Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
BA Increases IB Shareholding  
User currently offlineBAStew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

BA today brought 28,765,767 shares in Iberia raising its stake to 13.15%.

With one of the 4 focuses of its recently announced 2008-2011 business plan 'plan for growth' it would appear BA still has its sights firmly set on IB.

Under Spanish takeover regulation, the maximum shareholding that any core shareholder can buy in any 12-month period without triggering a mandatory offer is five per cent.



Sorry no link - source BA intranet.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSketty222 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Damn you just beat me to it !

Link: http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1127347.php



There's flying and then there's flying
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Does BA still have an option to acquire a majority of shares in Iberia so it could block takeover bids by rivals LH and AF-KL?

User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 762 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3043 times:



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 2):
Does BA still have an option to acquire a majority of shares in Iberia

Not majority of shares but only core shareholder shares (36.13% of IB shares before this purchase).

If anyone offers X€ per share to buy Iberia and a core shareholder wants to sell its part, any other core shareholder has the right to purchase that part at the same price instead of the "outsider".


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8344 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3016 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Given thatir France, KLM and soon to include Alitalia & Lufthansa, SWISS with Austrian and/or SAS probably not far away, BA better get merged. Iberia would be great for BA since other then GRU, MEX and EZE it doesn't fly to South America. BA should have purchased KLM, but they are happy with AF.

All the good European airlines are gone, Aer Lingus would be good for BA, but the Irish will keep it out of national pride. Finnair would be a good nibble but its small too, quite a good route system to Asia though. IB is the only sizeable independent in financially decent shape airline left in Europe which hasn't merged.


User currently offlineBlackwidow From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2880 times:

Fellow Oneworld partner Finnair??? (good Asia Network & anglo-finn relationship...) - what is the ownership of Finnair?

BMI??? (again!)


User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

BA had an option to buy Iberia last year but declined. But who knows, if the circumstances are right they might go ahead. I am sure BA are activly looking at merger / takeover oppourtunities.

User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

If BA does not move to acquire a controlling interest in Iberia, LH probably will. AF-KL probably can't bid for IB now since it is already in the process of buying AZ, and acquisition of a majority interest in yet another major European carrier probably will raise antitrust concerns. LH, which already has a minority interest in TAP, supposedly wants to acquire control of the Portuguese airline, but the Portuguese government probably would object. Another factor that may complicate any attempt by Lufthansa to acquire IB is that LH's alliance partner in Spain is JK, although LH has no equity interest in Spanair. As discussed before, both BA and LH covet IB primarily for its extensive network in Latin America. As Jfk777 notes, IB is BA's last opportunity to acquire a major European carrier so it can match it rivals AF-KL and LH-LX.

User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2658 times:



Quoting Blackwidow (Reply 5):
Fellow Oneworld partner Finnair??? (good Asia Network & anglo-finn relationship...) - what is the ownership of Finnair?

BMI??? (again!)

BA+AY would sound logic, I think.... but do they really need each other? AY is 1)smallish and 2) in a good shape.
And the state of Finland owns the majority of AY's shares and not willing to sell. But who knows about the future.


User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

It would seems BA still hasn't given up on Iberia after all!


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7479 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2298 times:



Quoting Theginge (Reply 6):
BA had an option to buy Iberia last year but declined. But who knows, if the circumstances are right they might go ahead.

Last year BA was in partnership with TPG in their take-over negotiations with IB. At that time BA stated that they would work with TPG but, at that time, would not increase their own 10 per cent stake in IB. Since then IB (and most other company's) shares have dropped significantly.

The failed BA backed TPG bid was at Euro 3.60 per share. Today's price for IB shares is around Euro 2.55. So if this story is true - sorry but I cannot find any confirmation of it on other news sites - BA have picked up over 3 per cent of IB's equity and saved themselves more than Euro 30.2 million (US $46.6 million).


User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2621 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

This is quite a change from BA's attitude last year.

I think there have been some serious conversations going on between BA and Spanish savings bank Caja Madrid (who now has the last word in IB matters). Caja Madrid was looking for a long-term commitment. I wonder what they talked about with BA, and if they have discussed any further long-term plans...?


