran off to the bedroom, screaming "I'm glad you don't fly anymore." I've been in those close calls, but ne
158 NCB : What's the pay like? That's my wife's profile. I don't want to put my credentials on an open and silly forum but ok since you are so curious, I have
159 PanHAM : I'd say yes, that was not dumb luck alone. That was skill and good training as well. I was in a LH 737 in June last year when ther pilot aborted landi
160 B767 : Is it often that gust,s can create such large roll movement?Personally,I got only 16-17 hours in a cherokee before my health said stop 10 years ago,an
161 Voodoo : Hmmm I can see an advantage of the Airbus traditional wingfence over the blended winglet. It looks like it acted like a tailskid.... and protected th
162 Voodoo : We also can get an idea of what might have happened to the TAP A310 at the airshow a few months ago. Not much.
163 NCB : WOW wow wait a sec you're blowing it to the limits. I said that pilot didn't fly as he was supposed to, didn't say the entire and full LH pilot's gro
164 AviationMaster : I don't know about the other European majors, but LH's and LX's flight schools cost nowhere near €80.000.
165 Jawed : I have been on this forum for 6 months. Even though I have never flown a plane, that makes me uniquely qualified to assess the landing in the video, a
166 Post contains images Beechcraft : And that´s the reason why i feel like watching an episode of "Golden Girls" every time a see an US crew... No offense, Guys.
167 NCB : A bit off-topic but I'd like to comment: LH's training is sponsored and costs 40 000€ but you need to speak German. AF and LH are one of the very f
168 Theredbaron : Same here.... BTW NCB next time use the train...avoid noobs!
169 Osiris30 : Then there was a great special effect department that put the video out! You don't need to be a doctor to know that sometimes they are heading the wr
170 PanHAM : May be some LH pilots here can educate you about the LH training and what it costs. The pilots have to pay for their share ususally by a loan which i
171 Post contains links NCB : KLM shows us the right way to do it: You all seem to know it better around here don't you? Go to: http://www.lufthansa-pilot.de/ and read: "Die Schulu
172 Post contains links Viscount724 : And the videos probably would have looked much like these AC and NW A319 landings at YUL. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRWcQ1CTOnQ http://www.youtu
173 Ikramerica : Different day, different conditions, different airport, different equipment. What is your point exactly?
174 AviationMaster : The pilots repay their share (€40K) once they start working for LH (usually via a small deduction from their monthly salary). Anyways, in order to n
175 Giosetti : Filmed from that position (spotter's place at Kaagbaan?) the HAM incident must have had even more hair-raising. There is some detail that strikes me
176 NCB : The right way to do it on an A319 by Northwest: Point is the airplane should be leaninig towards the wind when touching down and after touch down aile
177 Giosetti : I think we can collect a huge number of such approaches on the net but I guess that doesn't really help accounting for the HAM incident. Here the int
178 Jorge1812 : If you mean this for real....no words on this world can describe how dumb such a comment is!!! Meaning that around 40.000€ have to be payed by the
179 Jorge1812 : Is that Air Berlin Video somewhere in the web? georg
180 Post contains links Oly720man : From manchesterspotters2..... another casualty of the winds is CX039 B-KAG that suffered damage to all 4 nacelles and burst a tyre landing at MAN earl
181 Post contains images KPDX : Are you serious? Did you even read the whole post? His post summed up the whole thread! Hillarious!
182 Gorgos : Dont worry, he was clearly making fun of all the armchair pilots. And he was quite good at it too!
183 Post contains links Giosetti : It has been removed by the author. Maybe it will reappear when the dust has settled? The photographs BTW belong to the http://www.hamburg-airport-fri
184 Post contains links Giosetti : Oh, that was exactly what I feared: www.bild.de Disgusting!
185 Jorge1812 : Not my native languagy so I wasn't sure what he really meant to say. Thanks for clearing up. georg
186 PhilV : Top windspeeds (Gusts) were apparently too much in comparison to average windspeeds. So, it was difficult to judge a safe approach on that day in HAM.
