Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Will Western Airlines 'ever' Buy Russian In Bulk?  
User currently offlineHypersonic From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5416 times:

Greetings,
Do you think we will ever see the day when a major Western airline, (US, European, or any with a sizable fleet), takes the plunge and makes a large order for a Russian aircraft. (Medium (100+ seats) / large capacity (200+ seats)).
Given that the latest models can/are running on western engines & have western avionics etc?
Even in this day & age, are the latest Russian engines & avonics still behind Western? - & thus if a Russian plane has 100% Russian parts, should it really matter?

Is it a shame that it's always either Boeing, or Airbus, with a little sprinkling of Embraer here & there - Which indicates that the decisions to nearly always buy Western usually contains some level of business politics influencing the decision, rather than purely the merits of an aircraft's capabilities?

Are we seeing the fact that current Russian airliners 'ARE', or can be up to scratch, but are still being snubbed / overlooked, mostly because of perception & not because of performance, capabilities etc?

Or... Have there/ or are going to be, large orders from Western Airlines (think the likes of BA, LH, UA, AF etc...) that will make a significant order for the latest Tupolev or Ilyushin?

Look forward to your thoughts on this.

Many thanks

Hyper

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

From my understanding, especially in terms of engine efficience and airplane automation (remeber, Tu-154 is flown by 4-5 people) the russian technology is way behind the western. IMO thats the most driving fact for airlines round the world to not buy russian, rather than political issues. But, no doubt, long time spare part availability and therewith connected the amount of dependance on russian good will is certainly nothing that helps russian plane sells.
It has been discussed in the Sukhoi-Jet threads if SAS could by it as Q400 replacement but was ruled out due to the fact that no major western airline wants to experience spare part related what Ukraine is now with gas.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

As long as Russia isn't able to sell the Tu334 or the other new planes to third world airlines, I see no chance. The hand full Tu204 freighters to Egypt are their biggest success of the last 15 years if I remember well.

The other question is WHEN are Airbus and Boeing having larger parts produced in Russia.


User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1411 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

There was atime that European aircraft manufacturers could really only nibble at the edges of airline orders, when compared to the size of orders obtained by American manufatcurers. However who would have thought 35 years ago that Boeing would be competeing head to head with Airbus, probably not the American manufacturers.

With that said I think the Russians will have to dispel the belief that Russian built airliners are less safe and less efficient then western built airliners. This might already be a reality, but sometimes a myth is harder to dispel than the truth is.

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 1):
From my understanding, especially in terms of engine efficience and airplane automation
(remeber, Tu-154 is flown by 4-5 people)

If I am correct the Tu-154 first flew in 1968 when a 3 man crew was not unheard of in western airliners[ B727 and original Airbus aircraft] so this is not a true reflection on modern Russian technology

littlevc10


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5332 times:



Quoting VC10 (Reply 3):
If I am correct the Tu-154 first flew in 1968 when a 3 man crew was not unheard of in western airliners[ B727 and original Airbus aircraft] so this is not a true reflection on modern Russian technology

Hmm, rethinking it with your comment, you are absolutely right! Thanks for the note!


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5307 times:



Quoting Hypersonic (Thread starter):
Is it a shame that it's always either Boeing, or Airbus, with a little sprinkling of Embraer here & there - Which indicates that the decisions to nearly always buy Western usually contains some level of business politics influencing the decision, rather than purely the merits of an aircraft's capabilities?

How did Embraer become a major player in 100 seat jets? If a Brazilian company can do it, then there's no reason why the Russian's can't either. How many passengers know the E jets come from a South American country famous for football, Samba, beaches and the rainforest?

