Commavia From United States, joined Apr 2005, 6792 posts, RR: 59 Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18149 times:
Well, damn, if true, then wow - this is a shocking accusation against Southwest.
However, I must say - at least at this point, I have to take this entire thing with a grain of salt. Oberstar is getting on his soapbox, and CNN is reporting (we know how great journalists are when it comes to airline news), and everyone is flipping out.
But I sincerely hope - and suspect - that this isn't quite what it appears.
Southwest is a superb and exceptionally well-run airline, and one of the safest - at least statistically - in the world.
PilotNTrng From United States, joined Dec 2003, 890 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18114 times:
Quoting from the text...........In 1994, a U.S. Air Boeing 737 crashed in Pittsburgh killing 132. Three years earlier, a United Airlines Boeing 737 crashed in Colorado Springs, killing 25. Investigators blamed both crashes on problems in the planes' rudder control system, leading the FAA to demand regular checks of the 737's rudder system.
Documents provided to CNN show 70 Southwest jets were allowed to fly past the deadline for the mandatory rudder inspections.
Wasn't that supposed to be done years ago? I know the AD came out soon after that. I can't remember, but If I recall, wasn't the 737 grounded until that bolt in the rudder was inspected?
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 55 Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18111 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 1): Southwest is a superb and exceptionally well-run airline, and one of the safest - at least statistically - in the world.
Yeah, that's why it's really surprising IF true. I sort of always thought of WN as a no nonsense, "dot all the T's and cross all the I's" airline. I guess we'll have to see how this pans out.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
PilotNTrng From United States, joined Dec 2003, 890 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 18034 times:
And also, we have to consider the source. The media is kind of in a frenzy right now about the airlines, especially after the coverage of that near disaster in Europe with the Airbus nipping the wing on the runway. These morons will calm down soon enough ha ha.
oh boy, here we go. i figure i would have gotten a few laughs out of that, but I guess not. if you were in the US and followed our media coverage you would get that. well I guess CNN is considered international, so you know ( if you have watched them) how liberal they are and like to get a rise out of people.
SNATH From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2785 posts, RR: 37 Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17794 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 8): oh boy, here we go. i figure i would have gotten a few laughs out of that, but I guess not. if you were in the US and followed our media coverage you would get that. well I guess CNN is considered international, so you know ( if you have watched them) how liberal they are and like to get a rise out of people.
I agree with PH and I feel you're too quick to dismiss this. To me, this doesn't sound like media nosense (it's not like "a 737 hit turbulance and a lady in the bathroom ended up with a bump on her forehead" therefore "all planes are unsafe"). And, if true, I'll be personally very surprised. Southwest have done a very good job so far in having the image of a very safety-minded airline. But, if this story is true, it will make a huge dent in their reputation. And I wonder whether it might also affect the image of LCCs in general (which, in this case, might be due to media generalization nonense: "Southwest were not totally safe" therefore "all LCCs are not safe").
Tony
[Edited 2008-03-06 09:23:55]
"4 engines for too long!", Randy Baseler on Airbus
Sorry guys for going off on a tangent here, but I was simply stating the medias coverage usually is blown out of proportion. Also with the first post I made about the rudder inspections. That was supposed to be done years ago around 1994. I am pretty sure that the B737 was grounded until those inspections were completed. So there for, for CNN to throw that in , is just sparking sensationalism.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 55 Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17648 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 12): but I was simply stating the medias coverage usually is blown out of proportion.
Many times, yes. But this report seems to have some legs under it. All we can do is wait and see....and hope, for WN's sake, that this report is, as you say, blown out of proportion.
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
STLGph From United States, joined Oct 2004, 8042 posts, RR: 32 Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17607 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 12): So there for, for CNN to throw that in , is just sparking sensationalism.
Um....
Calling it "one of the worst safety violations" he has ever seen, Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minnesota, is expected to call a hearing as soon as possible to ask why the airline put its passengers in danger.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
PlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 3157 posts, RR: 71 Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17581 times:
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 8): if you were in the US and followed our media coverage you would get that. well I guess CNN is considered international, so you know ( if you have watched them) how liberal they are and like to get a rise out of people.
