Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why No Major U.S. Airline/Cargo Combinations?  
User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

It seems to me that most of the major carriers in Europe and the Orient have cargo franchises to supplement their passenger lines. (JAL Cargo, Lufth Cargo, Air France, KLM, Cathy...need I go on?)

Why don't major U.S. carriers have cargo lines as well. I would think that the freight portion would be a big boost to the losses most airlines here in the United States experience . UPS and FedEx may have SOME impact, but there still could be some MAJOR money to be made. The profits would trickle down to the passenger lines and increase the level of service as well. Seems like a win win situation to me.


757: The last of the best
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

NW has a somewhat large cargo operation. They have a fairly good sized station here in ANC. Also, AS(not sure if you want to call them Major) have a fairly good sized cargo op. They have atleast one Cargo-only plane, and some more on the way if I am not mistaken. And quite a few 734 Combi's.

User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

When I first started with DL in '71, we had a cargo operation built around L-100 freighters and flying to ATL, ORD, MIA, MEM, MSY, EWR, DAL, LAX and SFO. The widebodies, 747/DC10/L1011, started to take most of that cargo, so DL, stating "we're a passenger airline" dropped the cargo service in '73. For many years, after, we tried to convince them of the good of all cargo service, but to no avail. The last best hope was a few years ago when the head of the cargo division came to us from FedEx. He actually took some interest in the idea but then left. The problem has always been that the "chosen ones" were always from passenger service or operations and had no experience or interest in cargo.

There is some current hope, though. Delta Cargo has gone back to being a separate division instead of a department reporting to ACS. The new head of cargo came from UA cargo so at least there is some experience, there.

[Edited 2008-03-18 09:15:50]

[Edited 2008-03-18 09:29:24]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3376 times:



Quoting AS777 (Reply 1):
NW has a somewhat large cargo operation

I believe that all went up for sale when the merger was announced. They are currently in talks with an Asian carrier to sell off all of their planes to them.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3363 times:



Quoting AS777 (Reply 1):
Quoting AS777 (Reply 1):
NW has a somewhat large cargo operation

I believe that all went up for sale when the merger was announced. They are currently in talks with an Asian carrier to sell off all of their planes to them.

Really? I had not heard that. I wonder if the carrier that wbuys them out will still keep their ops here. I work right next to the NW Cargo Ramp, there is always atleast one 747 sitting there, sometimes up to 12(if you count the ramps that Korean and Southern use) if not, then 8 NW cargo planes.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

AS has a substantial cargo operation all over Alaska . . . with 734 Combis and a 734 Freighter . . .

Quoting AS777 (Reply 1):
AS(not sure if you want to call them Major

They are a major player on the West Coast and in Alaska . . . I'd consider them a major. I am biased though.  wink 


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3297 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
UPS and FedEx may have SOME impact

That's an understatement. FedEx alone operates a larger fleet than many passenger airlines.


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

With NW being the exception, just think about all the money to be made. Almost every European Major has large fleets of 747's. Korean has some beautiful 747ER's as well. Just look at the 748 spread. Over 70 frames vs just a few for the pax configuration.

My fear is, if the US carriers don't jump on the bandwagon, the opportunity will be lost.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9823 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3271 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
That's an understatement. FedEx alone operates a larger fleet than many passenger airlines.

Indeed express cargo carriers are no longer only specialized in express/package air cargo but they are now offering worldwide supply chain solutions, including all types of cargo, except for oversized heavy air cargo I think.

A388


User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3248 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Quoting AS777 (Reply 1):
AS(not sure if you want to call them Major

They are a major player on the West Coast and in Alaska . . . I'd consider them a major. I am biased though.

Myself being bias as well, I would also consider them a major, since they are my main link to the "outside" world! However, I reckon some people might not bud.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9823 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3231 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 7):
Almost every European Major has large fleets of 747's.