A Russian airframe with Western systems and engines might be an easier sell, as the infrastructure to support a 100% Russian plane around the world isn't very comprehensive...the future regional jets from China and Japan both use a lot of Western technology.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5209 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 5):
Is it a shame that it's always either Boeing, or Airbus, with a little sprinkling of Embraer here & there

the market for larger commercial aircraft cannot historically support more than two manufacturers profitabally. In order to make money off a model, the manufacturer must sell so many units that the total number of units sold often is close to 50% of total demand.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6924 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5173 times:

The real problem for Russian manufacturing is political, but not in the way that most people think. Until there is an environment in Russia where a manufacturer knows that if he invests billions in designing a product and will be allowed to sell and profit from that product without someone stepping in and either demanding a payoff, saying he can't sell it, or interfering in some other way, it won't happen. There must be an environment favorable to business in order for businesses to flourish. And seeing that civil airliners is probably the most capital intensive industry ever, it will be the last to develop in a questionable environment.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

Just to be fair: all more or less modern RUS airlines: TU-204, IL-96-300 are designed for 2 pilots.
Both made on "fly-by-wire" technology. That's why IL-86 and IL-96-300 are two different machines, though looking pretty much alike.

TU-154M - I am not sure - also has two in the cockpit.

The future of the Russian aviation industry is not clear for Russians themselves. The government is trying to establish ONE center for designing civil aircraft. But it is hard as TU and IL and YAK - they have great specialists but deeply oppose to the decision made by the government and signed by president Putin.

I guess prospects can not be seen right now. It depends on many factors. First of all - how the RUS economy is going to develop and how much will be invested in hi-tech.

Please keep in mind that a lot of today's resources available are being spent on completely new military/dual use technologies. Like cold plasma technology and other stuff which is not open to public.

And you are right: a lot depends of politics.
Russia remains the only country in the world (after Airbus won US tender for tankers) that produces ALL MILITARY EQUIPMENT - from soldier's boots - to fighters, missiles and own GPS system. Which is not good at all - but determined by today's geopolitical position of the country.

We all hope it will change for better.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

It's not just airframe quality, but the quality of the company behind it. Right now, Russia is one of the most corrupt business environments on earth, and there are few western airlines that would want to deal with the potential hassles and uncertainty of buying planes from Russia. With the government swinging back to the USSR style of central control and hostility, the conditions are getting worse, not better.

So the idea of "who would have thought Airbus, blah, blah, blah" isn't really a valid comparison.

The viable commercial airframes are coming from the more stable, open business environments in the world: canada, japan, the eu, brazil and the usa.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5082 times:



Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 5):
A Russian airframe with Western systems and engines might be an easier sell, as the infrastructure to support a 100% Russian plane around the world isn't very comprehensive...the future regional jets from China and Japan both use a lot of Western technology.

This is the answer to the original question. If Russia built an airplane with WESTERN engines and WESTERN avionics, and the plane could prove to be as efficient as its Western competition, then I think there would be much more attraction to buying Russian planes. But so far it seems like everything Russia has produced, notwithstanding the first decade of service for the Tu154 and notwithstanding the new SSJ, has always been well behind anything Boeing and Airbus put into service. The Tu204 vs. 757/737NG/A320 loses, the IL86 was no match for the A300/310 or 767, the IL96 is no match for the A330/340/777, and Russia has no answer for the 747/A380 are in a class of its own particularly the A380. I too would like to see more Russian aircraft flying around, but the bottom line, they just don't build anything as efficient as their Western counterparts, nor offer enough tech support and spares for their programs, of course that could change if they started to sell more aircraft.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4897 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5068 times:

In a word no.

Even though Russia today is totally different than it was 10/20 years ago there are still too many unknowns in terms how how big businesses (such as aircraft manufacturing) operate. Airlines are already very sensitive to fluctuations in oil prices and global political tensions. They don't need any more unknowns. As we know in Russia today, despite the facade of a western style democracy the Kremlin still very much calls the shots in many ways. Given the lack of transparency and inadequate assurances from the Kremlin there is almost no chance of this ever happening.

It's kind of a shame some of the Russian birds are marvelous. The Tu204 would look positively sexy in a number of western liveries.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

Some European carriers are seriously considering the Sukhoi Super jet-100 as a new regional jet. AFAIK, several Western aviation equipment manufactures were involved in the design of the Sjet which may entice some airlines to add this "Russian built" aircraft to their fleets.

An Italian carrier has already placed an order and some other like Malev are expected to do the same. Also some big players like LH and KL/AF have expressed interest in the Sjet.

