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Hub To Hub - Why The High Frequency?  
User currently offlineDL757FAN From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Don't flame me if this has been discussed (as my query was unsuccessful)...but why do airlines have high frequencies from one hub to another?

For example, the O & D from SLC-ATL is roughly 600 people/day but DL has approximately NINE daily flights with a mix of 757-200's and 767-400's. In addition, the loads on the specific route mentioned are most to completely full. Are there crews deadheading? Transferring pax's through multiple connections? Can someone help me out with this (as the answer may be completely obvious)?

Thanks!

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 575 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

The purpose of a hub is to bring people from smaller cities to one location and funnel them from there. In the case of DL this is ATL, CVG and SLC. If a passenger is transiting from MSO-PBI there is not enough of demand to fly that route so they will bring the passengers to the nearest hub and then there may be demand from that hub to the destination. If not, then they need to go to another hub which can get them there.

Basically it is similar to taking a bus in an area with transfers or high rise buildings with sky lobbies.


User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

I think a lot of it is multiple connections. If someone wanted to go from RNO to JAX, they would have a lot of options going RNO-SLC-ATL-JAX.

Also interesting to note what has become of ATL-CVG over the years. Now it is just a small handful of flights. A mix of RJ's and mainline. I forget the specifics, but a few years ago it was much more than that.


User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

1) Double connections from different regions of the country.
2) To Hub A, Hub B is a spoke. To Hub B, Hub A is a spoke.
3) (Often) limited options on other airlines for O&D traffic.
4) Crew and employee business travel.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4949 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Ask UA. They are the king of widebody interhub flights... 767s, 777s galore, and at the end of the month, 747s between SFO and ORD.


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineNWA757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5287 times:

Some days of the week there are 22 flights between MSP and DTW some leave within minutes of each other aircraft varies from DC9 to 753

User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5258 times:

For people like me! I am flying ANC-IND April 3rd. Surprisingly enough, Delta was the cheapest. However, during the winter months, DL only flys from ANC-SLC. And DL only flys to IND from ATL. So.....I get to fly ANC-SLC-ATL-IND. And I am sure there are alot of passengers(especially headed out of ANC) that are flying to the east coast/midwest, where DL only flys to out of ATL...

User currently offlineDL757FAN From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5213 times:



Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 5):
Some days of the week there are 22 flights between MSP and DTW some leave within minutes of each other aircraft varies from DC9 to 753

WOW...the MSP-DTW frequency is a shocker!

My general thought was that these aircraft can be utilized on routes that would generate more revenue. I am assuming these hub to hub flights make money?


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5060 times:



Quoting NWA757boy (Reply 5):
Some days of the week there are 22 flights between MSP and DTW some leave within minutes of each other aircraft varies from DC9 to 753

Yep for instance June 20th MSP-DTW
15 flights

Flight/Dep/Arr/Aircraft
740/0600/0838/757-200
744/0640/0925/DC9-50
742/0655/0935/757-200
752/0855/1130/A320
768/1015/1258/D9S
750/1120/1407/A320
762/1255/1544/757-200
754/1256/1545/757-200
766/1420/1706/D9S
756/1505/1751/757-300
746/1650/1951/DC-9-50
758/1651/1952/DC-9-50
738/1840/2135/757-200
764/2115/2350/757-200
760/2215/0050/A319

As you can see a few flights depart within a minute of each other.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1516 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5046 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
Ask UA. They are the king of widebody interhub flights... 767s, 777s galore, and at the end of the month, 747s between SFO and ORD.

UA moves it's boarded and containerized cargo between US hubs on widebodies, not to mention repo-ing aircraft for MX and flight skds.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

ORD-DEN on UA tomorrow:

12 nonstops (3x 772, 1x 763, 5x 757, 1x 320, 1x 733, 1x 735)


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4951 times:



Quoting DL757FAN (Reply 7):
My general thought was that these aircraft can be utilized on routes that would generate more revenue. I am assuming these hub to hub flights make money?

As flights by themselves, they may not make money, but it's probably very hard to tell because not that many tickets are sold with both endpoints at hubs. They have to happen to allow all the connections to make money. Hub-to-hub is the "infrastructure" that allows the spoke routes to make money.

Tom.


User currently offlineRW170 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4888 times:



Quoting AS777 (Reply 6):
DL only flys to IND from ATL

Actually DL flies from IND to ATL, CVG, and JFK.



319/320/321/712/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/763/CR2/CR9/DH8/135/145/170/175/190/D9S/D94/D95/M82/M83/M88
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4830 times:



Quoting DL757FAN (Thread starter):
For example, the O & D from SLC-ATL is roughly 600 people/day but DL has approximately NINE daily flights with a mix of 757-200's and 767-400's. In addition, the loads on the specific route mentioned are most to completely full. Are there crews deadheading? Transferring pax's through multiple connections? Can someone help me out with this (as the answer may be completely obvious)?

Both are hub cities for DL. Many cities in the which DL serves with connecting flights in the ATL area are too small to support direct flights to SLC, and vice versa. Plus to facilitate connections at either end, higher frequencies are needed to provide convenient timings for passengers using both airports as hubs to get from a city in the Southeast to a city in the West.

Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
Ask UA. They are the king of widebody interhub flights... 767s, 777s galore, and at the end of the month, 747s between SFO and ORD.

Greater base line traffic between SFO and ORD compared to SLC and ATL. Plus SLC is not a major airport for widebodies, so no need to reposition airplanes between two hubs for DL.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4767 times:



Quoting RW170 (Reply 12):
Quoting AS777 (Reply 6):
DL only flys to IND from ATL

Actually DL flies from IND to ATL, CVG, and JFK.