187 Ikramerica : That's what I've been wondering. I'm sure there will be an investigation to find out exactly why this plane tried to land on this runway under these
188 Theredbaron : I like to trust people, and that includes pilots, I (like I said been to quite a few scares) think that they dont want to be killed, they are NO kamik
189 Post contains images Rara : And there we are. BILD, the most influential opinion-shaper in Germany, has declared the pilot a "hero" and his decision to go around "courageous". "
190 B767 : When they was about 30 feet over the runway,they were drifting off.As a result they put aileron into wind.Could it be that they turned to much into th
191 Artsyman : I flew into FRA today on an A330, and while windy, it was not insane. I then flew out of FRA on a B735, and to say it was completely insane would be a
192 LH498 : Glad nothing more than some big scare happened. I too believe, the pilots were caught by surprise by some severe gusts but did a terrific job by avoid
193 Post contains images KPDX : Oh you nailed it!
194 Tdscanuck : After the fact, it's clear. Someone is only at fault if it was clear before the event. Tom.
195 Post contains links and images Someone83 : http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/leserre...ger__landung/flieger__landung.html And in the german press the pilots are the heroes
196 SB : Oh for heaven's sake! What's the point of having youtube if every noteworthy video is removed.... I would have liked to have seen the other landings.
197 PanHAM : According to a newsreport, the German LBA hs started an investigation. I guess they have to. The media is reporting this relatively calm and they are
198 NCB : I understand your pride for your airline, the image of your country. Still, I don't see what difference the training has made here nor have you sugge
199 Fiatstilojtd : As far as I know: No, not at all The Pilot flying is with Lufthansa since 17 years (so longer than some Armchair CEO's in here are alive), Captain si
200 Post contains images PhilV : After a sudden gust where the Aircraft is not stable? Sounds odd to me. Speculating at its best. Maybe they were practising blind man’s buff as wel
201 Giosetti : I have revisited the clip of the B737. I'm tempted to not share your fanfare on good training and exemplary acting. I'd rather say next windy day I'd
202 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : Another link to the video: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...ope/03/03/germany.plane/index.html Do you really think that pilots are that suicidal
203 PanHAM : I think I put little emontion in my words. You make a mistake here, you compare apples and peaches. To compare the AB approach with the LH approach,
204 Post contains images NCB : Interesting, what is your source? Any info about the first officer? Pilot flying like the one who established the go-around or like the one that did
205 Post contains links Giosetti : http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,538993,00.html Spiegel is reliable, no tabloid. FO was a 24 years old woman.
206 Post contains links and images Fiatstilojtd : http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,538993,00.html First Paragraph   FO is a 24 year young lady...see below Edit: Giosetti beat me to it [Edited
207 Giosetti : Study again both clips very carefully. The A320 comes down a lot steeper and seems much more unstable than the B737 which is at the threshold earlier
208 Giosetti : The 24 years old lady? Of course!!!! Wild cat, one would say.
209 JoFMO : The article in SPIEGEL is quite interesting and explains how LH sees the incident. Both pilots are already flying again: "Er hat meisterlich umgesetzt
210 Post contains images Starlionblue : You're making pretty sweeping conclusions from one video clip. I think their roll "vulnerability" is little enough to allow certification.
211 PanHAM : @ Giosetti - first, the AB video seems not to be available. Second, as Starlionblue already states, you are making "sweeping conclusions" from a video
212 Giosetti : Nice pun. I make a conclusion not from one but from the comparison of two videos. I just describe what I see. One AC has considerably more roll movem
213 ZakHH : Standard would indeed be 23 or 15, but I would not say that 33 is used extremely rarely. I used to live under the approach path to 33 until last year
214 YULWinterSkies : For the amazing skills of the pilots, they should not be to the least. HAM ATC might be more worried... Why the h*** were they trying to land aircraf
215 PanHAM : That's over 30 years ago for me and although I usually worked 12+ hour days I was not always in the office. I'd agree with your 2-3 x per month. ....