First of all I'm not clueless about American media. Secondly, you seemed to generalize about media coverage apart from CNN alone.
It's a fact that many scandals have been disclosed by journalists - so I would be careful with quick negative judgements. Just like I'd be careful with early praise for any kind of story.
I guess it will soon be clear whether the issue is serious or not.
2H4 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 8113 posts, RR: 65 Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17585 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting PilotNTrng (Reply 12): So there for, for CNN to throw that in , is just sparking sensationalism.
I'll be the first to admit that the accusations sound pretty serious, but at the same time, I agree that CNN has been making a habit of sensationalizing news lately. For the past few months, it seems that they're not happy unless a headline involving the death of a child or baby is posted on the front page. They seem to be transitioning from a neutral presentation of newsworthy items to a tabloid magazine theme.
I'm not saying the accusations against WN are inaccurate, but as is usually the case with aviation-related news coverage, there is probably much more to the story than we've seen thus far.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5430 posts, RR: 55 Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17488 times:
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17207 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 21): If i'm not mistaken, weren't most of the inspections done in the evenings after each aircraft completed its service for the day?
There was more than one AD on the rudder issue (so I can't recall all the details of each), but inspections would have been done as you mention. If all 737s were grounded pending an inspection, that would have made the news since SWA would have been stuck on the ground (all 737s), as well as other airlines having to have grounded sizeable (but not total) parts of their overall fleets, which would have also made the news, and neither did, since there was no fleetwide grounding.
Most ADs don't require an immediate grounding (like the DC-10 engine pylon issue post-AA191) and involve inspections and corrective actions within so many hours and/or cycles.
KELPkid From United States, joined Nov 2005, 4172 posts, RR: 8 Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17200 times:
Quoting STLGph (Reply 15): Calling it "one of the worst safety violations" he has ever seen, Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minnesota, is expected to call a hearing as soon as possible to ask why the airline put its passengers in danger.
Grandstanding?
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
26 PilotNTrng: Thanks for the additional information. the AD that was put out, if I am not mistaken, required the immediate inspection of that bolt in the rudder, s
27 Fsnuffer: I don't think the missed inspections were the initial ones required after the AD was posted. They are probably the new recurring checks mandated beca
28 KELPkid: CNN, all the news that'll grab your channel flipping long enough to earn a decent Nielsen rating...
29 OPNLguy: Without going back and reviewing all the ADs that have existed on the issue, I couldn't tell you from memory...
30 Type-Rated: Didn't the rudder problem turn out to be an imbalance in the hydraulic rudder boost system (an imbalance) rather than a bolt problem? The bolt problem
31 Mariner: So - are you saying that the story is not true? Or are you saying that the story is true but that CNN should not have reported it? mariner
32 SWABrian: Official SWA Response. Hello everyone, I wanted to share with you our official response to the news reports. We are aware of all of your concerns and
33 Surfrider1978: He's just mad that WN has snubbed service to the icy state of MN When pigs fly out of me arse Lately...? With the aviation industry, CNN really blows
34 WILCO737: Oh my god, I hope this isnt true! That sounds awful! Is CNN a reliable source or not? Doesnt look like... Same with the Toronto AF 340 overrun! It was
35 Richierich: I must say that I am surprised by these allegations and I won't hold WN to it until the "truth" is better established. There maybe more to this story
36 Ourboeing: You know what, I have always thought about it in the back of my mind. I have always wondered as to how SWA does maintenance on their fleet while they
37 Surfrider1978: Could not have been explained better. I think it's a minor non news worthy occurance that probably happen with alot of carriers, but was leaked as a
38 WILCO737: Yeah, lets just wait and see how true this story actually is! We all know that the media likes to sound more dramatic than it sometimes is... Never f
39 DALMD88: I don't know much about the rudder inspections, but I have done a bunch of the fuselage skin crack inspections. The inspection itself can be done on a
40 2H4: They're not always in "rushing mode". Things slow down at night. 2H4
41 Highflier92660: Sounds like somebody flubbed the paperwork. http://www.airlinesafety.com/faq/B-737Rudder.htm
42 Deltaflyertoo: Me thinks its slow news day or something. ONLY CNN is running with this and WN's past safety record and awards speak more than enough for the company.