Malev is already having some issues with ordering the Sjet. The newly privatized Hungarian carrier is facing stiff opposition from its pilots who do not want a Russian aircraft in the fleet. This is a not a big surprise given Hungary’s history and the palpable anti-Russian sentiment alive in some ex-Warsaw pact countries.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3966 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5066 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
If Russia built an airplane with WESTERN engines and WESTERN avionics, and the plane could prove to be as efficient as its Western competition, then I think there would be much more attraction to buying Russian planes.

The Tu-204-120/220 may fulfill that requirement - Tu-204 frame, with Rolls Royce engines and western avionics. Currently undergoing certification with the JAA.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5062 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
It's kind of a shame some of the Russian birds are marvelous. The Tu204 would look positively sexy in a number of western liveries.



Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
In a word no.

Even though Russia today is totally different than it was 10/20 years ago there are still too many unknowns in terms how how big businesses (such as aircraft manufacturing) operate. Airlines are already very sensitive to fluctuations in oil prices and global political tensions. They don't need any more unknowns. As we know in Russia today, despite the facade of a western style democracy the Kremlin still very much calls the shots in many ways. Given the lack of transparency and inadequate assurances from the Kremlin there is almost no chance of this ever happening.

You couldn't be more correct in my opinion!  checkmark 

Quoting YOWza (Reply 11):
It's kind of a shame some of the Russian birds are marvelous. The Tu204 would look positively sexy in a number of western liveries.

Once again, spot on!  highfive 



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

No offense, but I have impression that many A.netters have no actual knowledge about business situation in Russia.
Most people just repeat newspapers stamps: corruption, back to Soviet style economy.

Do you really think there is less corruption in Brazil ? You've probably never been to Brazil then.
Or hi-rank corruption in Japan?

This way or other but automakers made up their minds and opened plants: Toyota, VW, BMW, Mitsubishi - just to call a few.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6924 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4937 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 15):
No offense, but I have impression that many A.netters have no actual knowledge about business situation in Russia.
Most people just repeat newspapers stamps: corruption, back to Soviet style economy.

This is certainly a valid point, but when (from our perspective) the owner of the largest company in Russia gets thrown in jail for what appears to us on the outside to be trumped up and political charges because he dared to stand up and oppose the leadership, and that company then essentially gets confiscated by the government, it does make any outsider (and many insiders as well, I'm sure) question how much he wants to risk in such an environment. Of course, we don't know a lot about the situation; the individual involved could have been as corrupt as the day is long (or more so), but that did not appear to be why he was taken down. This goes way beyond the type of corruption which you correctly state exists in Japan and Brazil, to quote your examples.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineWilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4906 times:

There is so much more involved than just selling an airframe. Russian companies fair or not have a reputation of not being reliable or on time. If an airline signs a contract for a fifty aircraft and scheduled five to arrive on the property per month chances are the airline may get one aircraft one month and seven aircraft the next . Then there is the tech support aspect. I willing to bet Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, heck even SAAB give better 24/7 tech support than the two larger Russian aircraft builders. And if you think thats not an issue,there is a reason alot of the Russian companies of all industries are partnering with western companies.

Its not about Russian planes looking "neat". Its about the business of running an airline and having a vendor/supplier thats reliable.


User currently offlineHypersonic From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

Just wanted to say a big Thankyou to all the posters, for your Insights for far.
They have made for very informative reading!!!
Excellent! - I'm glad i renewed my A.net membership  Wink
Hyper


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4897 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4767 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 15):
No offense, but I have impression that many A.netters have no actual knowledge about business situation in Russia.
Most people just repeat newspapers stamps: corruption, back to Soviet style economy.

Do you really think there is less corruption in Brazil ? You've probably never been to Brazil then.
Or hi-rank corruption in Japan?

This way or other but automakers made up their minds and opened plants: Toyota, VW, BMW, Mitsubishi - just to call a few.

I understand your defensive stance regarding some views expressed here, including mine. As far as regurgitating what is disseminated in the press, may I just say that I flatly give all media coverage no credibility till I have a chance to dig a little deeper myself.