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Makes it even more unlikely then that BA will re-introduce services to South America like Caracas and Bogota, which are both crying out for a service from london. Instead they will feed through MAD on horrid IB no frills short haul.

User currently offlineThowman From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 363 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2072 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
MAD on horrid IB no frills short haul

First, you don't have to take IB shorthaul, BA has plenty of flights between LHR and LGW and Madrid, and second the long haul product isn't too bad. Having done BOG a couple of times in business, I have no complaints


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2063 times:

Lets hope Avianca offer a LOn service soon. Changing in MAD is not to everyones liking. Also how can BA allign themselves with IB when their product differs so substantially. BA being a full service airline even on domestics and IB flying 3 hour flights with no frills service?

User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting R2rho (Reply 11):
I think there have been some serious conversations going on between BA and Spanish savings bank Caja Madrid (who now has the last word in IB matters). Caja Madrid was looking for a long-term commitment. I wonder what they talked about with BA, and if they have discussed any further long-term plans...?

In fact, they have always been in talks with BA since they really want the British carrier to be commited with their project. Mr Blesa said that the talks were difficult, as BA was not reacting very fast to the proposals given by Caja Madrid and El Corte Ingles. The fact is that only some days ago, Caja Madrid warned BA that if they didn't presented a solid project (well... it's not a project. I'd better say thay BA has to tell CM if they agree or not with CM's plan) in a given (and unknown) date, they would leave Oneworld, they would ask BA to sell the stake in IB, and they would invite LH, that already showed an interest to take BA's "seat".

I don't think BA has bought an extra 3% because of Caja Madrid (actually, Caja Madrid can ask BA to sell the shares, but they cannot oblige them to do it if they don't want to do it!), but rather because IB could be the second option for Air France - KLM, if the Alitalia deal doesn't work. I guess that at the end AF-KLM will reach an agreement the unions of AZ, but just in case they couldn't, both AF-KLM and LH would flirt with IB. Since Caja Madrid would seem happy with LH, this is as if BA had sent a message to AF-KLM and LH. Moreover, the stock was (at the time of BA's purchase) quite low. (Actually, 2,3 euros is slightly more than the value of the cash).

So, this is a win-win option for BA: (1) in strategic terms, to stop LH and AF-KLM; and (2) because of the low price.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
Makes it even more unlikely then that BA will re-introduce services to South America like Caracas and Bogota, which are both crying out for a service from london.

I disagree. If there is demand out of LON (and according to you, there is), BA will start the new routes. IB is not asking BA to stop their expansion plans. They are just saying that if they do not serve a given market, then that they send the passengers through MAD and not through the US, as they currently do. IB sends passengers to countries such as Canada via LHR (with IB code) so, why don't BA do the same with, let's say... Quito? Of course, BA could start the own flights (as IB would like to do with Canada), but expanding the codeshare agreement is good because BA's passengers could have more options: flying with BA and flying with IB with BA code (and BA miles).

Implementing such an agreement means that BA could add extra destinations, and if BA ever started the route with their own metal, then they could offer to their passengers a mix of frequencies operated by BA and by IB, which is good because BA will not probably operate daily, so at the end everybody is happy.

Quoting Thowman (Reply 13):
First, you don't have to take IB shorthaul, BA has plenty of flights between LHR and LGW and Madrid

   You're right.

[Edited 2008-03-22 16:23:16]

User currently offlineBAStew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2015 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 15):
Quoting Orion737 (Reply 12):
Makes it even more unlikely then that BA will re-introduce services to South America like Caracas and Bogota, which are both crying out for a service from london.

I disagree. If there is demand out of LON (and according to you, there is), BA will start the new routes. IB is not asking BA to stop their expansion plans. They are just saying that if they do not serve a given market, then that they send the passengers through MAD and not through the US, as they currently do. IB sends passengers to countries such as Canada via LHR (with IB code) so, why don't BA do the same with, let's say... Quito? Of course, BA could start the own flights (as IB would like to do with Canada), but expanding the codeshare agreement is good because BA's passengers could have more options: flying with BA and flying with IB with BA code (and BA miles).