43 TwinOtter: But they didn't just throw it in -- according to the article, those are the inspections the FAA guys are talking about and the allegation is that the
44 CF188A: I always had the impression Boeing 737s are like elevators .... you see their max capacity (in this case # of hours per mandatory check). , as a SAFE
45 CF188A: we also can NOT forget when the "airplane professional" came on the air and stated Air France has two of 5 models of the 340 series ... the ones with
46 Ward86IND: Sorry, I don't see how anyone can be laughing this off as a non-issue. They missed an AD. That's automatically a big deal. An FAA inspector found a cr
47 WILCO737: I love the media! I hope I will never find myself in the media... WILCO737 (MD11F)
48 Jsnww81: Amen to that. There was a time years ago when CNN was a credible presence in the world news arena. In the last two years the shift to tabloid journal
49 JumboBumbo: This appears to have legs. The documents submitted to Congress, quoting the article "were prepared by two FAA safety inspectors who have requested whi
50 TVNWZ: Love the media bashing. But, this is known and is only delivered by the media. From the report: "The planes were "not airworthy," according to congres
51 Mariner: But the story was not broken by CNN. It first appeared in the Wall Street Journal. The WSJ article is subscription only, but there is this reference
52 Ouboy79: Imagine that. Automatically siding with the "official" statement from the airline. Translation: We didn't see it as a big deal, FAA is apparently dis
53 Commavia: This is too funny - watch the video. I love how that anchor throws it over to a member of CNN's "Special Investigations Unit." Now these news-readers
54 Jerald01: Anyone catch the significance of who the Congressman is in the CNN article? I'll bet he flies a lot into and out of MSP - home of Northwest. Last I he
56 KELPkid: Maybe that CNN sensationalized the story to drive up their viewing ratings? Nah, no American news channel would ever to that... I am not denying that
57 PlaneHunter: Just a remark: Generalizing about "the media" is not any better than tabloid papers generalizing about "pilots" or "aircraft". PH
58 Mariner: Ah, the old "shoot the messenger" theory, alive and well on a.net. Once again, CNN did not break the story, the Wall Street Journal did. Then how can
59 TwinOtter: To summarize: 1) FAA inspectors reported to the United States congress that Southwest flew airplanes violation of mandatory safety checks. 2) The head
60 Deltaflyertoo: This thread should be locked and tossed...I just watched the story on CNN, there is absolutely no real evidence or basis for such a news story.
61 KarlB737: If you don't like the CNN report here is one out of Dallas: Courtesy: WFAA-TV - Dallas Southwest Facing Millions In Fines - Video Included http://www.
62 GRIVely: Not making an editorial statement on the accuracy or lack thereof of this article but just so all of our non-American members understand, Mr. Obersta
63 SRT75: Violating ADs is a big deal, period. Luckily, there was no incident as a result. According to WN, they are on top of the situation. It's a very newsw
64 KELPkid: I didn't attempt to, I was just following along with 2H4's assessment of the situation: I apologize if this has offended you in any way, but I tend t