216 Giosetti : Don't they do that? As I said, we'll see.
217 GivenRandy : Looks like it has been posted to the "main" page of AOL also. Article said gust of 155mph? Wonder if they meant 155mph. Either way, quite a gust! Hmm,
218 PanHAM : That is 250 kmh, on the ground. You should not hold an umbrella when that hits you. That would be grade 17, over 201 kmh. Grade 12 is 118-133 kmh and
219 Bardoman : Chill out dude!!!
220 Post contains links and images Zeke : Always required at some stage or you will come off the side. You can get away with more with bigger aircraft in such conditions, they have more inert
221 NCB : Indeed, only thing is we don't see that on the movie... I'd like to add that wing down towards the wind allows to keep alignement but also covers you
222 Enginebird : The video and a report about the incident will be on ZDF (German television) in the news starting at 7:00 p.m. (i.e. in a few minutes).
223 Post contains links Fiatstilojtd : Opinion in German Newspaper about this incident is changing from hero to maybe-heros or even "Deppen" http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,539069,00.
224 Astuteman : It's being shown on BBC national news tonight........ Regards
225 Giosetti : What's that got to do with it?
226 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : Exactly, good question. I would step into the LH Bird "Suhl" with exactly the same crew on any given day in the future - no question about that. I mi
227 PanHAM : eh, excuse me, I always thought that the condition for a Zickenkrieg is that both women know each other? I mean, your statement is totally unfair to
228 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : ...but according to this post from NCB is male
229 Post contains images Giosetti : Hmm - let's suppose the AB B737 also had a young female FO plus low fares plus calmer landing I guess I'd rather step into that one.
230 Post contains images PanHAM : ...well, I cannot read all posts. and even if I would, I memorize data for my business, this here is trivia and a kick to fill time. But, was a good
231 Post contains images Mandala499 : I doubt it since several had landed before them... on the same runway. I wonder if you'd say the crew of B-KAG that had nacelle scrapes due to wind i
232 Prebennorholm : Neither we, nor the newspapers, can judge that. This strorm created some unbelievable gusts. Today I received a graph from an automatic weather stati
233 Post contains links and images Giosetti : Whoa! First the storm "Emma" now the media storm: The tabloid BILD wants to award the pilot the Federal Cross of Merit, many others ask for thorough i
234 Post contains images Jorge1812 : I think he's in his room biting his ass cause he uploaded the video to youtube and Liveleak instead of sekking it for a lot of money (kust my guess t
235 Beechcraft : I´d rather fly with a 24 year old woman who has been trained execellent, than with a let´s say 55-65 year old Pilot who thinks he is always right.
236 Prebennorholm : Having studied the video carefully fifty times almost frame by frame I'm not so sure about the Bundesverdienstkreutz. The approach is very bumpy, and
237 Giosetti : Yep. I don't understand why he removed the clip from YouTube. If memory serves well he did so one or two hours after it had appeared. At that moment
238 Post contains links Starlionblue : First of all, video still available here: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...ope/03/03/germany.plane/index.html I know you describe what you see,
239 Jorge1812 : " target=_blank>http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu....html Meanwhile the Lufthansa clip is on the web a thousand times, that's not the problem - we
240 EICVD : This incident really is making the news. Its being shown on RTE news now.
241 Giosetti : I have made rows of screenshots of both landings, the A320 and the B737 and let them run parallel. The 737 keeps the crab position during the whole op
242 J_Hallgren : The LiveLeak video and a short story were just on NBC Nightly News and ABC Evening News...so it's been seen by a large nbr of few people now...