That is correct, forgive me. I meant, they do not fly from SLC-IND.


User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

I think a part of hub to hub flying is to get the airplanes transferred from one hub to another for maintence checks. Might as well throw some paying pax on.


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2947 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

This reply hits many of the nails right on the head:

Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 3):
1) Double connections from different regions of the country.
2) To Hub A, Hub B is a spoke. To Hub B, Hub A is a spoke.
3) (Often) limited options on other airlines for O&D traffic.
4) Crew and employee business travel.

#2 is a big one. Need to fly from DTW to Albuquerque? Because DTW passengers are very likely to be NW WioldPerks addicts, they'll connect at MSP rather than on another airline in DEN, CVG, ORD, etc. It also happens when flights are unavailable in nonstop markets or cheap nonstop seats sell out. MSP-GSO 1x/day nonstop on the CRJ might not be at a good time or might have low-level fares sell out. But if you're going to connect MSP - XXX - GSO fore a low fare or better time anyway, for MSP passengers Northwest wins a lot of that connecting traffic.

I'll add a #5 as well. Oversales, irregular ops, missed flights, and similar issues at a hub put a lot of displaced passengers up for grabs even on good days. Being able to reroute them via your own hub still keeps the customer experience in your own control and keeps the revenue internal.


User currently offlineIflewrepublic From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 537 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

Don't forget that the aircraft, whether it's a CRJ or a 753, is assigned to another route once it arrives at the hub. Those aircraft don't just bounce back and forth between the hub cities - they will traverse the route system near and far to bring those connecting passengers into the hubs and out to the outstations. The flights leaving within minutes of each other allow for flexibility and connectivity in the system.

Iflewrepublic.



Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

Also remember that hubs are usually pretty big O&D markets themselves, and because a single airline often dominates the local market, that airline has lots of loyal frequent flyers at both ends.

Take DFW-ORD for example. It's a large O&D market in and of itself. AA has a whopping 17 flights each way on this route, though because it has a disproportionate number of loyal AAdvantage members flying both ways. On DFW-ATL, for example, AA is splitting frequent flyers on that route with DL. Not so with DFW-ORD.

[Edit: I know ORD is also a big UA hub, but the example still holds.]



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Dont have the number on hand but YYZ-YUL # of daily flight is crazy... AirCanada, WestJet, minimum of 30 flight in a day

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19951 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

It drives me crazy. Then people wonder why all the delays.

Well, I remember the time when I was flying on UAL from ORD-SFO (this was in 1998 or so). I was on a 757. An A320 on the same route took off --get this-- TWO MINUTES before us. The entire trip, there was that other plane blinking away in the distance at about our 10-o'-clock. And then, of course, when we came in to land, we had to circle a bit because of "air traffic." Well gee, I wonder what the traffic was?

Now let's analyze the sense of this: two captains and two FO's had to fly two aircraft with a total of four engines to fly two missions that could have been done with a single 767-300 with one captain, one FO, and two engines.

Then again, UAL uses A319's on SFO-JFK (or EWR, I forget which).

I grant you DO need a lot of hub-to-hub frequency for various reasons, but there is never a valid justification to have two small aircraft fly the same regularly scheduled route within a half hour of each-other when one larger aircraft could do the job.


User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4212 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):

Yes but those Larger aircraft are on other more lucrative routes


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

These are called conduit markets....I am actually surprised that ATL-SLC has as many as 600 PDEWs.


Connections from SLC via ATL to places like SAV
Comnections from ATL via SLC to places like EUG
Double Conencts from EUG to SAV via ATL and SLC

This is why there is so much traffic


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4158 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 18):
Take DFW-ORD for example. It's a large O&D market in and of itself. AA has a whopping 17 flights each way on this route, though because it has a disproportionate number of loyal AAdvantage members flying both ways. On DFW-ATL, for example, AA is splitting frequent flyers on that route with DL. Not so with DFW-ORD.

In the late 1990s it was up to 27


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3108 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4085 times:



Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 3):
Double connections from different regions of the country.

 checkmark  Especially in the case you mention, SLC is a smaller city without much O&D to cities in the Southeast and East Coast. Thus, the flights take people from smaller cities in the West to smaller cities in the East.

Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
Ask UA. They are the king of widebody interhub flights... 767s, 777s galore, and at the end of the month, 747s between SFO and ORD.

Yes but in fairness, when your hubs are ORD/LAX/SFO/DEN/IAD there is a lot more O&D demand between them, in addition to connecting traffic, than compared with ATL/SLC/CVG.


25 Post contains images Qantas744ER : SQ SIN-KUL Today 6x B772 Leo
26 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : Not long ago, you could get a 767-300 on ATL-CVG. I miss those days. Sounds like one was a delay, and you can't just pull a 767-300 out of thin air t
27 Aircellist : Nothing as crazy as the two moments in the day shown by Burnsie: ...But close... This is a combo list: flights for today and tomorrow, and for April
28 RJdxer : Which brings up another question, how many of those flights numbers continue beyond hub to an outstation? Such as flight leaving DTW for MSP and then
29 AFGMEL : I'll say it again. You need much larger aircraft with lower frequencies. Air travel is increasing. That's the only logical solution.
30 PWM2TXLHopper : Well apparently there is some sort of justification if a major airline was doing it. I tend to think the airlines know what they're doing? In 1998, j
31 Tdscanuck : I agree with you that that's going to be the trend, but it's not as straightforward as it may sound. Lower frequency means longer layovers...that put
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