65 TVNWZ: You are right. We should leave all that to ANet. Pretty much nailed it!
66 JumboBumbo: So, just to clarify, you believe the FAA safety inspectors that reported to Congress are lying? What exactly is the "real" evidence which would convi
67 SPREE34: Not likely. By Noon tomorrow 8 out of 10 people who heard this will have forgotten. The 9th will have forgotten which airline it was. The 10th will r
68 2H4: I simply contend that, given their history of (in)accuracy and recent trends toward tabloid-like sensationalism, it's prudent to take their reports w
69 Justloveplanes: This might shed some light, maybe dent Southwest a little before they get a foothold in NW's home turf? Not much else makes sense, this is really a r
70 ArcrftLvr: Just to clarify, I believe it was a jackscrew issue not a bolt problem. One in the same?? They never do maintenance at the gate, unless it is absolut
71 Surfrider1978: Sort of like the B6 incident with the landing gear emergency and diversion to LAX, where the CNN SVU (the lame investigative team they have)investigat
72 Surfrider1978: Maybe we should. We all seem to know more about commercial aviation since most of us use it as a carrer or hobby, whereas the people reporting or new
73 KELPkid: Hey, that's what the Civ/Av forums in a.net are for Not %!*(!)%$ CNN Headline News!!!
74 Pygmalion: some things to consider.... Saying something is not airworthy does not mean it is unsafe. Being airworthy means you are in full compliance to all the
75 Zone1: Well there is enough evidence for the FAA to fine Southwest at least $3m. http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/news...st.ap/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote I
76 APFPilot1985: Thats the truth, I flew in an Unairworthy airplane this morning, it was perfectly legal and safe(mostly) it was a mx test flight. However it sounds l
77 Richierich: Wow - that's quite a comment to make. If an aircraft has been deemed unairworthy, it should not be flown. Period. Regardless of how "safe" it is. I'm
78 EMBQA: the planes flew for 30 months after government inspection deadlines had passed and should have been grounded until the inspections could be completed
79 APFPilot1985: An aircraft can be unairworthy if a placard for no smoking is worn. That is why in any aircraft sales contract there is no mention of the aircraft be
80 PHLBOS: In the article-link you posted, the largest fine the FAA ever imposed on an airline was Eastern roughly 20 years ago.
81 PlaneHunter: Probably yes - IF it has disappeared from the news by noon tomorrow. PH
82 PanHAM: Not only that. He is chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. I don't know for how long he ius a member of the House but it
83 TVNWZ: But, he is in a safe district, is a long time member and will be re-elected easily. I am not sure, but I do not think he has formidable opposition.
84 Skyhawk62507: FAA just announced $10.2 million "civil penalty" against WN -- http://www.aero-news.net/news/commai...0-4df1-8620-859f9f5192c8&Dynamic=1[Edited 2008-0
85 F9Animal: I don't believe it. I have a hard time believing it. How many disasters has WN had, besides the over run in MDW and LAX? Come on now, they are safe as
87 SPREE34: Good idea. The below quoted posting gets an A+. Great post! Everyone read this one again.
88 OPNLguy: ..and, here it is: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1204...555515181.html?mod=dist_smartbrief Nicely said.
89 BN727flyr: Ok, folks, A few points to consider before more of you lose your heads... I was waiting for someone to make this point. Pygmalion gets a gold star. Bo
90 FlyDeltaJets87: "Sure we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a round-trip to Ft. Meyers." ^The first thing that popped into my head
91 OPNLguy: Compare today's "news" with the "news" that was reported back in February... http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8UP3SJ00.htm Notice any dif
92 MAC26000: Shouldnt congress and Oberstar start working on fixing the budget, vote on the terrorism bill and a million other things before they go after sSouthWe
93 Alphascan: As of this point, he is running unopposed. When opposed, he usually garners more than 60% of the vote in his district. He does not have the reputatio
94 PHLBOS: Is he part of the Vast Legacy-Carrier Conspiracy that would do anything to stick it to Southwest?
95 Scottieprecord: I like how Congressmen are thought to have more knowledge about aviation safety than the FAA supervisors who let this slip by... Just saw the CNN repo
96 FlyDeltaJets87: Hey, at least they're looking into something slightly more important than steroids in baseball for once. I don't know. But if this guy is worried abo
97 Eastern747: Having worked in a "control center" and being very close to the operation, I don't ever remember a crew member that would take a flight out if there w
98 Stratosphere: Yeah they all turned a blind eye to nwa during the mechanic strike and even had an FAA inspector reassigned when he started flagging some real proble
99 Gh123: The media (among other organisations/bodies) keeps pressure on airlines (such as South Worst) to ensure that that high standards of maintenance are m
100 Surfrider1978: Give me a break. Its funny these whistle blowers finally decided to come out with findings they had obviously been holding back for sometime. Now all
101 OPNLguy: The problem with the "media as watchdog and protector of the public" theory is that the business realities of the news biz often still prevail, i.e.