I think you are overexagerating, no European airline has large fleets of 747s, no one. They all have just a handful of 747 fullfreighters in their fleet. AF may be the only European airline with the largest cargo fleet. LH Cargo also has a larger fleet but it consists of MD11 freighters. Than we have Martinair Cargo which also has a decent MD11 cargo fleet as well as a few 747-400 converted freighters. But than again, Martinair isn't a major European airline. Other than that the amount of fullfreighters with European major airlines is not that big at all.

Quoting Manfredj (Reply 7):
My fear is, if the US carriers don't jump on the bandwagon, the opportunity will be lost.

It is a good question as to why U.S. carriers have not taken all-cargo aircraft but I take it that these airlines have there reasons for not setting up all-cargo operations. Maybe one reason is the amount of competition from all other cargo airlines that makes competing not worthwhile for U.S. major airlines. A lot of cargo of the U.S. major airline may also be carried as palletized belly cargo.

A388


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3213 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):

That's an understatement. FedEx alone operates a larger fleet than many passenger airlines.

Actually the FedEx fleet is larger than any passenger airline in the world. FedEx operates more aircraft than any civilian operator in the world.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3181 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
It seems to me that most of the major carriers in Europe and the Orient have cargo franchises to supplement their passenger lines. (JAL Cargo, Lufth Cargo, Air France, KLM, Cathy...need I go on?)

Why don't major U.S. carriers have cargo lines as well. I would think that the freight portion would be a big boost to the losses most airlines here in the United States experience . UPS and FedEx may have SOME impact, but there still could be some MAJOR money to be made. The profits would trickle down to the passenger lines and increase the level of service as well. Seems like a win win situation to me

Most of the major US carriers used to have dedicated cargo aircraft and healthy cargo divisions. But the cargo business has changed significantly in the US over the past 30-40 years and mainline carriers have found they cannot compete with specialized cargo carriers.

British Airways is now out of the branded, dedicated cargo business. The cargo business certainly did not help Alitalia stay strong. Singapore Airlines is apparently transitioning from dedicated cargo aircraft to wet lease, non-branded aircraft. ANA has gotten out of the cargo business from what I understand.

Unless there are restrictive government regulations in place, I think you will see KLM/ AFR lose their cargo operations before long, though Cathay may spin theirs off first. There are several new cargo only carriers springing up in China/ East Asia.

Lufthansa is also a candidate to drop/ spin off the cargo operation. JAL will probably be the last to leave the cargo business.

The US has many busy cargo carriers besides FDX and UPS and ABX and Astair. Both long haul with B747, DC10/MD11 aircraft and shorter range smaller aircraft carriers.

Cargo is a very competitive, somewhat cut throat, business right now.


User currently offlineJasonMiller From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3160 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
Why don't major U.S. carriers have cargo lines as well. I would think that the freight portion would be a big boost to the losses most airlines here in the United States experience . UPS and FedEx may have SOME impact, but there still could be some MAJOR money to be made. The profits would trickle down to the passenger lines and increase the level of service as well. Seems like a win win situation to me.

Just take a look at this list bellow and tell me can you even add more cargo airlines?

ABX Air
Airnet Express
Atlas Air
Cargo 360
DHL
Evergreen
FedEx
Gemini Air Cargo
Kalitta Air
Kitty Hawk Aircargo
Polar Air Cargo
Southern Air
Tampa Cargo
UPS
World Airways


User currently offlineManfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3141 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 12):
Cargo is a very competitive, somewhat cut throat, business right now.

I didn't know that. With some carriers flying DC-8's, 727's and other pre-historic aircraft, I naturally assumed the freight business was booming, with profits easy to make regardless of fuel prices and airplane layout.



757: The last of the best
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3117 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 14):
With some carriers flying DC-8's, 727's and other pre-historic aircraft, I naturally assumed the freight business was booming, with profits easy to make regardless of fuel prices and airplane layout

Because those aircraft are mostly paid off, they are much, much cheaper to fly than newer more fuel efficient aircraft.