The hesitation for western carriers does not originate from a fear of corruption. Corruption in its various forms is ubiquitous. Brazil, Japan, Canada (ahem Karlheinz Schreiber ahem) and anywhere else where money changes hands. The distinguishing factor is the means by which it is fought, controlled and reported. A lack of transparency in financial reporting, general business protocols and the like are the deal breaker here. If say Tupolev won a contract the replace all of AA's 757s with Tu204s the deposits for all the aircraft would result in a huge sum of money. A sum of money very view carriers would feel comfortable releasing without the accounting standards prevalent in the west. I realize with the sub-prime fiasco and monumental acts of white collar crime that have taken place in the west in recent years this seems to smack of incredible hypocrisy. Unfortunately one must realize that these massive scandals have occurred here despite numerous rigid controls already in place. These controls that failed here are not yet adopted across the board in Russia and certainly not by the aircraft manufactures. The general distrust of corporations in the west just makes it that much harder a sell.

As for automakers (Toyota, VW, BMW, Mitsubishi) creating plants in Russia that is NOT the same thing. After all those companies are all publicly traded on exchanges where every last detail can and will be audited. Those companies are all accountable to their shareholders and to the accounting and transparency standards of their OWN countries, not to Russia. Moving manufacturing to locations with cheaper labor is by no means an endorsement of a country's business credibility. Consider that Audis are made in India and Egypt too, does that in any way make them more fit to sell and support jet sales to the west?

Beyond all these things that make sense on paper, there is still perception to deal with. If Russia keeps pushing the buttons of western carriers in an effort to jockey for political position ultimately this will only hurt Russian manufacturers. Right now cutting LH Cargo's right to overfly Russian airspace and demanding they set up shop are the only cards they have to play. What happens then if LH decide to replace their regional fleet with Russian regional jets and Moscow decides it's time to send a message and withhold parts? It's not that big a leap to make and it's enough to sour any chance of LH ever looking east for airframes.

This is the sad, but true status quo.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineCingularity From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4691 times:



Quoting Pylon101 (Reply 8):
The future of the Russian aviation industry is not clear for Russians themselves. The government is trying to establish ONE center for designing civil aircraft. But it is hard as TU and IL and YAK - they have great specialists but deeply oppose to the decision made by the government and signed by president Putin.

It already happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Aircraft_Building_Corporation
I proposed a similar structure to the Russian government back in the 1997, but I called it "Aviat". I think Aviat sounds much better than "United Aircraft Building Corporation". Then again, the Russians would have had to purchase that name from a small US manufacturer.
In my proposal, all the major design OKBs were combined with all the different major production companies. Part of the proposal included a new division called AviaKorps which dealt exclusively with post-sales service and support. That is one area that has prevented the Russians from being able to sell it's planes.
My proposal also called for the integration of Progress ZMKB, Aviadvigatel, Perm Motors, and MMPP Salut into a division of Aviat called AviaProgress.
Both Russian avionics companies (Avianika and AviaAvtomatika) were combined, in my proposal, to form AviaAssist.
The Russian government, in 1997, laughed at my proposal. Ten years later, it partly comes true.



Aviat & AviaProgress only exist in my head. A flight of fantasy.
User currently offlineTrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3238 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

As far as I remember, the IL96-300 actually has a flightcrew of 3. The later IL96M, which was intended as a Westernised version and the IL96-400, which was the version refitted with Russian avionics and the like, have provisions for 2 crew.

As many have said, the issue of buying a fleet extends well beyond having a jetliner in the airline's livery flying from here to there. It is all about ease of financing, schedules of delivery, on-going support and the like. Additionally, the old stereotype about Russian planes and their safety remains strong in the minds of many. While us on this board are prepared to think out of the box and consider flying a wide range of types many in the general public do not share this line of thought.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4619 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
If Russia built an airplane with WESTERN engines and WESTERN avionics, and the plane could prove to be as efficient as its Western competition,

The Tu-204 is offered with such, and both the Tu-204 and -334 and the IL96 are western avionics.

That being said, the Perm motors are fantastic.

Russian airframers don't deliver the product after you order it. Its that simple.