102 Gnomon: This is spot on. When I was a newspaper reporter in a prior career, I knew I'd written a perfectly balanced and impartial article when people from bo
103 Burnsie28: One thing that I know southwest doesn't do that just about every other airline does is a walk around each flight. Its only when there is a new crew or
105 APFPilot1985: You were saying the same things after the over run at MDW but the speculation ended up being correct.
106 Runway23: What an irony that VX offers free flights. Just proves biased reporting and any attempt to bash Continental goes as long as you get some money in on t
107 OPNLguy: My statement was never intended to convey the notion that it was applicable 100% of the time... As far as MDW goes, there's no way that they could ha
108 Cyberflyer: Oberstar is a complete A$$. Anyone who follows politics knows that he is anti-business and a big lib. He'll take shot at any business. Simple grandsta
109 APFPilot1985: An aircraft is considered to be unairworthy if there are any deviations from its type certificate, every placard and other small items are part of th
110 LTBEWR: While there may have been a minor risk, let us not forget that 737's are short haul/high cycle aircraft where any cracks could build up more quickly t
111 TUNisia: No kidding. I don't think it's free to air CNN 27/4 across the globe. They have bills and reporters to pay.
112 Lono: Considering the $10.2 million FAA fine.... this is quite the pun
113 Ikramerica: But the point is, rushing to get the story can lead to false stories. It doesn't mean they are wrong EVERY time. Just most of the time...
114 ArcrftLvr: It was BUR not LAX... I believe every other airline follows the same practice as WN.
115 Gnomon: This is true to the extent that a deviation from the type certificate can be a disqualifying condition. But Part 25 contains the exclusive set of req
116 SkyguyB727: My impression of them is quite the opposite. I posted on the thread about F/As making light of safety briefings. When I flew WN a few years ago, the
117 ScrubbsYWG: i'm not sure if anyone else is watching, but on discovery Canada RIGHT NOW, the program 'mayday' which usually talks about 1 single crash, is talking
118 OPNLguy: It also makes one wonder about the accuracy and validity of that conclusion based on a single flight out of 3,000+ daily. It's sort of like watching
119 2H4: If the media's motive is, in fact, maintaining high standards of maintenance (and, presumably, safety), I'd say the number of aviation-related 'scare
120 HZ747300: Which was the point of the article, to ruin the company. It's how average journalists become great ones, by publishing stories that affect stock pric
121 SWABrian: Hi everyone, I just wanted to let you know that we will have some more information for you in the morning. When it posts, I will let everyone know. Br
122 ImperialEagle: This evenings NBC News closed with the story by sensationalizing the "record" $10M fine levied against WN. Certainly not good PR irregardless. WN can
123 Gnomon: That's exactly what the story said. Did you read the story and think 70 airplanes crashed? [I also think it's disingenuous to refer to the problem as
124 Zeke: How does this compare to what Alaskan airlines did and the fines they received ?
125 Gh123: What is that supposed to mean - in this day and age the media is a 'check' and airlines don't want bad publicity (fact) and they're going to do whate
126 SWACLE: In 8 years on the ramp, I have NEVER seen an aircraft depart without the crew doing a full and complete walkaround of the plane, regardless of crew c
127 Mariner: What - exactly - is inaccurate in this present reporting? mariner[Edited 2008-03-06 18:45:11]
128 OPNLguy: Yes, but even these "respected news organizations" can get it wrong in the initial story, and have that inaccuracy repeated far and wide by every med
129 ER757: I think that's a bit sensationalist in itself. Do you really think the reporter or the network thought to themsleves, "let's take down an airline for
130 2H4: WN takes safety very seriously, I assure you. If I had the entire story, and was privy to internal maintenance ops, I could accurately assess the acc
131 Burnsie28: Interesting, because that policy was told to my by a WN employee, not to mention after flying from OAK-LAX the pilots never left the plane. The plane
133 Mariner: But they are not attempting to do so. They are reporting the news as it is known at the time of going to press. They are not giving the rights or wro
134 GentFromAlaska: I'd be interested in knowing what series of the 737 are in question. I suspect the older 300 series aircraft are under the most scrutiny.
