Noise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1660 posts, RR: 4 Posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1123 times:
Roots Air will use A330s and 727s on their YYZ-YUL route. It's too bad they are going to use the 727 instead of the A320, who would want to fly those old aircrafts, but I have one question, where are they going to get 727s?
C-GRYK From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 751 posts, RR: 39 Reply 2, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 994 times:
It says on www.rootsair.com that they will have a 727 on YYZ-YUL-YYZ and that's it. I figure they will scrounge one or two up somewhere, there are enough 727's for sale to my knowledge, some with relatively low airframe time besides I think with the Sport Hawk operation, they already have a roster of 727 pilots.
Carioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 970 times:
Try looking at the timetables for YUL-YVR. Notice that those flights not operated by Airbus aircraft are marked with an asterisk. There are several in fact with no mention of what the aircraft type will be.
I have read on other FF boards and various news media sources that in fact 727 service will be used on these routes. Of course....who'd want to broadcast that.
I give them a timeline of 24 months before they are assimilated or out of business. Do I have inside information or airline analysis experience....nope. Just a really great gut instinct that has proven me right many times before.
Samurai 777 From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 2457 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 934 times:
The 727s seem to be just short-term equipment that Roots Air will use until it can get its hands on more A320s, which may be several months or even a year.
Roots Air was cited as having difficulty in acquiring A320s last year. Frankly, I'm not sure if that's such a wise way for a new airline to be marketing itself - with 30 year old a/c while saying it will provide top-notch airline service. An airline like WestJet can get away with it because it is a discount airline. But Roots Air is supposed to be a full service airline, and passengers will expect an airline like that to have newer aircraft. A 727 is not going to attract that many passengers, and I have a feeling that even a hushkitted 727 may run into stricter noise regulations in the near future.
There are also other fishy things about Roots Air, too. I've taken a look at its website, and while it looks nice, it's unusually low on content. Where's the seatmaps? Where's the details on "seamless global travel"? Sounds like it's not having much luck on trying to join any airline alliance.
If Roots Air keeps doing something like that, it's not going to last very long as an airline.
Captaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56 Reply 9, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 909 times:
That would be interesting to see if First Air 727s would be used. I haven't thought of that. It is curious to see a "full service" airline using the 727s, but I would not hesitate to fly on them. I like those old planes. I do agree that it is not a good way to attract customers.
I did see a full page ad in the Post saying Roots Air would start on a certain date, and I forget when that is (Sometime in April or May if my memory serves me correctly). But, I think they they will not last long at all as Roots Air ... maybe C3 will eat them up too???
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
Buff From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 880 times:
There is no question the concept of Roots Air is a gamble. But it is a gamble decided upon by a very good air charter company with a very good attitude towards safety and employee relations, and a popular fashion oriented (read: Yuppie) company.
Business plans don't just happen. They are studied ad nauseum and usually sanctioned by a great many institutions prior to execution.
Roots is looking to serve a niche market. They will probably continue to serve their old SkyService customers and contracts as well. They have hired excellent people and may very well be a force to be reckoned with in 5 years.
The reason I offered the idea of First Air 727's is that 7F is the only Canadian operator I can think of that might be interested in such an alliance.
AirCanadaMan From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 465 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 866 times:
First Air comming into play is possible, but highly unlikley.
First Airs 727's are all combis (except for a few all freighters) why would roots air want such an aircraft?
I have flown on them many a times and although they are great, they dont have a First Class section nor are they equipped with any form of entertainment, judging from Roots Air image, they are an "All-out" airline.
Although thier 727's turn up all over the place (eg:Florida) they are mainly used on the precious Quebec- Nunavut flights delivering precious cargo. Even with a fleet of 3 737M's they can not afford to take a few 727's out of service for a long term lease.
AirCanadaMan From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 465 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 864 times:
Sorry, forgot to add:
First Air asumed the role of NWT air when they bought them out, to remain as an Air Canada Connector. Unless First Air had some wild marketing idea they will stay with AC and not venture into a new startup airline that holds no promise.
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 845 times:
I suspect it will be the Skyservice/Sporthawk 727.
I understand that the 727 will only be used until they can get their additional A320 aircraft, but I'm not so sure this is good strategy: I personally like the 727's, but they promised when they announced themselves they would fly all new Airbuses. Will customers overlook the temporary inconvenience? Or is it wise to start without the promised level of amenities/service???
As to their strategy, I agree entirely with Buff, it's a gamble (emphasis on that) but there is potential for them to survive. I am, however, worried about their lack of forthcoming details on things like partners, and I'm even more worried about several little details about prospective partners, as BA signed interline agreements with Royal, AA jumped into the YYZ-LAX market, QF is codesharing with AA on that route, and over at VS, Branson hadn't even heard of them. So if they can't ally with either VS or Oneworld, who would they partner with? There's certainly others, but having heard RootsAir suggest they'd like to interline with AC, I'm just a little skeptical on this part of their plan. I'm also a little worried about their strategy... I heard somewhere the people behind this are the ones who tried developing CPAir's failed "Attache" business service, and who planned Wardair's run at scheduled flying... That's not to say it won't work, there's many factors in it's favour, but it is nonetheless a gamble.