The capital costs of the payments and interest on the newer aircraft make the total cost of operation several times higher than older less fuel efficient birds.


User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1517 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3110 times:



Quoting JasonMiller (Reply 13):
Just take a look at this list bellow and tell me can you even add more cargo airlines?

ABX Air
Airnet Express
Atlas Air
Cargo 360
DHL
Evergreen
FedEx
Gemini Air Cargo
Kalitta Air
Kitty Hawk Aircargo
Polar Air Cargo
Southern Air
Tampa Cargo
UPS
World Airways

Tampa Cargo is not a U.S.Cargo airline. Kitty Hawk has closed down their air cargo division.
You can also add Arrow Cargo, Amerijet, Capital Air Cargo, Focus Air, Ameristar, Pacific Air Cargo,
Centurion Air Cargo among others. If you add prop cargo carriers your list will be quite extensive.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3087 times:



Quoting AS777 (Reply 4):

Really? I had not heard that. I wonder if the carrier that wbuys them out will still keep their ops here. I work right next to the NW Cargo Ramp, there is always atleast one 747 sitting there, sometimes up to 12(if you count the ramps that Korean and Southern use) if not, then 8 NW cargo planes.

I think they were retiring a 742 or two.. I dont think NW would sell thier cargo division. My guess is they probably make a good chunk of money off of it.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1620 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3057 times:



Quoting AS777 (Reply 4):
Really? I had not heard that.

Yeah, neither had I. They are, however, parking some 742s and the DHL contract is going away. Granted, it is becoming harder to compete with companies that can provide seamless door to door transport such as UPS and FedEx, but I hadn't heard that the entire division was being shut down.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3029 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
I believe that all went up for sale when the merger was announced. They are currently in talks with an Asian carrier to sell off all of their planes to them.

A few things wrong with your statement. first, no merger was ever announced between NW Any any other airline. Secondly they are not in discussions with any other airline, Asian or otherwise to sell their freighter fleet. What is your source for that info?


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3021 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
I believe that all went up for sale when the merger was announced. They are currently in talks with an Asian carrier to sell off all of their planes to them.

This is the internet. If you feel the need to speculate, then feel the need to provide evidence. It's right at your fingertips.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2976 times:



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
I believe that all went up for sale when the merger was announced. They are currently in talks with an Asian carrier to sell off all of their planes to them.

Incorrect, the Cargo division isn't up for sale, its a large profit maker. They are selling a few planes due to high fuel costs. They are still looking at what aircraft they want to replace the fleet with.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2917 times:



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 7):
With NW being the exception, just think about all the money to be made. Almost every European Major has large fleets of 747's. Korean has some beautiful 747ER's as well. Just look at the 748 spread. Over 70 frames vs just a few for the pax configuration.

My fear is, if the US carriers don't jump on the bandwagon, the opportunity will be lost.

It's not that the opportunity is lost, it has just been taken over by FedEx and UPS (and, to a lesser extent, DHL). Think: the three largest parcel companies in the world are all based in the US. True, they have operations in Europe, Asia and elsewhere, but not quite the reach they have in the US. The US airlines have enough problems already -- it doesn't make sense for them to put up scarce capital and other resources to go full-fledged against these behemoths.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2901 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
They are a major player on the West Coast and in Alaska . . . I'd consider them a major. I am biased though.   

Alaska Airlines is a major US airline, defined by the DOT as more than $1b in yearly sales.

NS


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2873 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 19):
A few things wrong with your statement. first, no merger was ever announced between NW Any any other airline.

