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Confirmed: IB Increasing Flights To BOS And IAD  
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

In February, we had one of our many frequent discussions about Iberia's route to BOS and IAD. Many people expressed the view that both routes were performing poorly, and IB would probably scrap its flights to both cities.

Today, Datamonitor reports that IB announced that it will operate daily flights to BOS, and five weekly flights to IAD, starting in June. Although IB has not yet posted a formal announcement in its website press releases, its online timetable confirms that it is increasing flights to both BOS and IAD. Additionally, it seems that IB won't be operating a triangular MAD-BOS-IAD-MAD route this summer.

I am glad that IB has confidence in its initial decision to launch flights to BOS and IAD, and it plans to maintain both routes. BOS must be performing especially well since IB will fly there daily. IB still faces challenges because the American economy seems to entering a recession, and its two newest routes to the United States are vulnerable.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6576 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

IB actually announced this yesterday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080304/cltu084.html?.v=96


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

It really doesn't say much about how the flights are performing, other than the fact that during the summer t is extremely easy to fill a flight from Dulles or Logan to anywhere in Europe because demand is extremely high. The additional frequencies are only operating during peak summer, not all of summer.

Operating more flights peak summer - when its nearly impossible not to make a profit flying Boston/DC-Europe - will help pump in more revenue from the routes to make up for how poorly they are doing between October and April.

This could have helped attract business travelers on the Boston route, if it were not that the increase is only for a very short period during peak summer travel. Yields are well below were they need to be to Boston, but with daily flights, IB could improve them.

Dulles, on the other hand, is a disaster.

I'm not surprised that they are trying to make these routes work - so far they aren't working very well. I think Boston will work in the long-run, but I don't think Dulles will, especially, for example, if UA decides to enter the market.

What the PR doesn't really mention is how short a period the increases are for.

Boston:
30 March-30 May: 4x weekly
31 May-14 June: 5x weekly
15 June-7 August: daily
8 August-30 September: 6x weekly
1 October-25 October: 5x weekly
25 October- : 4x weekly

Washington:
1 April-4 May: 3x weekly
5 May - 14 June: 4x weekly
15 June - 30 September: 5x weekly
1 October - 25 October: 4x weekly
25 October- : 3x weekly



a.
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4393 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
if UA decides to enter the market.

Why would UA enter the market? UA tried IAD-MAD before. Why would it want to compete with IB when IAD-MAD cannot support two carriers? I don't see the purpose in entering the market with the intent to drive IB out, especially if UA doubts that it could profitably operate the route over a long period of time. It might make more sense for UA and its Star Alliance partner, TAP, to codeshare 3 weekly flights between their respective hubs at IAD and LIS.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
The additional frequencies are only operating during peak summer, not all of summer.

IB will fly IAD-MAD five times a week right up to September 30, which is the start of shoulder season. True, IB will not increase its schedule to IAD until June 15, rather than late May.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
I think Boston will work in the long-run

Why? I am aware that BOS performs better than IAD, but I don't understand why.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Why would it want to compete with IB when IAD-MAD cannot support two carriers?

Because the market can't support two carriers and United would handidly drive Iberia out of the market with no problems. They could also do far better than Iberia is doing (though it would be hard to do worse) by offering great connections and feeding into Star Alliance member's Spannair hub at Madrid. Plus, they eliminate competition in Dulles-Europe which, if you are UA, is a good thing. Madrid is a Star Alliance hub, and it currently has no trans-Atlantic service on Star (although Air Canada starts YYZ-MAD in May).

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Why? I am aware that BOS performs better than IAD, but I don't understand why.

Strong oneWorld presence in the Boston area, some connecting feed from AA, lots of interlining passengers (BOS is a pretty big US-Europe interlining connecting hub), and a shorter stage length which means the flight can perform better financially at similar fares. They get a strong amount of passengers connecting from other flights, and not just AA. Some days during the summer the flight was as high as 45% connecting passengers - mostly from the West Coast and intra-New England. The Dulles flight sees virtually no feed, though it's the first place where oversold MIA passengers are sent.