Implementing such an agreement means that BA could add extra destinations, and if BA ever started the route with their own metal, then they could offer to their passengers a mix of frequencies operated by BA and by IB, which is good because BA will not probably operate daily, so at the end everybody is happy.

This is true.

Not sure about new routes but BA is increasing flights from UK-Sth America.

From end of OCT the thrice weekly LHR-GRU-GIG flight will become LHR-GIG direct allowing for a daily LHR-GRU-EZE service versus the current 4 times weekly on that route.

Non-stop LHR-EZE arent't in the pipeline at the moment. BA has traffic rights between GRU and EZE and this performs extremely well for BA. And as there are no competitors offering a non-stop LON-EZE flight I doubt BA will be quick to drop their lucrative intra sth american traffic on this sector.


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2015 times:

But surely as partner airlines some type of standardisation of service ought to be implemented. Will IB refelct and change their short/medium haul service product from a no frills to a BA type service or will IB persuade BA to adopt a buy on board policy of flight up to 4 hours like Scandinavia to Spain on IB?

User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1884 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
But surely as partner airlines some type of standardisation of service ought to be implemented.

Why should this happen? In the MAD/BCN-LRH/LGW routes they merged some years ago (frequencies are shared and profits and losses too, regardless who operates the flight) and each airline continues offering the same product than before.

Taking into account that a merger in a given route is probably the highest level of cooperation, I don't see why a codeshare (which only means that an airline can market the flights of the other airline) would mean a change in the service.

Caja Madrid is looking for a long-term cooperation program with BA implying more codeshares, unification of some areas (for instance, they would like having a common sales force, more FFP integration...), resuming joint routes abandoned by former GB Airways such as the MAD-GIB route, etc. In the long-run, they'd like to share passengers (making MAD as a secondary hub for BA and LHR as a secondary hub for IB, coordinating schedules and offering schedules as, for instance, FCO-LHR-EZE-MAD-FCO, etc.)

The fact is that AF-KLM is getting enormous, and LH is taking the same way. These mega carriers are offering a better product for the premium passenger, becuase having two hubs (for instance, FRA and ZRH; or CDG and AMS) and coordinating them means that you can offer more frequencies and destinations than your competitors.

Imagine that you live in Barcelona (or in Manchester) and that you want to go to Boston (or to Montevideo). Being IB alone allows you to offer one daily flight, that is not enough for the exigent travellers; but increasing cooperation you could offer one flight via MAD and two extra flights via LHR as if you were a single airline (with a single code, making possible to earn miles, dealing with only one website/call centre). And if on top of that the schedules are coordinated and you can efficiently cover the route without time overlaps, then this is much nicer because you can offer to your passenger three (profitable) frequencies, isn't it? Now your passenger perceives your schedules as solid as the ones of AF-KLM, for instance. (Of course, this would mean more UK-Spain flights, not only to LHR/LGW, but also to secondary destinations).

Caja Madrid is offering cooperation (as they are starting intense cooperation with AA in order to deal with the new Open Skies scenario) and they are sending to BA some proposals, from very simple codeshares to cross participation in the capital of each other, with the possibility of sharing facilities (for instance, as LHR is constrained, MAD can host some intercontinental BA/Openskies flights), having mixed crews in some routes, having Executive Club and Iberia Plus merged, developing cost-saving measures (for instance, exchanging maintenance services, ordering the fuel / the aircrafts together to get some discount, etc.), implementing a passenger exchange program in which BA could send passengers to IB and get part of the revenue and the other way around (as it already happens in the MAD/BCN-LON route and as it will happen with AA), etc.

They are not forcing anything nor any particular level of cooperation. Of course, any measure would be agreed by both carriers. But at the end, what is important is that if having IB and BA working together in the MAD/BCN-LON route means more benefits for a passenger and for the firms, why don't expand the cooperation to other fields? What it is not very normal is that being IB the European OW carrier specialised in LATAM, BA's passengers only could fly to Lima via MAD.

