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AirTran To Start MKE-DCA  
User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1143 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

I apologize in advance if this has already has been posted, but I couldn't find a thread. Anyway, the DCA slot goes to MKE instead of JAX. Service begins May 3. http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix...-newsArticle&ID=1119157&highlight=


If Your not pissed, your not trying
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

One afternoon flight MKE-DCA is not going to be competitive. The better alternative might be to offer several MKE-IAD flights since YX no longer flies to IAD, and there is at least some unique market at IAD.


TLH
User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1143 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
One afternoon flight MKE-DCA is not going to be competitive. The better alternative might be to offer several MKE-IAD flights since YX no longer flies to IAD, and there is at least some unique market at IAD.

I agree with what you are saying, but for FL, that wouldn't be "competitive" to go to IAD . YX and FL are really going at each other any way they can these days though, with the T&B agreement ending, and now this.

[Edited 2008-03-17 19:17:50]

[Edited 2008-03-17 19:18:11]


If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2687 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4786 times:



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
One afternoon flight MKE-DCA is not going to be competitive.

Agreed. They should take an early morning slot from another service (if they can), and make it 2x daily to be at least a little more competitive.


User currently offlineDavidlc3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4698 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 3):
Agreed. They should take an early morning slot from another service (if they can), and make it 2x daily to be at least a little more competitive.

Agreed that would be a very competitive strike. But I honestly think they are fighting a losing (money losing that is) battle. The folks in MKE are FIERCLEY loyal to YX and for good reason - they've spent nearly 20 years building that support. .. if they can fend off NWA (2002'ish) they can surely fend off FL.

I haven't read the local MKE paper in a while but I'm certain some crack pot journalist has written an article or two about how FL does this sort of thing (go into a market, fight to losen the noose then bolt) on a regular basis...as a frequent flier this would keep me from jumping ship to a new entrant.


User currently offlineRuuxxv From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4692 times:

AirTran's MKE-DCA service is seasonal. Discontinues in early September.

User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4693 times:



Quoting Davidlc3 (Reply 4):
I haven't read the local MKE paper in a while but I'm certain some crack pot journalist has written an article or two about how FL does this sort of thing (go into a market, fight to losen the noose then bolt)

Vast oversimplification of various P2P route failures versus what FL management sees as a major need for another hub in the Midwest.



TLH
User currently offlineRuuxxv From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4684 times:



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 6):
Vast oversimplification of various P2P route failures versus what FL management sees as a major need for another hub in the Midwest.

Just like Chicago - Midway...


User currently offlineDavidlc3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4675 times:



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 6):
Vast oversimplification of various P2P route failures versus what FL management sees as a major need for another hub in the Midwest.

Could not agree with you more...but let's look at FL's history...we can start with DFW if you like...they came here with big fan fare..planning 40+ flights a day.. launched LAS, LAX, BWI...within a year all were gone and they were back to their basic service.

Same story has played out around the nation. FL is a good airline but they can't seem to figure out where to fly their jets and they are quick to retreat which is a good and a bad thing.

I just think that the folks in MKE (I worked for YX for a while so I speak from the heart) are not apt to jump especially if they know the new guy has a history of love'em and leav'em..


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

As long as Midwest matches the low prices, why would anyone fly AirTran? The right move is for YX to up-gauge the route, soaking up the increased traffic from the fare war.

That way, FL doesn't even have crumbs.


User currently offlineMikey711MN From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1399 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4596 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
As long as Midwest matches the low prices, why would anyone fly AirTran? The right move is for YX to up-gauge the route, soaking up the increased traffic from the fare war.

Up-gauge with what? To fill a Skywest RJ with leisure fare-paying travelers at $110 barrel oil? Otherwise, what mainline service does YX pull down to do this?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
That way, FL doesn't even have crumbs.

Because fighting for market share at the expense of profit has always proven to be a winner in the airline industry.  Wink  Wink  Wink

In all seriousness, what FL is trying to do is clear: in lieu of more planes on the property, they're trying to see where YX won't pull down service and, subsequently, will go after those markets with the excessive fleet that they have at their disposal. If I had a guess, YX is stretched pretty thinly with those west coast runs, so they may concede these "half-transcons" to FL to shore up their bread-and-butter business routes currently being flirted with.

By the way, Davidlc3, welcome to the party! The YX-FL pool has been warm for a long time, but there's plenty of room for more! (seriously, peruse the archived threads about the merger, past new route announcements, etc. for the cast of characters that keep up with these things like they're religion...present company included)

-Mike



I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4416 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Ruuxxv (Reply 5):
AirTran's MKE-DCA service is seasonal. Discontinues in early September.

HAHAHA.


User currently offlineDavidlc3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 4502 times:



Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 10):
welcome to the party!

Thanks Mike!

I've been an intrigued bystander long enough...finally decided to chime in. As I said in an earlier post I worked from YX for a while and understand their culture and their customers fairly well.