[Edited 2008-03-05 14:47:09]


a.
User currently offlineBAGoldEx From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4347 times:



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 3):
Why? I am aware that BOS performs better than IAD, but I don't understand why.

According to the 2005 numbers I saw a while back on here, Boston is a bigger market to Europe with the overall marketshares being something like 5.5% and 4.8%.


User currently offlineBAGoldEx From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

Here are those numbers, IAD is 3.8%, not 4.8% as I stated.

Top U.S.-Europe O&D's:
1. JFK 17.9% share $664 avg fare
2. EWR 8.3% $642
3. LAX 6.9% $748
4. ORD 5.7% $693
5. BOS 5.5% $638
6. SFO 5.4% $760
7. MIA 4.4% $612
8. IAD 3.8% $782
9. MCO 3.8% $523
10. LAS 2.4% $604
11. ATL 2.2% $740
12. IAH 2.1% $1213
13. PHL 1.8% $765
14. SEA 1.7% $857
15. DTW 1.5% $812
16. DFW 1.5% $911


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4299 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Because the market can't support two carriers and United would handidly drive Iberia out of the market with no problems. They could also do far better than Iberia is doing (though it would be hard to do worse) by offering great connections and feeding into Star Alliance member's Spannair hub at Madrid

Yet, UA and JK both flew IAD-MAD in the recent past, and both scuttled the route. Why would they have better sucess this time? Perhaps, they were not alliance partners when they operated this route, but neither UA nor JK rushed to relaunch IAD-MAD once they both joined Star Alliance.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Madrid is a Star Alliance hub

But it is a bigger hub for One World.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
offering great connections and feeding into Star Alliance member's Spannair hub at Madrid.

Is Spanair's European network that extensive? I thought IB had a much larger European network than JK. Perhaps, the advantage of UA/JK relaunching this route is UA's hub at IAD, not JK's hub at MAD. UA could offer onward connections to other destinations in the United States from IAD, whereas IB cannot. A strong Euro may mean more Europeans travelling to the United States this summer, rather than Americans travelling to Europe.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4299 times:



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 6):
Here are those numbers, IAD is 3.8%, not 4.8% as I stated.

Top U.S.-Europe O&D's:

Just to note, Miami and Washington's numbers are actually higher for the total market, as these are airport-only. While Fort Lauderdale and Baltimore see very limited trans-Atlantic service, they see significant number of European travelers making connections. While I don't have the data in front of me, I believe FLL's share is 1.0% and BWI's is 0.8%.

Orlando's numbers also don't include Sanford, but I don't think that charter passengers are counted.



a.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24812 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

IAD can be a difficult nut to crack with international services without some supporting feed from the #1 player United.

Another problem is that while D.C. area generates a good deal of government and business traffic - Spain is not a market such traffic really demands. Spain is much more a leisure destination, while it also does not help that IB lacks a very dense European network either as carriers like BA, KL, AF do and can count the added help of selling beyond seats.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4275 times:

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 7):
Why would they have better sucess this time?

Look at how much more successful UA has been at Rome and Zurich the second time around.

United pulled out, IIRC, in the mid-1990s, more than a decade ago. While Spannair pulled out right after 9/11, it was partly because they ended their entire long-haul operation.

Third time is, after all, a charm.

I think UA will follow closely how Iberia does. Obviously, their results so far aren't going to lead UA to do much.

[Edited 2008-03-05 15:10:04]


a.
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8195 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4262 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Because the market can't support two carriers and United would handidly drive Iberia out of the market with no problems.

I also think that a 767 is a better aircraft for this route than an A340. As to why UA couldn't make the route work while US doesn't seem to have a problem with PHL-MAD, I can't answer that. Maybe neither UA nor IB can make the route work and we should expect IB to eventually drop it. Time will tell.


User currently offlineBAGoldEx From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4255 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Just to note, Miami and Washington's numbers are actually higher for the total market, as these are airport-only. While Fort Lauderdale and Baltimore see very limited trans-Atlantic service, they see significant number of European travelers making connections. While I don't have the data in front of me, I believe FLL's share is 1.0% and BWI's is 0.8%.

