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NWA Pilots Try To Keep Merger Plus Cutbacks?  
User currently offlineXbraniffone From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 80 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7487 times:

From Minneapolis Star Trib.

http://www.startribune.com/business/16802001.html


"Northwest Airlines pilot leaders signaled late Tuesday that they are attempting to keep a merger deal alive with Delta Air Lines.

In a memo to Northwest pilots, union officers expressed support for "expedited arbitration" as a way to resolve their seniority integration conflict with Delta pilots."


Plus.......


"We have a thorough review underway of our capacity right now, with a particularly hard look at domestic" flying, Davis said. In January, Northwest indicated that it would shrink domestic capacity by 5.5 to 6.5 percent this year. But Northwest CEO Doug Steenland said Sunday that, after the big jump in oil prices, "We have to rethink the size of the airline we operate."


DC3 8 9 10, 1011, BAC111, 707 720 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 320 330 340
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7659 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7374 times:

A lot of that capacity reduction is occuring through the shift from 100 seat DC-9-30 flying over to the 76-seat E-175 and CRJ-900 flying at Compass & Mesaba.

Capacity is supposed to stay flat year-over-year from now through the end of August. The summer travel season is still looking to be very strong but they are planning for a steeper than normal decline going into the fall. Right now NW is evaluating the capacity for the balance of the year from Sept-December. It appears as if they there may be significant reductions at that point. NW was planning to park 35 DC-9-30's by the end of the year. It is expected that this timeline will be expedited.

As for staffing levels, it is expected that the reductions at this point can be handled through normal attrition and slowed/stopped hiring.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7245 times:



Quoting Xbraniffone (Thread starter):

In a memo to Northwest pilots, union officers expressed support for "expedited arbitration" as a way to resolve their seniority integration conflict with Delta pilots."

I just read the memo, I didn't get any of this expedited arbitration, they pretty much said that NW pilots would get screwed over if the deal went through now.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7222 times:

The term expedited arbitration is in quotes in paragraph two – right at the top of the article.

NW pilot s know very well that they are sitting ducks for significant cutbacks given the highly fuel inefficient nature of NW’s DC9s.

I have stated before and I’ll state again that it is the NW pilots who stand the most to lose if the deal falls through. They have the potential to get significant pay and benefit improvements and they also stand to lose the most if more capacity cuts are put in place; unlike DL which can shift capacity from domestic to int’l, NW has little ability to grow int’l capacity right now so whatever they cut on the domestic side will directly shrink the airline. Given that NW is already planning to shrink their airline, any further cuts will directly hit their pilots.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6493 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7151 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The term expedited arbitration is in quotes in paragraph two -- right at the top of the article

It is evident that the NW pilots would agree to binding arbitration by national ALPA but the DL pilots would be against it. Kind of makes you wonder.


User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10511 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7118 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4):
It is evident that the NW pilots would agree to binding arbitration by national ALPA but the DL pilots would be against it. Kind of makes you wonder.

Maybe they're worried that they'll get stapled to the bottom of the list, anyway.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6967 times:

Given DL's recent plan for "comprehensive changes", if I were a pilot on either side I would suddenly be far more cooperative.

NS


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1134 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6892 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Given DL's recent plan for "comprehensive changes", if I were a pilot on either side I would suddenly be far more cooperative.

DL's Moak has rejected arbitration in his latest statement....no surprise here....

http://www.charlotte.com/463/story/543582.html

[Edited 2008-03-19 10:22:19]

User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6861 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Given DL's recent plan for "comprehensive changes", if I were a pilot on either side I would suddenly be far more cooperative.

 checkmark 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
NW pilot s know very well that they are sitting ducks for significant cutbacks given the highly fuel inefficient nature of NW's DC9s.

I see this as accelerating the retirement of the DC-9s at a faster rate with cuts needed.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6624 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):
I see this as accelerating the retirement of the DC-9s at a faster rate with cuts needed.

you are right. Which is exactly why the NW pilots are still beating the merger bush. The Delta pilots want no part of a merger with an airline about to park a whole bunch of 35 year old airplanes.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6615 times:



Quoting Okie73 (Reply 9):
you are right. Which is exactly why the NW pilots are still beating the merger bush. The Delta pilots want no part of a merger with an airline about to park a whole bunch of 35 year old airplanes.

Add to this the average age and length of service of NW pilots compared with DL, and you have many MD-88/90 pilots who will no doubt be the "screwed crew!"



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineBeertrucker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

I think this just goes to say more of what I have said. Most of the posts as of late have said the deal is dead and not going to happen. I still stand by what I said. I think this merger will happen in time. I might take some time but in the end yes I think it will happen.

