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Retirement Of Troubled Flight Numbers?  
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7310 times:

Don't the all the airlines permanently retire the flight numbers of flights involved in crashes? Or is this just BS?
I heard that is the case...

Then what is the story behind flight number 191?

Comair flight 191
Delta flight 191
AA flight 191

Google the flights if you are not familiar with them, you'll see what I mean...

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

It is a strange and eerie coincidence that 191 seems to be the "unlucky" number. I can only speak for DL, but we haven't used the '191' flight number since the accident at DFW.

Other flight 191s:

jetBlue 191, JFK-LAS
AirTran 191, DCA-ATL
United 191, DAY-ORD
Northwest 191, MSP-SAN
Alaska 191, ANC-FAI


User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7150 times:



Quoting Klwright69 (Thread starter):
Don't the all the airlines permanently retire the flight numbers of flights involved in crashes? Or is this just BS?

It is true. This usually only happens when there are fatalities and widespread media attention.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7132 times:



Quoting Klwright69 (Thread starter):
Comair flight 191

Comair was 5191....



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7091 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Comair was 5191....

They're talking about DL191 which was FLL-DFW, crashed due to microbursts on approach. Aircraft was a L-1011.

Comair 5191 is another one though. DL5191 (COM191) has not been used since the crash: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/COM191


User currently offlineCBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7039 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Comair was 5191

I believe the 5 is the Delta code, so when Comair operates it, the 5 is dropped so it does become Comair 191!

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 1):
Other flight 191s:

jetBlue 191, JFK-LAS
AirTran 191, DCA-ATL
United 191, DAY-ORD
Northwest 191, MSP-SAN
Alaska 191, ANC-FAI

US Airways 191, DFW-PHX-SAN
Great Lakes 191, SOW-PHX

Quoting Klwright69 (Thread starter):
Don't the all the airlines permanently retire the flight numbers of flights involved in crashes? Or is this just BS?
I heard that is the case...

Back to the OP, if a certain flight number is involved in a crash, it is usually that specific airline that retires the number, not the entire industry!

I am generally not a superstitious person, however 191 is a flight number I try to avoid at all costs. Call it dumb or stupid, but thats just the way I am.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineJetstar From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6983 times:
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Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 5):
Back to the OP, if a certain flight number is involved in a crash, it is usually that specific airline that retires the number, not the entire industry!

True, but there is one exception I can think off, AA flight 1, a B-707 that crashed just after takeoff from New York’s Idlewild (now JFK) airport in 1962.

AA still uses Fight 1, JFK to LAX


User currently offlineCBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6844 times:



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 6):
True, but there is one exception I can think off, AA flight 1, a B-707 that crashed just after takeoff from New York's Idlewild (now JFK) airport in 1962.

AA still uses Fight 1, JFK to LAX

True...but I guess I should have specified, its more of a modern thing to do, to retire the flight number after a fatal air crash!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6824 times:

So I guess only the airline that had the plane crash retires the flight number. I don't like flying on a flight that has the same number as a flight that crashed. For example,it felt weird flying CO 93 after the movie about UA 93 had come out recently.

User currently offlineJasp25 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6773 times:



Quoting BAKJet (Reply 8):
For example,it felt weird flying CO 93 after the movie about UA 93 had come out recently.

.. and perhaps watching that movie in-flight? I wonder if airlines do that... I would probably say no. It's like watching the movie "Titanic" on your cruise vacation.

-jasp



-peace and chicken grease!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25312 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

Repeating my post from another thread on the same subject in January:

Many flight numbers involved in fatal accidents are in use today. Two AA examples:

AA320, L188 Electra near LGA in 1959 (65 of 73 fatal). AA320 today operates MIA-MBJ.
AA625, B727-100 at STT in 1976 (37 of 88 fatal). AA625 today operates MIA-PLS.