Orlando's numbers also don't include Sanford, but I don't think that charter passengers are counted.

So? Every other airport on that list bleeds some traffic to secondary airports. It's not just MIA and IAD.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 12):

So? Every other airport on that list bleeds some traffic to secondary airports. It's not just MIA and IAD.

Of course it happens everywhere, though only at MIA, MCO, and IAD is the bleed quite significant where it makes a big difference. The bleeding is most significant in Orlando to charter traffic via Sanford.

JFK doesn't bleed much European traffic to LGA; LAX doesn't bleed much to SNA; and you surely aren't seeing BOS traffic bleed to MHT and PVD passengers so that they can back-track; or DFW to DAL where the Wright ammendment limited ticketed travel; or IAH to HOU where there is very limited domestic service on the major U.S. airlines; or OAK to SFO.

Miami, Orlando, and Washington see significant bleeding of traffic.

[Edited 2008-03-05 15:18:36]


a.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24812 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

I believe a good example of how a non United aligned carrier fares at IAD is the experience of Alitalia.

The airline has been in/out of the market with different equipment over the years, dropped it last in 2006, with rumors it would be back for summer '07 but then UA launched Rome service (which has done very well) and AZ decided to sit it out.

I'm certain that UA which has continued to explore additional Europe markets would have a better success with Madrid then IB as it would be flying from its principal Europe hub to the base of a fellow Star partner. Basically have feed and sales support on both ends, where IB really only has one.

Another carrier non UA allinged example might be Aeroflot which also has been in and out of IAD, however I'm not too convinced all its moves over the years were strictly due to economic reasons, but instead more flag waving exercises.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6576 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4156 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
I believe a good example of how a non United aligned carrier fares at IAD is the experience of Alitalia.

Maybe, although AF has had a lot of success at IAD....going up to as many as 3 flights a day during the summer. Granted, AF benefits from having a strong hub at CDG.

KE seems to hold their own at IAD as well despite being unaffiliated.


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4052 times:



Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 12):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Just to note, Miami and Washington's numbers are actually higher for the total market, as these are airport-only. While Fort Lauderdale and Baltimore see very limited trans-Atlantic service, they see significant number of European travelers making connections. While I don't have the data in front of me, I believe FLL's share is 1.0% and BWI's is 0.8%.

Orlando's numbers also don't include Sanford, but I don't think that charter passengers are counted.

So? Every other airport on that list bleeds some traffic to secondary airports. It's not just MIA and IAD.

IAD bleeds more traffic than MIA does as BWI offers more scheduled European flights than FLL.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
JFK doesn't bleed much European traffic to LGA; LAX doesn't bleed much to SNA; and you surely aren't seeing BOS traffic bleed to MHT and PVD passengers so that they can back-track; or DFW to DAL where the Wright ammendment limited ticketed travel; or IAH to HOU where there is very limited domestic service on the major U.S. airlines; or OAK to SFO.

While its not too big, you'd be surprised how many people out of MHT and PVD will make the short hop down to JFK and EWR for Europe.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4014 times:



Quoting B752OS (Reply 16):

IAD bleeds more traffic than MIA does as BWI offers more scheduled European flights than FLL.

Nope. FLL has more daily passengers to Europe than BWI does, even though BWI has more service (indeed, FLL currently has none, although Zoom starts in May and Finnair in November).

Quoting B752OS (Reply 16):
you'd be surprised how many people out of MHT and PVD will make the short hop down to JFK and EWR for Europe.

I wouldn't be surprised because the numbers are still insignificant.



a.
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

No surprises. As I've been saying in the past weeks, both BOS and IAD are good performers in the high season (for sure they are not the more profitable, but they are not as bad a to justify the routes being cancelled). Regarding the triangular route, it only worked in February, and due to aircraft shortages. It seems you were sceptical about this, but trust me... even the Canaries got restrictions because IB is short of A340s.