I think combining the 2 airlines will be better for all. Yes you might see fares go up a little. But with the way the price of oil is going now. I think the price of fares across the board are going to go up everywhere not just with a merged airline.

I think most everyone expected a fast deal and it to be done and over with. But if we look at it in the way most mergers happen. Give it some time and I think it will happen. Just not as fast as us good old A.Netters want to see it cause we love to get the wars started with news. But in time we can get back to the DL/NW lovers and haters going at it again.



Fly HI
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6507 times:



Quoting CV880 (Reply 7):
DL's Moak has rejected arbitration in his latest statement....no surprise here....

Then he needs to have it forced on him. If I were Dick Anderson, I'd walk in there and offer him a choice between laying off a large fraction of his workforce or keeping their jobs.

Union leaders are nothing but thugs. They are in no way qualified to be involved in the complex plans of running a multibillion dollar business.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6364 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Dick Anderson

was that a joke? if so LOL

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Union leaders are nothing but thugs. They are in no way qualified to be involved in the complex plans of running a multibillion dollar business.

     

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
Add to this the average age and length of service of NW pilots compared with DL, and you have many MD-88/90 pilots who will no doubt be the "screwed crew!"

Why do you think that the MD-90s are going anywhere? DL should be getting MORE of them this summer. The only mainline plane that is going anywhere is the MD-88s.

And BTW This merger is far from dead.  

[Edited 2008-03-19 14:55:28]


yep.
User currently offlineReltney From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6274 times:

This isnt hard. I am about 43% up from the bottom at Delta and in a combined list I want to be in the same place +/-5%. If we all get the same position, everyone is equal. If you are a non airline employee and insist to add your opinion imagine it is your company combining with another and how would you like to come out in the end. The big issue is the old Republic pilots getting %^&&^% in 86 and trying to make it up and I understand.

Cheers



I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8634 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6231 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
Why do you think that the MD-90s are going anywhere? DL should be getting MORE of them this summer. The only mainline plane that is going anywhere is the MD-88s.

Nobody said the aircraft are leaving. It's just that DL pilots may be unseated by some NW DC-9 pilots with 20 years seniority. DL pilots don't want that. Understandable.

I agree this merger will happen. The management was genius to let the pilots sweat it out, on borrowed time. This short circuited the "blame game" and put it squarely on NW and DL pilots. Suddenly it is the pilots who must agonize over the potential in this merger.

There is too much to gain. The pilots will eventually reach a deal. The crisis may need to deepen a little bit. Then, it will make the pain vs gain picture much clearer for the line pilots. And you have your deal.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3123 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6165 times:



Quoting Xbraniffone (Thread starter):
In a memo to Northwest pilots, union officers expressed support for "expedited arbitration" as a way to resolve their seniority integration conflict with Delta pilots."

Courtesy: Minneapolis Star-Tribune

Delta Pilots Reject Arbitration With Northwest Pilots

"ATLANTA - Delta Air Lines Inc.'s pilots union rejected Wednesday the idea of submitting to arbitration with its counterpart at Northwest Airlines Corp. to break their impasse over integrating seniority lists as part of a possible combination of the carriers.

"In short, there will be no binding arbitration," Lee Moak, head of Delta's pilots union, said in an e-mail to The Associated Press."

http://www.startribune.com/local/16814981.html


User currently offlineTL8490 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6164 times:



Quoting Reltney (Reply 14):
This isnt hard. I am about 43% up from the bottom at Delta and in a combined list I want to be in the same place +/-5%. If we all get the same position, everyone is equal. If you are a non airline employee and insist to add your opinion imagine it is your company combining with another and how would you like to come out in the end. The big issue is the old Republic pilots getting %^&&^% in 86 and trying to make it up and I understand.

Cheers

As far as you know is this Delta's position???? Have to say it does make sense....


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6148 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Union leaders are nothing but thugs. They are in no way qualified to be involved in the complex plans of running a multibillion dollar business.

The same could be said for many airline CEO's past and present!



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6052 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
A lot of that capacity reduction is occuring through the shift from 100 seat DC-9-30 flying over to the 76-seat E-175 and CRJ-900 flying at Compass & Mesaba.

I thought the regionals could not grow any more until mainline does? I thought that was part of the scope clause? Or am I just talking out of my a**?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Union leaders are nothing but thugs. They are in no way qualified to be involved in the complex plans of running a multibillion dollar business.