R347216 From Canada, joined Dec 1999, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 826 times:
I was hoping that" Noise" would share my response that I sent to him with all of you to put a stop to the guessing game. I am an In-flight Manager with Skyservice, therefore, I have some fairly accurate knowledge of what is going on.
Firstly, the reson RootsAir has not announced their parters is due to strategic matters. You will all be pleasantly surprised and you will just have to wait instead of jumping on the negative bandwagon. The partnerships will not be the same as Royal had with code-sharing...any airline can codeshare.
Secondly, C-GRYK had a good guess about the 727. RootsAir will ONLY use the 727 until or if the A-320 is not ready for the launch date. In the future, the A-330's will NOT be used for the route that Noise described, it will be operated by the A-320's.
Not many people realize that Sporthawk International is owned and operated by Skyservice and is the Flagship airline of the Toronto Raptors, Toronto Maple Leafs, Buffalo Sabres, Ottawa Senators, Toronto Blue Jays and other teams. I have had the opportunity to work on the sport flights, and the rare occasion to operate the odd sport flight on the A-320; the players all prefer the B-727! Believe me the Sporthawk B-727 is luxury, as you can imagine, it's clientele would desire it to be. I did question if RootsAir will provide the same sort of luxury as the Sporthawk for passengers that may be on a 727 initially. The answer is yes and I am sure that a discerning business traveller would much rather fly in luxury on an extremely well maintained B-727 instead of a charter capacity A-320. And if it comes from Greyhound, it will still be overhauled according to the RootsAir specifics. Lets' not forget, how old are the A-310's that C-3 are getting????? The one Royal has was owned by Wardair.
AND- by the way the Skyservice/RootsAir creative marketing and management team are not the same people behind the Attache or Wardair schedule flying. A lot of our Skyservicie's upper management comes from Wardair, and I am proud of this fact. They never made Wardair go bye-bye, but they did bring some calss with them when they joined Skyservice.
All I can say, is keep visiting the RootsAir web- site, don't be too quick to rain on the parade yet, because the parade hasn't even began to get started. You will see!! Read the article posted in Ottawa's Globe and Mail last week about RootsAir. Don't forget that the current # 2 "Scheduled Carrier" will not alter their seating capacity and will not be able to offer the same services to business travellers. So, seamless as seamless will be folks!! Ciao for now!
AC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 804 times:
...but wasn't Shetzen one of the guys who oversaw Attache???
As far as Wardair goes, I also view that as a positive, but I've heard negative comments on that too, so until I think we have to be cautious on this one. Wardair had great people, but ran into problems. And don't forget that one of the MAJOR problems with Wardair was the lack of regional feed - which could play a role in RootsAir success/failure. I believe the market has changed, and the lack of feeder network may not damage them too much in this market now, but still, it's a concern.
Although I can understand these "strategic purposes" for not yet announcing partners, the airline is now selling seats, so it's got to be getting close to time to show this stuff up. Also, from what I've heard Roots has been talking "interline" rather than codeshare, which concerns me as interlining is a less comprehensive partnership.
One other thing I don't understand: why not reconfigure one of the SSV 320's for RootsAir and downgrade the 727 for those low-yield charter passengers until additional 320's arrive??? Although that reconfiguration would cost, passengers would prefer to see the promised all-Airbus fleet, not a fill-in, from the start.
As I said before, I wish RootsAir good luck, and I actually do believe they have a decent chance of success, but it is still a fairly big gamble and there's lots of stumbling blocks they could run into. It's a big risk, which is why I reserve a lot of skepticism on this, but certainly it could pay off big for them, too.
R347216 From Canada, joined Dec 1999, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 796 times:
Sorry AC183, I caught my mistake, Rootsair will be Interline, not codeshare. I meant to write "anyone can codeshare". We already have an interline number, this can be found through travel agents. Maybe you want to check the number with your local travel agent. As far as strategy, bear in mind that all eyes are on us from our future competition. I think that in the next few weeks you will notice a lot more advertising and press releases that will answer the question "Who are their partners"? I am pretty happy with what I hear, as I am looking forward to receiving interline passes on some of these MAJOR carriers! I have always fancied a vacation to the Far East or Australia, Paris looks good, Spain and London too. (clues) As for Shetzen, yes Ted is with us, but so is Leo Derochers and he brings a wealth of knowledge from his days at Air Canada. Given the fact that SSV is obligated to use it's current fleet of A-320's for Skyservice charter flights, which will continue to operate daily; they are not at liberty to use the fleet, especially due to the configuration - 180 seats, as opposed to the planned 132 for RootsAir. I don't think a business executive would pay for that type of configuration. The 727 is ONLY to be used as a back up if the 320 is not ready. The flight attendant uniforms are awesome. We receive them at the end of this month, very cool indeed. I'll be in touch on line soon. Ciao for now Rootsgirl.