135 AgnusBymaster: My two cents: Maintenance standards are slipping in the US airline industry. With sky high fuel prices, cost-cutting across the board has been necessa
136 SWABrian: More from SWA, I promised some additional news for in the morning, but we have been working the late shift tonight and it is ready now. If you all wil
137 APFPilot1985: The actual text of this letter is hard to argue with or sensationalize http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont.../img/03-08/0307southwestletter.pdf What
138 GentFromAlaska: Here the story (after the commercial) from the local NBC affiliate in Nashville. http://www.wsmv.com/video/15519953/index.html Grenades are being toss
139 AirTranTUS: Looks like they only mention the skin cracking and it seems to me like they corrected it adequately and we should not be worrying about it anymore. N
140 APFPilot1985: Just a little bit of PR spin there, how is waiting up to 80 cycles after self reporting non-compliance "promptly" fixing the problem. Also, as much a
141 Silver1SWA: Fair? Is it really fair to word the title of the story that broke on CNN like they did? In my opinion, that is where the sensationalism starts...the
142 APFPilot1985: You're right it really should be Southwest Flew Unairworthy airplanes for Months.
143 Avek00: Low-Fare Airline Cuts Major Corners on Aircraft Safety
144 BlueFlyer: Setting aside for a moment how grave Southwest's lapse may be, I find the FAA's thought process quite interesting... Operating 1,451 flights in knowi
145 B737Mech: If everyone wants to get technical about the airworthiness of an aircraft, if a FAA official walks on the plane and finds an ashtray missing from an a
146 Usair330: WN pilot's do there walkaround on originator's, crew changes and terminators. There's a reason you will not see a FO do a walkaround in between legs.
147 MSYtristar: In regards to the title of this thread, I just call it like I see it. That's why I put the word unsafe in quotes. I saw the article, and it seems fac
148 Flynavy: The "employees" don't pay your salary. Customers do.
149 APFPilot1985: I already said that above, this wasn't a little thing though.
150 Richierich: Perhaps you are the one that needs an "education". I am quite aware of the difference between the words unsafe and unairworthy, although it should al
151 Smeg: This topic has intrigued me as it is something that I have been wondering about for a while. It is all about the publics perception of airlines. There
152 BP1: Clear and simple - you break the rules you pay. Shame on Southwest for putting hundreds of thousands of lives at risk. The FAA has rules for a reason
153 Seafleet: I give some credibility to the story beacuse of the statement from the FAA as for detail well we might need to wait a little longer.I do ask the quest
154 Cjpark: What should be the only concern with this situation is the apparent lack of FAA enforcement of Safety rules. It has all ready been established that th
155 Enilria: I'm sorry, but $10 million is not enough of a penalty, particularly when it will be settled for 1/2 as they typically do. When the cost to do somethin
156 SNATH: First, 20-yo BA planes are not necessarily nice and clean. I know, I've been on a couple... Second, and with all due respect, but I really don't thin
157 Barney Captain: Forgive me if this was already posted: From Southwest.com; Southwest Airlines Responds to FAA Letter of Penalty Carrier is eager to present the facts
158 Socalfive: No it won't. The only huge dent you speak of is in your thought process. ANYTHING that comes from Congress is Grandstanding, plain and simple. This m
159 TVNWZ: It has nothing to do with ratings and votes. It has to do with a $10.2-Million in fines. Yep. $10.2 Million worth.