Union leaders are here to protect the working class who are the employees of these multibillion dollar business. Sure, there have been some unions who haven't done much for their employees, however, I for one am thankful for my union day in and day out, I believe my company would work me to death if we dint have limits set in our contract.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineJaxs170 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

I can only say this as rumor only, however, the source is a 75/6 pilot at Delta and I believe it is credible:

NW pilots are seeking to have the first 1000 seniority numbers in a combined airline, and a large number of the next 1000, with a good number of new hires at DL stapled at the bottom.

DL pilots have said no way to this and are seeking a simpler 1:1 integration of the lists from top to bottom.

NW counter is that they will have a large number of pilots retiring in the next few years at which point it will balance out.

DL takes this to mean that NW pilots will get all the 747/767/777/330 slots and push their guys to lower paying aircraft and screw DL pilots over. DL says if they want it this way then fence off the 777 and 767 for a few years, obviously NW pilots are not taking that offer.

Interesting jockeying on both unions' part. I really wonder if NW's position is strong enough to hold firm to what they want, because based on the convesation, DL thinks NW hole cards are 7/2 off-suit (well, maybe a little better than that), but DL knows their cards plus the field gives them a strong hand to play. We'll see.



707, 717, 727, 732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, 752, 762/3/4, 744, 772, MD-80/2/3/8, DC-9, F-100, A319/20/21, A333, DC-10, MD-11, ARJ,
User currently offlineOkie73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5910 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Then he needs to have it forced on him. If I were Dick Anderson, I'd walk in there and offer him a choice between laying off a large fraction of his workforce or keeping their jobs.

I think you would be surprised at what Mr. Anderson has to say about Lee Moak. They are on the same side in this deal. Mr. Anderson, having been the CEO at NW where he dealt with the issues that still exist from their last merger, fully understands pilot issues and the problems you would face if they are not dealt with.

Quoting Jaxs170 (Reply 20):
DL takes this to mean that NW pilots will get all the 747/767/777/330 slots and push their guys to lower paying aircraft and screw DL pilots over.

no one gets pushed to lower paying aircraft no matter how you merge the lists. Everyone is protected in their current seat.

Quoting Jaxs170 (Reply 20):
DL says if they want it this way then fence off the 777 and 767 for a few years, obviously NW pilots are not taking that offer.

The issue here is that the NW guys want to be able to fence the 747 and 330, but don't want the Delta pilots to be able to have fences on the 777 and 767. Delta pilots have no problem with fences on the NWA "premium" flying. All they want in return is fences on their own "premium" flying.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4106 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5883 times:



Quoting Beertrucker (Reply 11):
I think most everyone expected a fast deal and it to be done and over with. But if we look at it in the way most mergers happen. Give it some time and I think it will happen. Just not as fast as us good old A.Netters want to see it cause we love to get the wars started with news. But in time we can get back to the DL/NW lovers and haters going at it again.

 checkmark  Especially those who thought DL should have been snapped up by HP+US just over a year ago.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
Why do you think that the MD-90s are going anywhere? DL should be getting MORE of them this summer.

That would be nice, but I'll have to see this one reach fruition to believe it. SLC has such issues with mainline gates, I'm not certain how they will use them. YVR, YYC and YEG are amongst some stations that need at least one mainline flight to the SLC hub.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
The only mainline plane that is going anywhere is the MD-88s.

I expect many of these will be returned to the lessors. DL currently has 54 of them on lease.
I should further point out that the remaining DL MDD pilots would be the ones with the most to lose in seniority based on the large numbers of former Republic personnel in the NW DC-9s that are all 35-40 years old. Hence my comment about them being the "screwed crew."



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5850 times:



Quoting Reltney (Reply 14):
This isnt hard. I am about 43% up from the bottom at Delta and in a combined list I want to be in the same place +/-5%.

Would you prefer that or a job?

With the economy going on the way it is, you certainly are not guaranteed the latter.

Quoting Jaxs170 (Reply 20):
I can only say this as rumor only, however, the source is a 75/6 pilot at Delta and I believe it is credible:

It sounds ridiculous. There is no chance in hell that Northwest's position is that unreasonable.