The key factor is that BA prefers a passenger doing a LHR-US flight with them and then asking him/her to go to an AA flight (because an intercontinental flight means a lot of revenue) rather than offering a LHR-MAD-LATAM ticket, with the MAD-LATAM leg being operated by IB, because in this case they could only get the revenue of the LHR-MAD flight. That's why they'd like having a contract as the one AA, in which BA could share with IB the revenue of the passengers making a MAD-LATAM flight in IB and sent by BA. And the other way around. Many routes could be usefull: you can't imagine how many people from the UK make the LHR-MAD-JNB flight. Also the current (and the future, because the new director plan is being written and a lot of new destinations and frequencies will come) LATAM network. Also some MAD-Africa routes that could be implemented by IB and that could be useful for BA (after the end of BMED services on behalf of BA and due to the lack of slots at LHR), etc.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1764 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 14):
and IB flying 3 hour flights with no frills service?

Why is it vital to have frills and bells & whistles on a mere 3 hour flight?


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8344 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1610 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting R2rho (Reply 11):
Caja Madrid was looking for a long-term commitment. I wonder what they talked about with BA, and if they have discussed any further long-term plans...?

Caja Madrid should be happier as a BA shareholder then an Iberia shareholder. IB has a good operation but owning a couple of percent in BA sounds better. BA-IB would be a great airline with Madrid being the hub to all the Americas, BA would just fly to MEX, GRU and EZE as it does now.


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

I dont think its necessary to have bells and whistles on a 3 hour flight but offering the customer a complimentary drink service or small snack shouldnt be beyond a supposed 'full service' carrier.

User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1434 times:

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
IB has a good operation but owning a couple of percent in BA sounds better.

   x 1.000.000 times, but I guess this is not going to happen, unfortunately. In the past, the CEO made a trial, but he always got blocked by BA (and CM too). (Last Chairmain used to say in the board that "either we shallow BA, or either they will do that with us", and that's why he proposed a takeover for a 30, 40, 50% of the capital when the prices of BA were ridiculous after Sept. 11th) In my opinion, Caja Madrid will sell Iberia sooner or later. That's why I disagree with the statement of some newspapers saying that CM was willing to kill the bid of BA. It's the other way around. If ever IB bought a part of BA (only with the cash, they could become the largest shareholder, and with a bit of effort, they could even get the whole company, although I guess the core of BA - 33% - will not sell their stake) and BA & IB made a new holding with two subsidiaries (BA and IB), following the AF-KLM model, CM would have a good portion of this carrier. Caja Madrid is relatively small (in the European context), so this would be too much for them. Selling IB is "easy" and likely, but selling BA-IB is not, and somehow, if this even happened, they would be stuck to BA-IB "forever" (or in the long term).

I don't think CM is willing to do that. I wish I was wrong, but I don't think so.

Moreover, the press is now speculating that Mr. Blesa (CEO of Caja Madrid) could be willing to sell if BA made an offer for a good price.

Unfortunately, all these rumours are very bad for IB: labor agreements and other decisions being delayed, the managers being not able to make long-terms plans because of the uncertain ownership, and so on. Iberia needs stability and no more takeover adventures. However, here in Spain the industry is changing very fast: Spanair was supposed to be purchased by Marsans but now it will go to the unknown Gadair with the fund "Bin Salem", or going to the Portuguese fund "Longstock" (it seems that both the Iberia-Gestair offer and others were rejected because Gadair will pay more); Vueling is in trouble; Clickair is not as bad but still loosing money (Will the merge? Will IB leave Clickair? Probably not, after the failure of their plans with Spanair); Air Europa is building a new low-wages subsidiary; etc. etc. As you see, everybody is like crazy. So, let's see if the market calms down, the ownerships are stabilized, and everything goes well.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 21):
I dont think its necessary to have bells and whistles on a 3 hour flight but offering the customer a complimentary drink service or small snack shouldnt be beyond a supposed 'full service' carrier.

