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Pan Am Fleet Question  
User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7410 times:

Hey everyone.... I have a question about Pan Am's fleet (the first and only good one). Why does it seem that they ordered aircraft that were competing against each other? for example:

Boeing 707 & Douglas DC-8

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Photo © Lars Söderström
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Photo © Peter Seemann


Both from 1968


McDonnell Douglas DC-10 & Lockheed L-1011 & Boeing 747 (If you want to include it)

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © John Toomey - Photovation Images



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Photo © Bob Garrard


All from 1984

So does anyone know why this was? Did it give them the best toys? Most flexibility?

Any Help?
-Carl


If Your Dying Were Flying
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7375 times:

Juan Trippe had a tendency to play Boeing and Douglas against each other to get the aircraft configuration he wanted. Hence, Pan Am operated both the DC-8 and 707. He was a famous negotiator. The DC-8/707 ordeal was one of the best examples of that. Basically...from what I remember...Trippe wanted a larger 707 than what Boeing initially offered, so he then ordered DC-8's, so Boeing changed the 707 configuration to meet PA's needs.

PA got the DC-10's when it acquired NA.


User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5615 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7236 times:

MSY is correct, but it merits adding that, when orders were placed for the first generation of jet transports, there was considerable uncertainty as to which would be first, which would be better and (indeed) whether either/all would be delivered. It was all very new then.

Besides the DC-8 and the 707, Pan Am also ordered the Comet 4C from De Havilland- some covering bet!

The Comets ultimately went to Mexicana, in which carrier PanAm had a stake at the time.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7213 times:

Just to add fuel to the fire, here is a quote from a book I have entitled "Propliners: A Half-Century of the World's Great Propeller-Driven Airliners" by Clinton H. Groves.

On page 86, there is a beautiful picture of a TransOcean Airways Stratocruiser, with the following caption:

Quote:
As United and Pan Am began to fly jets between California and Hawaii, Pan Am did something that today could find them prosecuted for ruthless competition. Pan Am ordered first generation jets from both Boeing and Douglas. They then advised both manufacturers that, should they sell jets to TransOcean (a head-to-head competitor in that lucrative market) Pan Am would buy no more jets from them. TransOcean held talks with American Airlines about leasing a 707-123, but that never came about. Left with Stratocruisers and Connies to compete against 707's and DC-8's, TransOcean soon ran out of operating capital and shut down.

I take that with a grain of salt, but I don't completely discount it. I agree with MSYtristar in that Juan Trippe was an incredible negotiator, as Boeing was bound and determined that the 707 would only seat 5 across, but relented when Trippe threatened to withdraw his order and go with the DC-8.

DC-10's from National, L1011's on their own order, launch customer for the 747...virtually all proved, in the end, to be too much capacity. But a 747 never looked better than in Pan Am colors!!  cloudnine 



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7153 times:
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Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
I take that with a grain of salt, but I don't completely discount it. I agree with MSYtristar in that Juan Trippe was an incredible negotiator,

The book Birds of Prey says much the same thing. He fought for everything, not just for fleets, but to be the only international carrier, etc...and he hated the name Juan.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8508 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6877 times:
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PAN AM got the Dc-10 National airlines and had ordered L-1011-500 before they merged with National. It was a disater which led to Pan Am's death. National stock was at 16 when the merger started, they paid 50 per share. Texas Air, parent of Continental and Eastern, made off like a bandit since they owned a huge chunk of stock bought cheaply. PA overpaid for National and got DC-10's, they should have purchased an east-west airline.

User currently offlineA999 From Norway, joined Mar 2004, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6652 times:

Not only did they fly three different widebodies; there were three different engine makers as well!

User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6320 times:



Quoting A999 (Reply 6):
Not only did they fly three different widebodies; there were three different engine makers as well!

And later on A300s and 310s! (really the same type but...)

-IR


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5724 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5370 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
But a 747 never looked better than in Pan Am colors!!

Except for the 747's in TWA colors...



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineNasmal From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5362 times:

Also you make aircraft makers start compeitively pricing their aircraft.

User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2400 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Obviously the National merger should have never taken place. Perhaps it would have made sense in the early 70's, but it was unnecessary for the post deregulation era. Therefore, the DC-10's should have never been a part of the fleet. The Tristar 500's were a good idea, more fuel efficient and less operating costs than the 741's.

Having a fleet of these three widebodies wasn't the end of the world. However, the decision to trade the DC-10's and L-1011's away for more 741's was a costly mistake. As a result, Pan Am was stuck with many aging, fuel guzzling 741's flying routes often half full. When the mistake was realized, more Airbuses were ordered, but by then it was too late.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

Good point. In 1980 Pan Am acquired National Airlines that flew to Florida. I think that's how they got the DC-10s but I may be wrong. As to why they operated DC-8s and B707s and L-1011s don't know. Not very efficient to fly all this different equipment. I flew on all these Pan Am aircraft. I never liked Pan Am but they had the best frequent flyer program. That's why I stuck with them.

User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

When Trippe ordered the 707, it was a five across, domestic range airplane, while the DC-8 was a 6 across in coach intercontinental range aircraft. The 707 was available first, so Trippe ordered both. When American told Boeing they wouldn't buy the 707 unless the fuselage was widened to seat six across in coach, Boeing relented and widened the aircraft. Remember, until the 707, Boeing had not built a commercially successful passenger aircraft. They only sold 56 model 377 Stratocruisers, and even fewer 307 Stratoliners. Douglas, Lockheed, and Convair were the large American airliner manufactureres. Trippe viewed the 707 as an interim airplane. It was only when Boeing enlarged the 707 and then developed the intercontintal range 300 series that Pan Am reordered the 707, which led to the DC-8 becoming the financially unsuccessful airplane, leading Douglas to merge with McDonnell and giving Boeing a lead it never gave up, leading to the acquisition by Boeing of McDonnell Douglas, and end of Douglas Commercial airplane production with the MD-11 and Boeing 717/MD-95. Also remember that in the mid 50's when Trippe ordered both, few aircraft stayed in an airlines fleet for more than ten years.

User currently offlineNWOrientDC10 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1404 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4865 times:
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Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 8):
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
But a 747 never looked better than in Pan Am colors!!

Except for the 747's in TWA colors...

Actually, TWA and Pan Am's 747 looked good:

Pan Am:

http://www.zap16.com/images/B747-1%20Pan%20Am%20N733PA.jpg
TWA:



Good Day  Smile

Russell



Things aren't always as they seem
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5724 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4576 times:



Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 13):
Actually, TWA and Pan Am's 747 looked good:

That's what I was hinting at



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
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