I think FL will do "okay" in the market but I truly doubt they have the stick-to-it-ness to really make an impact.


User currently offlineN917ME From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4475 times:



Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
One afternoon flight MKE-DCA is not going to be competitive.

Correct. What is even worse is for all those passengers who FL convinces to try FL, and then the flight takes a long MX delay or canx. Then those passengers will be up shit creek without a paddle as FL will not be able to 120.20/invol rert their passengers. At least YX has mulitple options.


User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4427 times:

This will be an interesting summer '08 to be watching on the sidelines. FL is saying "seasonal" for almost all their MKE expansion right now. I guess that gives them an easy out when the going gets rough. YX will defend MKE at all costs.... NWA made a huge mistake when they saw weakness in YX during the really lean years, when YX was teetering on bankruptcy. Instead NWA had to file bankruptcy and YX was able to crawl out of their financial hole. Granted, FL is much more financially sound but I don't believe they have the stomach to sustain any kind of loss to win over MKE pax which are very loyal to YX. This won't happen over night for sure... it will take years to accomplish. I hope sucess for both airlines... there is room for both at MKE.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6623 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4407 times:



Quoting Ruuxxv (Reply 5):
AirTran's MKE-DCA service is seasonal. Discontinues in early September.

This will be a problem for FL as these DCA slots are "use or lose" and intended for year-round use. If they only run the route seasonally, you can expect other carriers to protest. The only chance FL might have to get away with this is to shift the route to a Florida route for the winter months....but even that could be protested.

I'm usually supportive of FL's management, but this route is a waste. 1x daily on DCA-MKE isn't going to make money. I said it at the time of issuance and I'll say it again, the DOT wasted a DCA slot with this award.


User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4362 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
This will be a problem for FL as these DCA slots are "use or lose" and intended for year-round use. If they only run the route seasonally, you can expect other carriers to protest. The only chance FL might have to get away with this is to shift the route to a Florida route for the winter months....but even that could be protested.

I'm usually supportive of FL's management, but this route is a waste. 1x daily on DCA-MKE isn't going to make money. I said it at the time of issuance and I'll say it again, the DOT wasted a DCA slot with this award.

The DOT awarded the slot to FL knowing they intended to use it for MKE or JAX.


User currently offlineDavidlc3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4296 times:



Quoting MKENut (Reply 14):
MKE pax which are very loyal to YX.

I have had the privilege of working for 10 - 12 different airlines in various capacities and must admit - the loyalty to YX is the strongest I have ever encountered...but YX has worked hard to earn and maintain that loyalty.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6491 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4288 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
As long as Midwest matches the low prices, why would anyone fly AirTran?

XM

Does YX have XM. I'd take XM over fresh baked cookies.



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6623 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4245 times:



Quoting MKENut (Reply 16):
The DOT awarded the slot to FL knowing they intended to use it for MKE or JAX.

Yes, but as of right now, FL is only scheduled to use the slot for summer service on MKE-DCA. If they then shift it over to JAX for the winter months, they might still get to keep the slot. If not, the slot can be stripped from them. But honestly, even shifting it over to JAX for the winter is still a money losing proposition.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7553 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4242 times:



Quoting Davidlc3 (Reply 4):
Agreed that would be a very competitive strike. But I honestly think they are fighting a losing (money losing that is) battle. The folks in MKE are FIERCLEY loyal to YX and for good reason - they've spent nearly 20 years building that support. .. if they can fend off NWA (2002'ish) they can surely fend off FL.

YX didn't really fend off NW, they dropped the routes after entering BK because they were getting rid of planes and found even more profitable routes elsewhere. NW has quite a large following in MKE.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4219 times:



Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 18):
Does YX have XM. I'd take XM over fresh baked cookies.

I take my portable XM with recorded songs on YX and get both.


User currently offlineDavidlc3 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4157 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 20):
found even more profitable routes elsewhere

If they had been successful then the MKE routes would have remained...bottom line they were not able to get enough high $ traffic away from YX.

Yes NWA does have a good following in MKE (didn't they mini-hub there pre-YX?) - even used to fly DC10s out of there...but, as is the case with FL, their on-again-off-again affair with MKE has hurt their reputation.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4146 times:



Quoting Davidlc3 (Reply 22):
Yes NWA does have a good following in MKE (didn't they mini-hub there pre-YX?) - even used to fly DC10s out of there...but, as is the case with FL, their on-again-off-again affair with MKE has hurt their reputation.

I would not go that far. MKE is still a very strong supporter of NW. I don't think its reputation has been hurt at all. There are more elites out of MKE than any comparable market. It even has a World Club. There has always been tremendous loyalty developed over the years through both NW and Republic/North Central. Remember, NW and RC were big here beffore YX was even thought of.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4115 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 19):
But honestly, even shifting it over to JAX for the winter is still a money losing proposition.