NS


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13154 posts, RR: 100
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3874 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting William (Reply 17):
There is so much more involved than just selling an airframe. Russian companies fair or not have a reputation of not being reliable or on time. If an airline signs a contract for a fifty aircraft and scheduled five to arrive on the property per month chances are the airline may get one aircraft one month and seven aircraft the next . Then there is the tech support aspect. I willing to bet Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, heck even SAAB give better 24/7 tech support than the two larger Russian aircraft builders. And if you think thats not an issue,there is a reason alot of the Russian companies of all industries are partnering with western companies.

That sums it up. There is an old phrase, "you have to buy the horse from the Russian twice." If you buy aircraft from anyone else, they will deliver, support, and upgrade the aircraft per contract in a low cost "just in time" fashion. As others already noted, it doesn't help to receive a large patch of parts after a shortage.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 19):
A lack of transparency in financial reporting, general business protocols and the like are the deal breaker here.

And that is the big issues. Its not corruption per se, its the inability to do anything about it.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

I think it doesn't make sense to talk politics on this site.
Politics is not what brought us all here and keeps united (to some extend).

Cingularity, I completely agree with you. And I had this idea a decade ago too.

To discuss present Russian civil aircraft and tech support (which is really a very good point) is senseless.

What I was trying to say was about future.

A nation of 140 million people - not associated with the West - possibly can not produce all kids of aircraft how it was in the past.

And let me repeat myself: Russia remains the only country in the world (after Airbus won US tender for tankers) that produces ALL MILITARY EQUIPMENT - from soldier's boots - to fighters, missiles and own GPS system (two dozens of satellites). Which is not good at all - but determined by today's geopolitical position of the country between NATO, Mid East region and China.

Moreover, in military sector Sukhoi is in direct competition with MIG (sector of military ac) and KA competes with MI(sector of helicopters). It's crazy, isn't it?

To concentrate resources on making 1-2 civil aircraft in one (possibly two) segment or sub-segments would be more than enough IMHO.


25 Abrelosojos : = I am sorry ... but I find this post extremely condescending. Bring on competition. It is always healthy for the majority of people involved. Cheers
26 BAW716 : I certainly do not know how business is done in Russia, which is why I haven't commented on this thread...until now. Pylon101's point is spot on...wh
27 Abrelosojos : = Excellent point. In some countries, it has glamorous names such as "lobbying", "expense accounts", etc., while in others its simply called "corrupt
28 Post contains links WhynotTu204 : You cannot be serious... Not sure when Russia flew its bombers into other peoples ...ships, however please refer to the following link http://archive
29 Pylon101 : Regarding Embraer and RRJ I used to ask: show me 10 differencies between ERJ-170 and RRJ. Guys, you can't be serious. It's Boeing technology and Boein
30 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : No. It has very little Boeing technology actually. Most of what Boeing is helping with is maintenance manuals, parts supply chain, and the logistics
31 BWE320 : That is because Brazil is a reliable trade partner. They built up trust. If you buy a russian plane you cannot be sure what happens next. Will they d
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Will Air India Ever Buy New B747/A380 posted Thu Nov 10 2005 19:40:29 by Aseem
Will This Plane Ever Make It In The U.S? posted Thu Apr 28 2005 00:40:20 by Alberchico
Will Midway Airlines Ever Fly Again? posted Thu Feb 26 2004 23:23:33 by MainRunway
SQ And QR To Buy B 773ERs In Bulk posted Wed Nov 19 2003 04:41:15 by Behramjee
Will Now Airlines ever really get off the ground? posted Fri Oct 3 2003 18:32:50 by Manairport
Will Major Airlines Ever Aquire Old A/c Again? posted Thu Aug 21 2003 22:13:51 by Chicago757
Will American Airlines Ever Change Their Livery? posted Mon Jul 22 2002 03:48:24 by Brianhames
Will Air Canada Ever Have PTV's In Economy? posted Thu Jun 28 2001 16:05:34 by SafeFlyer
Will American Airlines Ever Get The B 747-400? posted Mon Oct 16 2000 06:42:07 by United Airline
Russian Planes In Major Western Airlines? posted Tue May 24 2005 14:35:56 by TP727