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Why Not Open Skies Between US And Most Places?  
User currently offlineCODCAIAH From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 177 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3290 times:

DL, B6, NK, CO Granted Colombia (by Delta4eva Mar 5 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Why do so many countries not have open skies agreements with the United States? In reading the above post about various airlines being granted routes between the US and Colombia, it made me wonder what's in it for either country to have restrictions on the number of flights between the two places.

I suppose it makes more sense to me that China, for instance, would not pursue open skies in order to protect their own airlines' profits, etc. (Did I just answer my own question?  Smile )


CO/IAH-loyalist happily driven into the arms of WN/HOU
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMarSciGuy From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3280 times:



Quoting CODCAIAH (Thread starter):
(Did I just answer my own question? Smile )

I would suggest you did  Wink.



"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Yes, you answered your own question. Japan is the same. The US tends to negotiate open skies agreements at least in point to point international travel, with beyond fifths, liberal or unlimited codesharing, etc. But if you define open skies as domestic access, is does not.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11518 posts, RR: 61
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Many countries are still afraid of completely opening their markets to competition from U.S. carriers, which - for all the complaining and moaning - are immensely good at seeking out and cultivating new markets, when given the opportunity. U.S. airlines have yield management and capacity planning tools that are several orders of magnitude more sophisticated that what is available to airlines in most of the developing world, for example, so many of those countries choose to protect their own airlines from more competition from larger, richer and more advanced U.S. carriers.

It is important to remember, though, that even though your question is framed in the context of, why do so many countries not have liberalized aviation treaties with the U.S., it is perhaps more appropriate to say, why do so many countries have liberalized aviation treaties with the U.S., compared with other nations? The U.S. has more liberalized aviation agreements than probably any other country on earth - as the U.S. has made "Open Skies" a major cornerstone of its international civil aviation policy going back nearly two decades.

As for domestic access - it is true: the U.S. has never opened up its domestic markets to foreign airlines, and likely won't do so anytime in the near future. The U.S. has also, as far as I know, never sought such rights from other countries, at least not on a permanent basis. The U.S. position on Open Skies has always been that both sides should have completely unlimited access to each others' markets, from their respective home markets, plus unlimited fifth freedom "beyond" rights behind the other parties' gateways. This has been the Open Skies formula that the U.S. has extensively pursued around the world, with nearly 100 countries thus far.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

And the United States does have open skies with a some countries that no one wants to fly to. Gabon comes to mind.

A list of countries with Open Skies treaties with the US can be found here.
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-40%20Role_Files/usagreements.htm


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3145 times:



Quoting CODCAIAH (Thread starter):
I suppose it makes more sense to me that China, for instance, would not pursue open skies in order to protect their own airlines' profits, etc. (Did I just answer my own question?  smile  )

You hit the nail right on the head! In the case of China they have three state owned air carriers that they admit aren't up to the same standard as their U.S. counterparts. And with an economy growing by leaps and bounds, China flights directly to the U.S. are in demand, so hence the big contests between carriers to secure route authorities that the USDOT is allotted. Also in how the USDOT allots these route authorities is effected by the cities the big three Chinese carriers serve, being mostly to LAX and JFK, so hence the reason most U.S. carriers have avoided proposing service from one of the two big world gateways.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22848 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3068 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
U.S. airlines have yield management and capacity planning tools that are several orders of magnitude more sophisticated that what is available to airlines in most of the developing world, for example, so many of those countries choose to protect their own airlines from more competition from larger, richer and more advanced U.S. carriers.

It's interesting, too, that when you look to developing countries with "first world" air carriers, you tend to find fairly liberal air travel treaties. Chile (LA, and arguably UC when they existed) comes to mind; there is robust competition between several American carriers and LA from SCL to the States, and though the treaty isn't open-skies, if you look to attitudes of both the carrier and the government in question, I would argue that South Africa is another.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3007 times:



Quoting CODCAIAH (Thread starter):
Why do so many countries not have open skies agreements with the United States?

Another factor is that some countries, including Australia, up until our recent change of government do not like industry by industry agreements, they perfer "whole economy" agreements.

On a whole economy basis the USA is a fairly protectionest country. During negotiations a few years ago over the USA/Australia free trade agreement the US refused point blank to include the whole agricultural sector. Our stupid government agreed to this!

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2997 times:



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 7):
Another factor is that some countries, including Australia, up until our recent change of government do not like industry by industry agreements, they perfer "whole economy" agreements.

On a whole economy basis the USA is a fairly protectionest country. During negotiations a few years ago over the USA/Australia free trade agreement the US refused point blank to include the whole agricultural sector. Our stupid government agreed to this!

Gemuser

Air services agreements are almost always been negotiated separately from other trade negotiations. The issues arising from transport of people are unique. Exactly how many air services agreements have been negotiated by Australia with other countries as part of a larger trade agreement?

Anyway, people who claim that the US is "fairly protectionist" are making unsupportable claims.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2967 times:



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):
Exactly how many air services agreements have been negotiated by Australia with other countries as part of a larger trade agreement?

Off the top of my head? Three.
Australia/New Zealand, Australia/Singapore and Australia/USA.

The current OZ/USA Open Skies was basically agree to in the 06(?) Australia-USA Free Trade Agreement, details left to be work out after that agreement was in force. They were in Feb 08.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):
Anyway, people who claim that the US is "fairly protectionist" are making unsupportable claims.

Oh come on! Its getting off topic for this forum but the USA is very, very protectionist in the farm sector! Arguably more so than the EU, but still behind Japan. Why do you think the "Cains Group" of agricultral exporting countries was formed? If you want to take it further shift it to Non-Av.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
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