UA also has quite a few flight numbers today that were involved in fatal accidents in the past. A few examples:

UA173, DC-8-61 ran out of fuel and crashed near PDX in 1978 (10 of 189 fatal). UA173 today operates BOS-SFO.
UA227, B727-100 at SLC in 1965 (43 of 91 fatal). UA227 today operates DEN-LAX.
UA389, B727-100 crashed into Lake Michigan approaching ORD in 1965 (all 30 fatal). UA389 today operates IAD-DEN-OAK.
UA823, Vickers Viscount, crashed out of control in Tennessee in 1964 with onboard fire (all 39 fatal). UA823 today operates BOS-IAD-MEX.
UA826, DC-8-10 in midair collision with TWA L1049 Super Constellation over NYC in 1960 (all 128 aboard both aircraft fatal plus 5 on the ground). UA826 today operates SYD-LAX.
UA718, DC-7 in midair collision with another TWA L1049 Super Constellation over the Grand Canyon in 1956 (all 128 aboard both aircraft fatal). UA718 today operates SAN-DEN-BWI.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6683 times:

Well....call me superstitious, but I avoid booking flights with a 3 digit flight number that start and end with the same number...Delta 191, AA 191, UA232.

User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6636 times:



Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 9):
and perhaps watching that movie in-flight?

No it wasn't offered in the IFE, and no I didn't bring it with me.

Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 9):
It's like watching the movie "Titanic" on your cruise vacation

My uncle told me that on a recent cruise titanic was one of the movies that they offered.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6613 times:

Aloha no longer uses #243 (decompression in 1988; F/A C.B. Lansing died).

It seems like each airline might retire its own "unlucky" numbers, however only extremely well known numbers are dropped/avoided by many airlines.....I'm thinking TWA 800. Similarly, while United 93 is also extremely well known, many airlines still use that number. I know Aloha does, and it was mentioned above that Continental does.....perhaps it is not considered to be unlucky due to the heroic actions of those on board.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6581 times:



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 13):
I'm thinking TWA 800

I believe TWA800 actually had two incidents associated with it. There is of course the well-known 747 explosion over Long Island. I believe the other one happened many years before it with a 727 operating in Europe.


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6564 times:

Ive mentioned this before on here...

Eastern Air Lines continued to use flight 401 well into the mid 1980s despite the crash of a L-1011 operating with that flight number between JFK and Miami in December 1972.

In fact, Eastern used the flight number on the SAME route (late night JFK-MIA) into the mid 80's.

All of this despite the rumors and controversy surrounding the "Ghost of flight 401" that was not only rumored but also reported in multiple books and television movies.

Here is a link to an Eastern timetable 10 years after the accident, dated 1982 still showing JFK-MIA operating as EA401:

http://www.departedflights.com/EA030282p62.html


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6536 times:



Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 9):
It's like watching the movie "Titanic" on your cruise vacation.

I was on the Carnival Conquest in September 2004 with my ex-girlfriend (she and I are still friends), and we had our picture taken by a professional photographer on board the ship. The background was of Titanic's Grand Staircase. How is that for irony?


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25312 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6494 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 14):
Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 13):
I'm thinking TWA 800

I believe TWA800 actually had two incidents associated with it. There is of course the well-known 747 explosion over Long Island. I believe the other one happened many years before it with a 727 operating in Europe.

The previous fatal TWA800 accident was a 707, not a 727, November 23, 1964 at FCO. Went off the runway and caught fire after aborting takeoff (departing for ATH), with 50 fatalities and 23 survivors.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19641123-0


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6458 times:



Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 5):
I am generally not a superstitious person, however 191 is a flight number I try to avoid at all costs. Call it dumb or stupid, but thats just the way I am.

So you are superstitious !  Wink

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 14):
I believe TWA800 actually had two incidents associated with it.