NS


User currently offlineNwarooster From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1107 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5661 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Northwest has a plum that airlines want to pick. The Pacific routes. Now Richard and Delta have to decide if they want it or let another airline have the plum. The vultures are in the air.  old 

25 Okie73 : The NWA position was not that unreasonable......but it was close to that.
26 Gigneil : Then Delta should agree to accept an arbitration report at least. There is no way a reasonable arbitration team would hand that sort of decision down
27 Post contains images A330323X : If you want a reasonable result, just be sure not to hire George Nicolau as your arbiter.
28 Flighty : Pilots are not working class. By the way, unions largely caused the collapse of manufacturing, mining and steel milling in the USA. That was a disast
29 LawnDart : Oh, really? Imagine that NW retires 35 DC9s, and DL retires, say...20 MD88s. NW ALPA sticks to their demand for the top XX NW pilots to remain at the
30 Jblake1 : Hey guys is there a seniority list for each aircraft type or just one master list and people at the top get top choice on which plane they fly and wha
31 Flighty : Exactly. DL is actually offering NW a good deal. It's dignified, and both sides sacrifice. Both sides gain. That is the way it has to be. NW doesn't
32 LawnDart : Typically, all pilots are on one list, and your position on that list determines what equipment you can fly (and how much money you get paid...).
33 Saab2000 : Well, if that's the case, neither are most of the bozos who actually do run these multimillion dollar businesses. I work in this multibillion dollar
34 PSU.DTW.SCE : Other than some modest performance gains, what is the benefit of shedding MD-88's and picking up used MD-90's? Those used MD-90's are not coming to D
35 WorldTraveler : see below yep. NW could and likely will accelerate DC9 retirements. They could easily justify a significant setdown of DC9s after the summer and layo
36 Post contains images SeaBosDca : You don't need to believe. Just have a look at labor history. Before unions, companies did literally work people to death. In the absence of unions a
37 Flybyguy : Wouldn't it be better for Delta to wait for NW to tank and for the rest of the industry just scavenge the scraps without this union luggage? Apparentl
38 PSU.DTW.SCE : Who said NW is anywhere close to tanking? Who said they go before DL?
39 Gigneil : I respect your opinions on the topic. I am frequently a misguided soul, however I always try to provide some supporting basis for my argumentation. A
40 Post contains images SeaBosDca : I'll agree with that. Seniority list haggling is hardly the most productive use of a union's time and energy.
41 Post contains images Lightsaber : No! The DC-9's will last forever! This is the crux. The unions hold final veto over this merger. Both airlines, long term, would do much better if th
42 Stratosphere : Actually NW pilots benefit more than anyone that is why they are so agreeable to arbitration. Everyone in the union world knows that arbitration is t
43 Mayor : How did DL handle integrating the WA pilots during that merger? I was there but have no idea what they did.
44 Bobnwa : We are not talking about arbitration between management and the union. We are talking about arbitration by national ALPA between two local ALPA's. Th
45 Rwy04LGA : Already there! What they ARE starting, in 10 days, is ATL-PVG
46 Okie73 : Both the Western and Pan Am pilots were pretty much merged in by relative postion, which is not the same as a relative percentage. For example, senio
47 A330323X : Just to be clear, ALPA International had nothing to do with the arbitration. The two local ALPA's decide whether to go to arbitration, and who is the
48 Bobnwa : I am suggesting they go to national ALPA. Who would better understand the issues and would be more neutral? Why would either side not want national A
49 A330323X : Why would John Prater, a CO captain, (or anyone else at ALPA Int'l, who all have their own airline) be more neutral than someone from outside the ind
50 Cubsrule : The smartass response to that might be that pilots would be BETTER off with someone from outside the industry...
51 Okie73 : The negotiations between DAL and NWA pilots were taking place outside of ALPA merger policy. Since no merger has been announced, ALPA policy does not
52 Rwy04LGA : A fence for 3 years and a percentage merger. Done. NEXT!
53 Post contains images Lightsaber : Ok, I'll be more precise. DL is establishing a large non-stop route network to India that will soon be their greatest asset. And I missed the ATL-PVG
54 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : Really I know of about 5 people on this site who WORK for Delta and they will say your wrong. Like I said they will replace 50 seat RJs with them. 4
55 Mayor : We seem to have quite a few "armchair CEO's" on a.net, no matter what age.
56 Post contains links KarlB737 : The latest news from Minneapolis: Courtesy: Minneapolis Star-Tribune Merger Plans Grounded, Northwest Focuses On Survival http://www.startribune.com/b
57 Beertrucker : Yes if you think about it the deal is on the back burner cause the pilots could not come to terms. But in my opion don't think for a minute that the d
58 Post contains images Nwarooster : BOTTOM LINE. Sooner or later there will be mergers and/or acquisitions among the major airlines. There also may be some airlines disappearing, just li
59 PSU.DTW.SCE : Yeah about 3-4 months ago they were saying that. They sure are not saying that right now. They will not be here this summer.
60 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : In one of the many DL threads it was said about 2-3 days ago.
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