I don't feel like JAX is far enough south to be a 'seasonal Florida' market; if JAX can support a flight to DCA in the winter, it can probably do so in the summer as well. If the flight would be a money loser in the summer, it probably will also be in the winter. (FWIW, I'd say the same thing about your home airport.)



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 FlyPNS1 : I agree. JAX is not a traditional "seasonal Florida" market which is why I think FL would fail miserably if they try and treat it that way. But even
26 TVNWZ : From what I can determine, that word to Airtran does not necessaarily conform to the seasons. I think it just means, "We'll fly it when we want."
27 Post contains images Cubsrule : ...all the way up to 5x right now. US does fairly well at JAX; when the new terminal is open, a PHX flight or two might be in the cards. Well said.
28 CitrusCritter : Didn't want to start a new thread to ask this. Does anyone think we'll see MKE-MIA from FL?
29 MKE22 : I hope so. I think we could because we've already seen them add SAN. I think it would be great to finally have service to MIA. I would rather have YX
30 Post contains images Mke717spotter : Looks like we've officially got the NW in MKE thing goin all over again except this time its FL with a bunch of "seasonal" routes...Oh well I don't th
31 MKENut : Did AA do MKE-MIA in the 80's? I think I flew that route once because there wasn't a good flight from FLL-MKE at the time.
32 TVNWZ : If so, it would probably be "seasonal."
33 Vivavegas : Cool Latin American service from MKE! Honestly I would really question a MIA run, perhaps Sat/Sun service to capture the cruise traffic. Most Milwauk
34 FL1TPA : During the first few months after XM installation it was not very reliable. It was a bit buggy but eventually the major problems were resolved. You'r
35 Cubsrule : AA doesn't have the aircraft. I'd say it indicates that MKE-MIA might do well; AA has a ton of capacity on ORD-MIA and FL still manages to make it wo
36 FlyPNS1 : A few interesting items from the DOT filings: 1) YX filed an appeal (13 page diatribe!!!) that neither FL nor NK had submitted their schedules in time
37 A330323X : But that was for a lottery slot, so there really is no precedent or comparison.
38 MAH4546 : FL is doing MIA-MCI weekend service, and it has done quite well. Unlike other Florida routes, it is operating year-round right through the summer. A
39 FlyPNS1 : Regardless, the DOT has shown a willingness to allow this type of swapping, so there is some precedent. It certainly doesn't guarantee that FL will b
40 Post contains links Knope2001 : No, the DoT has repeatedly denied AirTran's attempts to use these slots in a manner other than how they were awarded. AirTran was awareded in 2003 tw
41 Sideflare75 : I don't know if it's really either childish or a waste of time. It's pretty clear from reading the filing that neither AirTran or Spirit complied wit
42 MKENut : If AirTran takes this slot from MKE to RSW then the DOT should take it away from them... When AirTran applied for the slot they said they would use i
43 FlyPNS1 : But neither example you cite is directly comparable. In the first example of DCA-PBI, FL wanted to simply not use a slot for the season which was cle
44 MKENut : Sorry, I read it wrong. My bad.
45 Cubsrule : Agreed. FWIW, MCI-MIA is a huge hole in AA's route map ex-MIA. I think 2x daily 738 would probably do well. I would guess that it's more about gettin
46 MKE22 : Now that FL has added DCA, what destination will they add next? I think MKE has a strong case for MIA or FLL if FL is really willing to compete with
47 Knope2001 : True, however the DoT also stated that service AirTran proposed when bidding was "materially relied upon" in their decision to grant the slots to Air
48 Legacytravel : I feel that FL is more liked and better received in MKE that NWA. Better chance for FL to pull this off. This is true. So loyal almost to a fault. Bu
49 Post contains images MKENut : I believe the only reason AirTran thinks they can put a dent in Midwest's monopoly on MKE is because they see weakness in Midwest's business model. N
50 N917me : NWA has a very strong large FF base in MKE and I believe a good number of "elite" status FF members. Not really. Many of FL's routes are season and l
51 Cubsrule : Fourth-most in the system, IIRC.
52 Legacytravel : This is true, but I have not heard anything good about NWA in the last 2-3 years at least. They are called Northworst by my clients all the time. The
53 Cubsrule : F is worlds better than Y (though Y is improving...).
54 Post contains images N353SK : Do you mean sweet and happy when FL makes it in CAT III and YX's pax take the bus from MSN? I'm a YX fan, but I can't resist making a little mischief
55 Post contains images MKENut : I noticed on AirTran's route map they are going to rely on connecting traffic for their new seasonal routes out of MKE. I can't wait to see if this is
56 MKE22 : FL has done this many times, only to sometimes extend a route past "seasonal". MKE-BWI started out as seasonal, and is now 2x daily. This just is say
57 Legacytravel : I hope so. I dont think they could have gotten much worse. Mark in MKE
58 Knope2001 : True, although it is rare for AirTran to start a market seasonally and then boost it to year-round. Portland is a big exception. AirTran more commonl
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