160 APFPilot1985: That is just 100% false, read the letter from the FAA they reported it before they made the inspections and then continued to fly the airplanes for u
161 Smeg: Firstly, thank you for the welcome! Secondly, I agree with you absolutely! I was certainly not blaming Joe Public, I was trying to illustrate (rather
162 TVNWZ: What would the reaction be here if the government leveled $10.2-Million in fines and launched an investigation against any airline and the media DID N
163 LHRBlueSkies: And are Boeing really going to criticise Southwest? Nope, since they are a massively important customer, and Boeing aren't exactly faultless in spott
164 SNATH: Let's agree to disagree on this. In fact, IF this is true (is it? I don't know; we don't have all the facts yet...), I cannot see how Southwest's rep
165 Tsaord: After watching CNN last night it seems WN and the FAA are to blame for this. They reported a FAA supervisor was demoted over this. They oversee the sa
166 SWABrian: New info from Southwest Some of you have asked about the rudder issue, and this is a press release addressing that concern: SOUTHWEST AIRLINES MAINTAI
167 Silver1SWA: Like I said the sensationalism begins with the title of the breaking story from CNN. They added some color to the story by choosing to word it like t
168 TVNWZ: Translation: The FAA has a point on the Letter of Penalty. But, it is a .006 of a point, but a point none the less.
169 Dragon6172: So WN realizes that it has been missing a portion of this inspection and they want to fix it. As an operator, of course they are thinking of meeting
170 SCCutler: Ignorance can be an ugly thing, and we have seen some of the most stunning displays thereof here. many, many inflammatory posts, most utterly devoid o
171 Tdscanuck: They do go hand-in-hand, but it's a one-way relationship. Unsafe equals unairworthy. Unairworthy does not equal unsafe. The vast vast vast majority o
172 OPNLguy: You said it... What you'll now likely see in the coming days/weeks is that every time a "routine" non-routine event comes along (blown tires, gate re
174 SCCutler: Sadly enough, it appears that I cannot do that (in specifics) without violating the TOS for the site; but in general, those who state that the airlin
175 Bennett123: Clearly the FAA should enforce it's own rules and the airlines should comply with them. That said, if you compare the accident record of WN with some
177 AirportGuy1971: Because aircraft with visible cracks in the skin are totally safe...
178 Dragon6172: The worst part is where you changed what the report read. What I read was "An FAA inspector at a Southwest Airlines maintenance facility spotted a fu
179 APFPilot1985: Read the actual full text of the letter from the FAA and you will see that you are wrong
180 Cjpark: Who on this board actually knows the actual facts and circumstances of this situation? I don't. Do you SC? There are only two parties that actually k
181 Dragon6172: Read it. Reviewed it. Found that in the entire letter the FAA inspector and how the missed inspections were discovered was not mentioned at all in 6
182 APFPilot1985: I've read it and it makes it very clear that the possible scenario that you stated in your last post didn't happen.
183 Dragon6172: It does not say it did happen. It does not say it didn't. It certainly does not say... which was the point I was trying to make.
184 SCCutler: We are in complete agreement, CJ. I imagine no one who posts here has the merest shred of the facts as they apply and, if they do, they are probably
185 WNBob: Until they find WN bribed the FAA inspectors to keep the planes flying, I find this issue troublesome to all parties involved, but not fatal. It's a g
186 Barney Captain: An independent PROFESSIONAL observation made by Gregory A. Feith, former NTSB lead investigator. Many of you know this individual from his many appear
187 OPNLguy: Regretfully, this will undoubtedly never get the same level of attention that the first wave of media stories did. Had the media had this same info o
188 Cjpark: Barney, isn't the Dallas Biz Journal the Southwest Company paper? http://www.nbc5i.com/news/15532216/detail.html Interesting story on Dallas NBC 5. Po
189 Tdscanuck: Bingo. Sort of. Any aircraft designed for damage tolerance can withstand limit loads with detectable cracks (up to a certain size) in the skin. Tom.