As a customer, I'd agree with you, but from the managerial point of view, it's not that obvious. The airlines are in an extremely competitive market, and moreover with changing (increasing) costs across time due to the oil prices. Keeping costs reduced is important, since customers do not tolerate proportional increases in their fares when the costs go up.

On top of that, more and more airlines (legacy carriers but also second generation airlines, as Air Europa or Spanair, here in Spain) are moving to the buy on board concept. A BOB service is not equal to LCC. Of course, I'd like a full service as it happened before, we also have to realize that the product is changing. Now, having a BOB product is normal. In the UK, the traditional service is resisting because of some factors (low portion of domestic flights, London as an international hub, London as a city that creates and attracts premium passengers, etc.), but abroad the BOB is expanding.

However, despite of this, Spanair is trying to set a classical service (beverage + sandwich) in some routes (to Star Alliance hubs), and IB handed me out a chocolate and a lollipop in my last MAD-BCN flight. Also they try to keep some legacy carriers services, such as a free newspaper from 6am to 11am and then the "Iberia Universal" newspaper, etc. etc. They do what they can, but it's very difficult to improve when margins are soooo little and everybody in the industry is loosing money because of the excess of supply.

[Edited 2008-03-25 04:04:22]

User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1342 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):
having Executive Club and Iberia Plus merged

That's the part I like least in case of a potential merger since BA's executive plus is so premium oriented that discount fares doesn't award any points/miles.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 18):
Also some MAD-Africa routes that could be implemented by IB and that could be useful for BA (after the end of BMED services on behalf of BA and due to the lack of slots at LHR), etc.

With BMI dropping Dakar, the option BA is offering to ticket holders is SN through BRU instead of IB thru MAD so not a good exapmle of BA/IB cooperation.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 22):
As a customer, I'd agree with you, but from the managerial point of view, it's not that obvious. The airlines are in an extremely competitive market, and moreover with changing (increasing) costs across time due to the oil prices. Keeping costs reduced is important, since customers do not tolerate proportional increases in their fares when the costs go up.

Your statement about competition and costs makes me wonder whether other legacy carriers like AF, KL, LH, LX don't face the same challenges as IB does. If IB wants to become a top tier legacy airline like these ones they need to find a way to improve their on board service.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 22):
and IB handed me out a chocolate and a lollipop in my last MAD-BCN flight

You know this is an exception on MAD-BCN as a consequence of the recently introduced high speed train.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1311 times:



Quoting Thowman (Reply 13):
First, you don't have to take IB shorthaul, BA has plenty of flights between LHR and LGW and Madrid

You would have to take the BA operated but IB codeshared flights though to get the thru-fares on longhaul. I would choose BA shorthaul over IB anyday, but I on longhaul I'm getting good feedback from clients on the new IB J class seat and service. IB have some excellent fares. JNB for example lowest ex-LON: Y GBP 187 + tax. J 1185 + tax. BA by comparison is in Y GBP 685 + tax and J GBP 2471 + tax.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BA&IB: Does BA Need To Merge? posted Mon Mar 26 2007 07:14:04 by Scotron11
BA And IB To Start Gibraltar-Spain Routes! posted Mon Sep 4 2006 12:29:49 by AIR MALTA
BA & IB. Which The Future Will Be?. posted Mon Apr 24 2006 15:22:46 by Dme
BA 1487/ IB 3172 Mon 23 Jan posted Sat Jan 21 2006 21:46:27 by Madairdrie
BA Increases SEA-LHR To 10x Weekly posted Fri Dec 9 2005 07:06:48 by RwSEA
BA & IB Link Up On Flights posted Thu Dec 16 2004 14:39:28 by Scotron11
BA Quits Qantas Shareholding! posted Wed Sep 8 2004 01:36:36 by CXoneWorld
BA Increases MIA Service. posted Tue Aug 10 2004 21:08:31 by MAH4546
SN BA Increases Frequencies To Sunny Destinations posted Thu Mar 6 2003 14:33:17 by Luchtzak
BA And IB Join SN's Privilege FFP... posted Wed Oct 16 2002 11:36:44 by Slz396