243 NCB : My wife is a pilot too, and she posts here as well. Try to explain that to the amateurs and "photo screeners" on this forum. They don't even seem to
244 NAV20 : Read everyone's comments - haven't formed any judgments of my own yet, except that it's clear that it was the worst possible sort of crosswind, not ju
245 Jorge1812 : No way to post the AB video somewhere? If you want you can send it to my email - would be nice. georg
246 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Noise restrictions led to at least one incident, an HV 757 at AMS: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19971224-0 The article does stat
247 ACDC8 : Which they also reported on RTL news tonight, also not the most reliable source. According to RTL, runway 33 was offered by the tower, but they chose
248 NIKV69 : Umm, no. Though the pilots decision to continue the approach was probably a bad one, their skill in recovering from the wing strike was amazing. Not
249 Post contains images Starlionblue : Oops.
250 Ward86IND : 1. Normally, yes, but not on an Airbus. Airbus FBW will auto-coordinate aileron and rudder based on sidestick inputs until 50 feet AGL where "direct
251 Post contains links Scrumpy492003 : Fox is reporting that the particular aircraft on the video was a "Jumbo Jet" http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334535,00.html Since when was an A320
252 Post contains images NAV20 : Not sure that that requires a 'master pilot,' Prebennorholm  ; as far as I know the option of 'crossing the controls' in crosswind conditions (in th
253 Post contains images Starlionblue : Gee Nav20, what a surprise that you latch on to that particular tidbit. It's not as if pilots are unaware of what is going on. "Oh crap we went into
254 Post contains images Ward86IND : Yes, that's the way I understand it. Interesting observation...I wonder how smooth the transition to direct law is. Say the plane is in a slight bank
255 Bill142 : This has just become headline news in Australia with passengers "coming perilously close to death" and "yahoo pilots endangering lives" and "the usual
256 Beechcraft : Ok, i don´t want to dig any graves here, people are doing that for themselves all the time. And basically all you are saying is that the crew screwe
257 ZakHH : I guess that question is valid. If today's media reports can be trusted (and I know that's a big "if"), ATC indeed offered the crew to chose between
258 Post contains images WILCO737 : Yupp, maybe! There is no ILS and such nasty weather conditions you always try to get an ILS! And if the crosswinds are within limits ten you can do t
259 Post contains images Starlionblue : You answered your own question. AFAIK it's not even noticeable. But we need some 'bus drivers to tell us.
260 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : Exactly, thats the point....isn't there the ol' saying that every landing where you can use the airplane again is a good landing - and as far as I kn
261 Post contains images WILCO737 : Every landing you can walk away is a good landing, every landing where you can use the aircraft again is a perfect landing! Nope, not at all! I was j
262 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : Thanks for the correction Phil. So you grew up. I remember some pics from you where you showed a pic of a scrapyard with the subtitle: That is where
263 Post contains images WILCO737 : Nope, Airbus still sucks But I wont make an A vs B thingy out of it! This could've happened to a Boeing as well! And it nearly did to me as I stated
264 Fiatstilojtd : Yeah, well maybe at the end there will come something positive out of it. When they have collected all the data from this (thank god only) incident t
265 Post contains images WILCO737 : Well, we always train crosswind landings (well I do) because they can be tricky and you dont do them too often! But I guess we will get an intern rep
266 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : You (and maybe SandroZRH in the future ) are from/in a different generation when it comes to CRM in the Cockpit. When I read some comments from NCB, I
267 Post contains images WILCO737 : Yupp, thats true! CRM is a big thingy today! And its important for sure! Its good to know that I can yell go around anytime and there will no discuss
268 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : This thread title definitely has "Bild"-Level
269 Lexer : There's a new video up on CNN which has an interview with a passenger. In talking to the passengers, the pilot seemed to blame ATC for assigning the w
270 Post contains images WILCO737 : I'd like to see that interview... And hear what the passengers has to say! But think about that: theres always two sides of the story! WILCO737 (MD11
271 Post contains images Sketty222 : Thats what I thought as well. Tell me about , I was on a flight LHR-NCL on Friday 29th and we had such a turbulent flight due to the wind. Our approa
272 Post contains links and images WILCO737 : http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...y.plane/index.html?iref=newssearch This seems to be the interview... Typical comments from a "non aviator"....
