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US West Pilots To Negioate Separate Contract  
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4304 posts, RR: 6
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

No surprise here, the West Pilots seem fed up with the East Pilots and both groups inability to come together. So now they are going to try to negotiate a separate contract for the West. This wouldn't be an issue if the East pilots had just accepted the mediators ruling on the seniority issue.

This development could throw a monkey wrench into the USAPA drive that is being led by the east pilots to breakaway from ALPA over the issue. But I don't see how USAPA can come online without the support of the west pilots.

One other interesting point in the press release regards the A330 flying. If somehow they reach an agreement on this without east pilots coming on board, this could really complicate the situation and allow West pilots to fly the A330 with the East pilots being left in the dark. (Highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened.)

Here is a link to the press release from ALPA on the subject. They are also saying that not putting aside differences is only helping management and is actually hurting the pilots.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080314/clf015.html?.v=101

[Edited 2008-03-14 05:43:18]

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWhappeh From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2784 times:

Does anyone know what was the mediators ruling in regards to seniority and how it would be worked out?


-Travel now, journey infinitely.
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2753 times:



Quoting Whappeh (Reply 1):
Does anyone know what was the mediators ruling in regards to seniority and how it would be worked out?

My understanding was (and I could be totally off base) that the A330 captains were at the top of the list. Then, the 767/757 captains were equals. Then, A321/A320/A319 captains (at both carriers, HP and US) were equals. Then, the 734/733 captains, E90 captains, and then the FOs.

The problem with this arrangement was, according to the US (East) pilots, that US pilots with many years of seniority/experience (not to mention those who had been bumped down to FO, booted over to US Airways Express, or furloughed over the years due to US's bankruptcies) would now be equal (or junior!) to HP pilots who were much younger and hadn't had as much experience in the cockpit. Basically, in an industry where seniority means everything, theirs was being flushed down the toilet.

HP (West) pilots (justifiably so) responded that it wasn't their fault that a) their company was much smaller, and therefore, it was easier and quicker to move up through the ranks; or b) their company had been better managed (albeit arguably only in the last couple of years or so) and had managed to avoid furloughing/demoting pilots.

So, in a nutshell, it was, do you treat the HP pilots fairly at the expense of the US pilots by going by current position and type of aircraft flown, basically erasing the US pilots' seniority, or, do you treat the US pilots fairly at the expense of the HP pilots by going strictly by date-of-hire and effectively "stapling" many HP pilots to the bottom of the list (by virtue of the fact that their company is younger and newer), and basically punish the employees of the company that rescued US from liquidation. The mediators decided in favor of HP and thus US' pilot union is the angry mob you see today.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

and the us pilots have every right to be pissed. and america west dd not save usairways !! we saved eachother.

User currently offlineWhappeh From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

I hardly understand the argument against straight lack of seniority. Every US East pilot I know is with in 5 years of the mandatory retirement date. They had to wait their turn (up to 30 years) of flying the small stuff, no reason why anyone else should get the ability to jump ahead, regardless of the situation. Plus, most US East big pilots will be gone soon anyway, and straight seniority + Max Aircraft type rated would leave some openings for US West to move in.

Just my opinion from an outsider looking in.



-Travel now, journey infinitely.
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2641 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 3):
and the us pilots have every right to be pissed. and america west dd not save usairways !! we saved eachother.

I definitely think your in the minority here. Not to mention the fact that America West bought US Airways. I know you have your allegiance to US, but they aren't exactly the sparkling gem of the industry. West pilots hate east pilots, wholly owned express carriers hate east pilots, I'm sure many other airline pilots hate east pilots. Does this mean each and every pilot, of course not. But this whole debacle is not winning the east pilots any points with anyone. Not to mention mainline east is refusing to have a true flow-through with a couple certain wholly-owneds based in the east and also won't allow one of these carriers to get the new turboprops it needs(or is making it very difficult to do so).



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2611 times:



Quoting Apodino (Thread starter):
One other interesting point in the press release regards the A330 flying. If somehow they reach an agreement on this without east pilots coming on board, this could really complicate the situation and allow West pilots to fly the A330 with the East pilots being left in the dark. (Highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened.)

It looks as though in this case that if management wants to negotiate with the HP pilot group, they can do so but only on the A332, while US pilots will still be the ones flying the A333. Or, would this be a case of HP pilots being able to upgrade to the A333 as soon as openings become available (i.e., when US A333 pilots retire)?



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2154 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2591 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 5):
Not to mention mainline east is refusing to have a true flow-through with a couple certain wholly-owneds based in the east and also won't allow one of these carriers to get the new turboprops it needs(or is making it very difficult to do so).

You don't think demanding full pension restoration is a fair trade for scope relief? It's not like they allow other carriers to fly 70 or 86 seat jets, why should they allow someone to fly 70 seat props? Oh wait, nevermind.


User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2531 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 5):
Not to mention mainline east is refusing to have a true flow-through with a couple certain wholly-owneds based in the east and also won't allow one of these carriers to get the new turboprops it needs(or is making it very difficult to do so).

I really hope they don't give up the scope.


User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2516 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 5):

here we go again with the who bought whom. no one bough no one. it was a merger. hp did not have any money to buy usairways . if you want to get technical about it. usairways former ceo bruce lakefield arranged the transaction. he lined up outside investors to pour cash into this merger. you guys really need to get your facts straight and stop believing what you want to beleive.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2357 times:

Correct. And US East continues to be the profit center for the airline. Former HP loses money and former US makes money. Pretty much that simple.

America West pilots did not sacrifice a penny to become merged with US East. They should be very grateful it happened.

But all that aside... the US pilots need to accept the ruling of ALPA. Otherwise, the pilots have no credibility. Even if they form a breakaway union, it will be known as a union of weasels and liars who won't keep their word. What good is negotiating when you don't keep your word? That is exactly what US East pilots are realizing.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6517 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2330 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 9):
here we go again with the who bought whom. no one bough no one. it was a merger. hp did not have any money to buy usairways . if you want to get technical about it. usairways former ceo bruce lakefield arranged the transaction. he lined up outside investors to pour cash into this merger. you guys really need to get your facts straight and stop believing what you want to beleive.




I think you are a bit of a dreamer if you do not think HP bought, or purchased US Air. Up to now there has never been a merger in the US airline industry and this includes Delta/Western, Northwest/Rebublic, TWA/Ozark, American/TWA,, Delta/Northeast, etc. The proposed Delta/Northwest deal could be a merger as both are roughly equal in financial resources and strength. Supposedly the deal will be a straight stock swap with the current DL shareholders holding about 55% of the new company and the current Northwest stockholders about 45% of the new company,


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2295 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 11):
I think you are a bit of a dreamer if you do not think HP bought, or purchased US Air.

I think he was saying that HP did not deploy its own finances (of which it had none) to buy US. Instead, HP was turned into a marionette by a variety of bankers. The HP marionette then purchased US for nothing, using a large amount of investment bank cash to begin assimilating the two airlines together.

New i-bankers took a big cut for the merger which was really their project. HP was hired by the i-bankers to govern the new, merged carrier. I do not know the ownership percentages at this time. But HP's old owners are not necessarily in control of the new, enlarged firm.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2232 times:



Quoting Etops1 (Reply 3):
and the us pilots have every right to be pissed. and america west dd not save usairways !! we saved eachother.

A) Bullshit.
B) Congratulations, regardless of a, you're going to destroy both companies

Yay union mentality. If you don't win, nobody does! Hooray America!

NS


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