March 5th 1968 : Ar France B707 F-BLCJ crashed during approach at PTP, operating AF212 SCL-UIO-CCS-PTP-ORY

Dec. 3rd 1969 : Air France B707 F-BHSZ mysteriously crashed in the sea shortly after take off from CCS, operating the same light AF212 to ORY.

Quoting N702ML (Reply 15):
Eastern Air Lines continued to use flight 401 well into the mid 1980s despite the crash of a L-1011 operating with that flight number between JFK and Miami in December 1972.

After the A340 crash at YYZ in 2005, AF348 remained the flight number of the Daily CDG-YYZ
It was changed for other reason last season to AF432.


User currently offlineBrisseDK From Denmark, joined Nov 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6447 times:

SK911 was changed to SK909 after the tragic events of 11th sep. 2001.

The flight went CPH-EWR.

Regards,
BJ



Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
User currently offlineTribird1011 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6394 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
After the A340 crash at YYZ in 2005, AF348 remained the flight number of the Daily CDG-YYZ
It was changed for other reason last season to AF432.

Actually it was AF 358 CDG-YYZ / AF 359 YYZ-CDG (inbound 358 ran off the end)
it's been changed to AF 352 CDG-YYZ / AF 353 YYZ-CDG

not sure the reason for the change though, and it was a few months after the accident, as AF358/359 came in daily after the occurence


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6387 times:



Quoting Tribird1011 (Reply 20):
Actually it was AF 358 CDG-YYZ / AF 359 YYZ-CDG (inbound 358 ran off the end)
it's been changed to AF 352 CDG-YYZ / AF 353 YYZ-CDG

Ooops ! typo ! Thanks for correcting.

AF358 continued to operate (after the accident in August 2005) until October 2006. It was changed in Nov. 2006 into AF352 so the crash in YYZ was obviously not the reason.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25312 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Swissair's JFK-GVA flight SR111 was changed to SR115 a couple of days after the SR111 MD-11 crash near YHZ in 1998.

User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6037 times:

Prinair flight 191 crashed with 2 fatalities


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6022 times:

You can also still book yourself on BA38, PEK-LHR. Operated by a Boeing 777-200ER. With RR engines. No superstition at BA then.....!

25 JetJeanes : Now that i think about it the famous video of etheopian plane that ran out of fuel after being highjacked wasnt that flight 191 as well
26 Post contains images FlySSC : It was ET961. The aircraft was operating a scheduled passenger flight from Addis Ababa to Abidjan, via Nairobi, Brazzaville, and Lagos.
27 Altairf28 : I've periodically checked most major US airlines and haven't found a flight 911 so I think that is one number that has been universally retired (or a
28 Post contains images PGNCS : It's a coincidence. OK, you're superstitious! Don't forget Southern 242, Eastern 212, United 585...can I stop now? Of course if you look for flight n
29 Cactus739 : You're superstitious.
30 UltimateDelta : I'm not certain, but I think Midwest still operates flight 105, despite the crash in 1985 at MKE. And I know that AA965 to Cali is now AA921, so I gue
31 Post contains images PanAm747 : In previous discussions on this topic here, it has been mentioned that the first real crash to be identified primarily by its flight number was Easter
32 Post contains images Viscount724 : They have a longer memory for aircraft types associated with accidents. AA removed the DC-10 identification from it's DC-10 fleet after the AA191 cra
33 Cjbmibe : BD092 Is still in use today. I've flown it a fair few times and I've serviced it a lot since its a LHR-BHD flight and I work at BHD. 92 was a 734 and
34 GolfBravoRomeo : I tend to avoid flights numbered 5050, I don't like those odds. Remember US 5050 into the water at LGA. I wonder if they still use that for substitut
35 Klwright69 : Yes, I understand that it is a coincidence. I understand that this is not a metaphysical forum, rather a commercial aviation one. The point was I tho
36 Post contains images Kevin777 : In December 2006 VS showed "Snakes on a Plane" on a flight from LHR to BOM.. he he pretty cool Regards, Kevin777
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