273 PanHAM : When you listen carefully what ATC says in interviews, they always draw the attention to the fact that they "offered" both the 23 and the 33 to the pi
274 Post contains images NAV20 : I think we can rule that out, Starlionblue. This was a Lufthansa crate, they'd definitely have said "Scheise!" if they said anything at all. Very goo
275 Post contains images WILCO737 : Yeah there will be an investigation and the ATC logs and the CVR etc will be checked and then there will be a final report on whats happened.... Even
276 EarlyNFF : So ,where is the AB 737 clip, still want to see!
277 Post contains images ZakHH : I don't think he would jeopardize his career with such a statement, even when not being fully correct. The statement the passenger is referring to in
278 EarlyNFF : I said that before, in other words.
279 Fiatstilojtd : Nah, this is LH not Ryanair where a Pilot who was (or maybe still is I dunno) with FR for 10 years and already was a captain got "degraded" to FO bec
280 EarlyNFF : No. Slideslip is not recommended on the entire approach. I bet the crew didn´t even realize they struck the runway during the event, only afterwards
281 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : So one of the mods more or less agreed with us....
282 Post contains images WILCO737 : good! Sounds better now WILCO737 (MD11F)
283 Post contains links and images Fiatstilojtd : Oh no.... http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermisc...leicht-den-sturm-jet-gelandet.html According to BILD: Beautiful but unskillful/inexperienced young fe
284 Post contains links AVLNative : Of course, Der Spiegel cannot be outdone by BILD: 24-Jährige steuerte Airbus beim Landeanflug "Warum Pilot Oliver A. seiner unerfahrenen Kollegin Max
285 Fiatstilojtd : Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if Lufthansa or the Federal Authority would only have the slightest "thought" that the FO or the Cpt. wou
286 Kaitak : The difference between LH and CX surprises me; both are "top of the line" airlines, technically, but if this happened to a CX aircraft, the crew would
287 Post contains images WILCO737 : Yes, and we all try to keep it that way! but sometimes you cannot do much about it! ANd I guess if the Captain would've been PF he would've got hitte
288 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : This Pic is from Lars Tretau, the student who made most of the pics which are circulating around the web. It shows the Airbus seconds before touchdow
289 Post contains images WILCO737 : 1st picture everything was fine so far! But then it got hit by the gust and the A320 hasnt touched down yet, so the gust will let you drift away and
290 Fiatstilojtd : Isn't exactly that one of the reasons why LH trains their pilots not to land the Airbus/Boeing too soft so that the system realises that the aircraft
291 Post contains images WILCO737 : I guess not only LH trains that to pilots! During wet, contaminated runway and crosswinds, its better to reach a postive touchdown, so that the spoil
292 Jorge1812 : Meaning unexperienced FO....how do they know?!?!?!?!? georg
293 Post contains images WILCO737 : Typical speculation of the media! At LH you can start flying age 21, so maybe she is flying for 3 years already which means nearly 3000 hours on a je
294 Fiatstilojtd : Media-sensationalism at its best....and the Newspapers/TV-Channels here in Ösiland are nothing better.[Edited 2008-03-04 10:21:08]
295 Post contains images WILCO737 : AND its always the pilots error!!!! WILCO737 (MD11F)
296 Fiatstilojtd : If we would not have the real big Drama about Mr. Lanzinger after his Ski-Crash that LH Incident would be Top-News all over here I bet.
297 Giosetti : BFU?[Edited 2008-03-04 10:36:22]
298 Post contains links and images WILCO737 : 2nd part open now: LH A320 Crosswind Landing Incident Part 2 (by WILCO737 Mar 4 2008 in Civil Aviation) WILCO737 (MD11F)
299 Post contains images Giosetti : Hoho! Fiat Stilo, no fakes please! If you start photoshopping hair colours what else will you do with that maid? And I use gimp, not photoshop! Now t
300 EarlyNFF : I had this suspicion right from beginning oh, hear the CHAT operator! This is real BS. Of course Cpt. and FO should have the same level of knowledge.
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