190 CALPSAFltSkeds: FYI: Here's the text of a just received e-mail from Southwest to Rapid Rewards members: Dear Rapid Rewards Member: Southwest Airlines: We take Safety
191 OPNLguy: Nope, but hey, you already know that... There's something else here that's interesting. You mention "allegations" in one sentence, and then refer to
192 SCCutler: Not Barney, but the Dallas Business Journal is the Dallas outlet for the "Bizjournals" publications, one of forty-two (42) local editions. http://www
193 APFPilot1985: You really are comparing apples to oranges though, in this case we have an actual letter from the FAA detailing the violations.
194 OPNLguy: My comments were directed at the media's increasingly frequent tendency to go into the "J'accuse!" mode armed with incomplete facts and/or the lack o
195 Silver1SWA: Couldn't have said it any better. That is exactly the point that seems to be continually overlooked in this thread and is exactly why
196 OPNLguy: Glad someone caught it... And now, an oldie but a goodie: Love the last verse: We can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing When it's said and done,
197 Cjpark: OP, The Bizjournal has always sided with Southwest. Question is does a man hired by Southwest to express an opinion of safety for Southwest regardles
198 OPNLguy: Always? It's precisely those credentials that give him the technical expertise and credibility on the issue. I've met Mr. Feith before, and his profe
199 EMBQA: Actually..............yes it can be safe. The crack would need to be looked at, inspected, checked aganst the airframe SRM or the manufacture contact
200 SCCutler: I have had the occasional opportunity of being interviewed or consulted by Bizjournal reporters (not on matters relatd to aviation), and they have al
201 TVNWZ: With all due respect, you are really grasping at straws. All the media has done, so far, is report on the workings of government. The FAA says this,
202 Mayor: Congressman Oberstar is head of the Transportation Committee in Congress. His news conference was on C-span the other day and the investigation is not
203 EMBQA: As an employee of Southwest I think OPNLguy is one of the only people that have a right to comment on the truth here. The media rarely gets things co
204 OPNLguy: With equal respect, please refer to post #194 and note exactly what I am, and am not commenting upon. Oh, how I'd like to be more specific...but can'
205 APFPilot1985: Bull... anyone who has read the letter from the FAA to WN is just as informed as to the claims as anyone.
206 EMBQA: You have never had any real dealings with the FAA on any level have you...? They LOVE big legal sounding words and letters........and No, you're wron
207 APFPilot1985: I deal with the FAA everyday, I know all about their burdensome legal requirements. Also, part 6 is an IF sounds more like an alternative method of c
208 Cjpark: You really did not think your answer through; here we have a reporter repeating what is now common knowledge with the new reportage of a witness to t
209 Planemaker: I agree. Many times I have experienced aircraft not getting their CofA for such "trivial" things such as a document missing a diagonal line drawn acr
210 APFPilot1985: But that is clearly not what happened in this case, while it is true and I have seen the same thing, it is not relevant.
211 TxAgKuwait: I will be interested in seeing how all of this plays out. I think it is clear that WN plans to appeal the fine, to put it mildly. WN discovered the er
212 EMBQA: How do you know that....?? Just because you've read the FAA letter you now have all the answers...? Have you read the AD...? Have you read the SB....
213 SCCutler: CJ, there is no question that expert witnesses are paid mouthpieces- but (and here's where that word, "expert," comes into play), they have to actual
214 Cjpark: No one is discounting the use of consultants for business and engineering solutions because results validate the consultant one way or the other. Whe
215 SWABrian: Latest from Southwest, Hi everyone, we just issued this press release and it has some additional info: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....rticle_P
216 Ouboy79: CNN ran the story this morning: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/12/southwest.airlines/index.html Story Highlights Lawmaker calls April 3 hearing, says i
217 Richierich: With no facts or support to back this up, I found this statement to be pretty far off base. While on the one hand you are saying people are jumping t
218 TVNWZ: Now that Southwest has grounded 40 planes, the expert guy must have sensed some more problems. That and the discipline of several WN employees means t
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