There may have not been an "official" announcement, but, you know as well as I do that they were talking to DL. Otherwise, why would the two pilot groups have been talking? The pilots certainly didn't take it upon themselves to originate any talks; they were inclined to do so after management had started talking.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Bobnwa : It was implied that cargo went up for sale when a proposed merger was announced. I was pointing that neither of those things ever happened.
26 Mayor : Sorry, I read it wrong. I would think that IF a merger went thru, DL would like to get their hands on NW's cargo operation, considering DL's newfound
27 ER757 : I believe they've closed their doors as far as scheduled cargo operations. Back in the 80's, UA had a sizeable fleet of DC8-F's. I am pretty sure it
28 Post contains images Allstarflyer : UA, in the SOC at O'Hare, would have their cargo planners sit in the back of the room figuring weight and balance - it didn't seem like a big part of
29 A388 : I totally disagree here, why would AF/KL and LH drop there all-cargo operations down the line? They are one of the best and most recognized air cargo
30 BlueFlyer : At the same time, they're about to lose their largest single customer by far (DHL) with no prospect of replacing it, so perhaps selling might not be
31 Mayor : I would imagine that even without DHL, NW's cargo is a moneymaker, especially from the Far East. Maybe someone here from NW can tell us one way or ano
32 FlyUSCG : My source is a friend who's company is currently working very closely with said Asian carrier about starting 747 freighter ops. And the Northwest sit
33 RFields5421 : To a great many of the the customers - better = cheaper price Those airlines are fighting to hold on to cargo, but they've also seen half the mainlin
34 Ha763 : Nope. They sold their share in Nippon Cargo, which was a joint venture with NYK, and got their own freighter fleet. They use the 767-300F and is also
35 PanHAM : Who told you that? Lufthansa Cargo is a separate company for quite a while now, but alwys was and surely will be under the umbrella of the parent com
36 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Actually, AF-KLM just introduced a new paperless way of working, they (AF) are launch customer for the B777F which will be used for expansion and the
37 Coal : The same could be said about any other country/region in the world, yet we still see the European and Asian majors with cargo ops. Tampa Cargo is not
38 A388 : I see, now I understand your point. As far as I know the KL/AF Cargo and LH Cargo are already separate Business Units with the airline, meaning that
39 Bobnwa : My sources and Burnsies sources are from within NWA itself. Totally wrong, no 744's have gone to the mod shop. NWA is looking at doing this but has n
40 PanHAM : Among the US passenger airlines Northwest is still No. 1 in freight. with 840 Million US$ revenue and they are No. 2 in FTKs with 2067 Million behind
41 Mayor : DL's same day cargo (flight specific--DASH) is far superior to Southwest, if for no other reason than it is not just point to point. If necessary, DA
42 BlueFlyer : And FedEx/UPS/DHL's same day cargo are fare superior to DL or WN, if only because DL and WN use only DL and WN flights (duh), whereas the three integ
43 Mayor : People might be surprised at how much of the service they get from FedEX, UPS or DHL actually is in the hands of the airlines. At one time, I believe
44 Luv2cattlecall : Is that with or without all the Cessna/small planes?
45 Mayor : If you want to get your package where it's going, in just a few hours, the airlines' product IS superior. It doesn't have to got thru a hub to be sor
46 BlueFlyer : The integrators' same-day service doesn't go through a hub either. In fact, it rarely even uses their own aircraft. What they do is send a courier to
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why No International Airline Mergers posted Fri Dec 15 2006 03:33:22 by Boston92
Why No XX Airline Srvc XXX & XXX posted Mon May 29 2006 05:19:21 by Dtwclipper
Why No Major French LCC's? posted Mon Feb 13 2006 19:05:23 by RootsAir
Why No African Airline In An Alliance? posted Wed Mar 2 2005 10:59:54 by RootsAir
Largest Airport With No Major Airline? posted Tue Feb 22 2005 14:38:44 by BoeingForEver
Why No Major posted Mon Oct 22 2001 03:11:25 by Zeus01
Why No Major Hubs? posted Mon Oct 9 2000 09:50:26 by Thomacf
Why No US Airline Flying SEA-LHR posted Thu Aug 3 2000 16:47:20 by ContinentalEWR
Why No AA Cargo Only Aircraft? posted Sat Jul 28 2007 22:49:52 by JAM747
Why No No Frills Airline Night Flights From UK? posted Sat May 28 2005 12:21:11 by Orion737