Basically, I'd say there is no change: Iberia needs more capacity in July-August than in November, and that's why the adapt the schedules to the demand. I'm sure that in the future, if they get A330, they will send them to BOS / IAD in the fall and winter season. For sure the A340 is too big for them in the winter, but not in the summer.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
while it also does not help that IB lacks a very dense European network either as carriers like BA, KL, AF do

Well... AF, BA, KL, etc. are huge players in Europe. Despite of this, I wouldn't say Iberia's network in Europe is small. They have more than 100 short haul aicrafts flying exclusively MAD-Europe, plus the flights of Air Nostrum. Iberia is serving even small cities: Clermont-Ferrand, Montpelier, Nantes, Strasbourg ... (France); Catalania, Olbia, ... (Italy); etc. I don't think IB is less convenient than AF/KL/BA, because their destinations are quite impressive.

They lack a large Eastern Europe network, but they are builing it: Moscow, St Petersburg, Prague, Dubrovnik, Varsaw, Kracow, etc. I guess they will start Sofia soon, and so on.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3920 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Madrid is a Star Alliance hub

technically this is true - the reality is that JK does not really offer a huge range of connecting opportunities at MAD , and , in any case with SK desperate to flog them off and IB looking like the only serious bidder the question is why would UA use any of its scarce international capacity to operate a flight to somewhere where the ( limited) feed could dry up completely any day



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User currently offlinePbb152 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 613 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Any chance IB will start IAH or DFW (more likely due to oneworld) in the near future?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32601 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3804 times:



Quoting Pbb152 (Reply 20):
Any chance IB will start IAH or DFW (more likely due to oneworld) in the near future?

IAH is pretty much as close to 0% as you can get. It's never going to happen.

DFW chances, IMO, are low. Dallas will be connected to Madrid in due time, but probably on AA metal. However, given AA's lack of long-haul equipment, never say never when it comes to IB and DFW. Though with IAH, it's easy to say: "Never."



a.
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3747 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Quoting B752OS (Reply 16):
you'd be surprised how many people out of MHT and PVD will make the short hop down to JFK and EWR for Europe.


I wouldn't be surprised because the numbers are still insignificant.

The numbers are still there. I know people who work for 2 large corporations in Rhode Island that send on average about 100 people to Europe a month and they fly out of PVD and connect through JFK or EWR. Thanks to BDL now having TATL service, BOS bleeds pax to BDL now too.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Nope. FLL has more daily passengers to Europe than BWI does, even though BWI has more service (indeed, FLL currently has none, although Zoom starts in May and Finnair in November).

What percentage of the market does FLL have?


User currently offlineMk777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3721 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
if UA decides to enter the market.

Does UA have a spare 763ER to do the IAD-MAD runs, if they do decide to fly there? I am not so sure.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):
I'm sure that in the future, if they get A330, they will send them to BOS / IAD in the fall and winter season.

I think UA will have to drop a route before it launches the MAD flight, till then IB will perform quite alright in the summer, winter, however, will be a challenge. I agree that IB would benefit to send A330's than A340's during the winter.



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User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3609 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
DFW chances, IMO, are low. Dallas will be connected to Madrid in due time, but probably on AA metal. However, given AA's lack of long-haul equipment, never say never when it comes to IB and DFW.

Agreed. DFW, LAX, and SFO would probably be the next cities IB goes to. However if they can't make BOS work then they can't make any of these cities work. IAD is going to be a tough market to crack. While the TATL market out of IAD is strong, there are few connections on the other side. When I flew them last summer the TVs were listing all the connections on AA out of BOS. They were to JFK (surprising), STL, DFW, and LAX. Out of IAD I would imagine the connections would be to LAX, STL, and DFW as well. Hopefully they will do fine in BOS, as I (and I'm sure many others) have wished for a MAD flight for years.



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25 IAD380 : Wouldn't an aviation market be measured by both O&D traffic and connecting traffic? If you combined both factor, which is a bigger market, Washington
26 B752OS : Trans Atlantic No, because when you talk about a market, you are talking about a single market. For example, when people say the NYC market is huge f
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