MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6552 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7129 times:
Juan Trippe had a tendency to play Boeing and Douglas against each other to get the aircraft configuration he wanted. Hence, Pan Am operated both the DC-8 and 707. He was a famous negotiator. The DC-8/707 ordeal was one of the best examples of that. Basically...from what I remember...Trippe wanted a larger 707 than what Boeing initially offered, so he then ordered DC-8's, so Boeing changed the 707 configuration to meet PA's needs.
SCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5505 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6990 times:
MSY is correct, but it merits adding that, when orders were placed for the first generation of jet transports, there was considerable uncertainty as to which would be first, which would be better and (indeed) whether either/all would be delivered. It was all very new then.
Besides the DC-8 and the 707, Pan Am also ordered the Comet 4C from De Havilland- some covering bet!
The Comets ultimately went to Mexicana, in which carrier PanAm had a stake at the time.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6967 times:
Just to add fuel to the fire, here is a quote from a book I have entitled "Propliners: A Half-Century of the World's Great Propeller-Driven Airliners" by Clinton H. Groves.
On page 86, there is a beautiful picture of a TransOcean Airways Stratocruiser, with the following caption:
Quote: As United and Pan Am began to fly jets between California and Hawaii, Pan Am did something that today could find them prosecuted for ruthless competition. Pan Am ordered first generation jets from both Boeing and Douglas. They then advised both manufacturers that, should they sell jets to TransOcean (a head-to-head competitor in that lucrative market) Pan Am would buy no more jets from them. TransOcean held talks with American Airlines about leasing a 707-123, but that never came about. Left with Stratocruisers and Connies to compete against 707's and DC-8's, TransOcean soon ran out of operating capital and shut down.
I take that with a grain of salt, but I don't completely discount it. I agree with MSYtristar in that Juan Trippe was an incredible negotiator, as Boeing was bound and determined that the 707 would only seat 5 across, but relented when Trippe threatened to withdraw his order and go with the DC-8.
DC-10's from National, L1011's on their own order, launch customer for the 747...virtually all proved, in the end, to be too much capacity. But a 747 never looked better than in Pan Am colors!!
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Jfk777 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6631 times:
PAN AM got the Dc-10 National airlines and had ordered L-1011-500 before they merged with National. It was a disater which led to Pan Am's death. National stock was at 16 when the merger started, they paid 50 per share. Texas Air, parent of Continental and Eastern, made off like a bandit since they owned a huge chunk of stock bought cheaply. PA overpaid for National and got DC-10's, they should have purchased an east-west airline.
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2342 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4956 times:
Obviously the National merger should have never taken place. Perhaps it would have made sense in the early 70's, but it was unnecessary for the post deregulation era. Therefore, the DC-10's should have never been a part of the fleet. The Tristar 500's were a good idea, more fuel efficient and less operating costs than the 741's.
Having a fleet of these three widebodies wasn't the end of the world. However, the decision to trade the DC-10's and L-1011's away for more 741's was a costly mistake. As a result, Pan Am was stuck with many aging, fuel guzzling 741's flying routes often half full. When the mistake was realized, more Airbuses were ordered, but by then it was too late.
Semsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4860 times:
Good point. In 1980 Pan Am acquired National Airlines that flew to Florida. I think that's how they got the DC-10s but I may be wrong. As to why they operated DC-8s and B707s and L-1011s don't know. Not very efficient to fly all this different equipment. I flew on all these Pan Am aircraft. I never liked Pan Am but they had the best frequent flyer program. That's why I stuck with them.
Milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4661 times:
When Trippe ordered the 707, it was a five across, domestic range airplane, while the DC-8 was a 6 across in coach intercontinental range aircraft. The 707 was available first, so Trippe ordered both. When American told Boeing they wouldn't buy the 707 unless the fuselage was widened to seat six across in coach, Boeing relented and widened the aircraft. Remember, until the 707, Boeing had not built a commercially successful passenger aircraft. They only sold 56 model 377 Stratocruisers, and even fewer 307 Stratoliners. Douglas, Lockheed, and Convair were the large American airliner manufactureres. Trippe viewed the 707 as an interim airplane. It was only when Boeing enlarged the 707 and then developed the intercontintal range 300 series that Pan Am reordered the 707, which led to the DC-8 becoming the financially unsuccessful airplane, leading Douglas to merge with McDonnell and giving Boeing a lead it never gave up, leading to the acquisition by Boeing of McDonnell Douglas, and end of Douglas Commercial airplane production with the MD-11 and Boeing 717/MD-95. Also remember that in the mid 50's when Trippe ordered both, few aircraft stayed in an airlines fleet for more than ten years.