Jetjack74 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 6587 posts, RR: 55 Posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 9623 times:
I was flying back from NRT today and got into a discussion with one of our captains about the future of our fleet and the possiblity of an ultra longhaul fleet type that would be an easy integration as far from a crew training perspective. But could the A345 be a worthy acquisition for us? I think we could use an ultra-long haul aircraft larger than the A333, but smaller than the 744 for our transpac and India flying. So woud this be a good fit for us? We are ordering the 787 with RR engines, so this would give our maintenence programme commonality with RR engines.
"Shut your pie hole and listen to me when I say that I am finished with the checking of the bags conversation."
PM From Japan, joined Feb 2005, 5202 posts, RR: 60 Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 9575 times:
Would LOVE to see it but it would be flying in the face of conventional wisdom. The A345 has found a niche or two here and there and it LOOKS fantastic but the market has not really taken to it.
Does NW need ULH? Does anyone flying the A345 really use its long-range capabilities to the full? Aren't the NW 787s intended to fill the kind of niche you are describing?
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7680 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 9555 times:
As far as an ultra-long ranged aircraft is concerned, the B-777-200LR is the best way to go, with the much lower operating costs of the B-777L when compared to the A-340-500. Plus, I believe the Boeing carries more cargo, which NW would be interested in.
But, what routes would NW fly a B-777L or A-345 on? The current longest routes are served very well with the B-747-400, so to replace these airplanes, it make sense to buy the B-747-8I.
So, to answer your question about the A-340-500 being a good fit for NW, it is no.
Well, I think we could use an aircraft of that size on such routes as LAX-NRT, DTW-SDA, DTW-PVG, or JFK-NRT,
Quoting PM (Reply 1): Aren't the NW 787s intended to fill the kind of niche you are describing?
Well, that's assuming we get the 787 before 2010
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): As far as an ultra-long ranged aircraft is concerned, the B-777-200LR is the best way to go, with the much lower operating costs of the B-777L when compared to the A-340-500. Plus, I believe the Boeing carries more cargo, which NW would be interested in.
Well, since we're already trained on the A330, it would serve as a complement to the widebody Airbus fleet we have already
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): But, what routes would NW fly a B-777L or A-345 on?
Routes that are too small for the 747, but are out of range of the A330.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): The current longest routes are served very well with the B-747-400, so to replace these airplanes, it make sense to buy the B-747-8I.
I don't think we'll order the 748 in any model although I think we could use them, especially in the freighter fleet
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): So, to answer your question about the A-340-500 being a good fit for NW, it is no.
Well, it was just thought
"Shut your pie hole and listen to me when I say that I am finished with the checking of the bags conversation."
MBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 9352 times:
Wouldn't a A340-600 make more sense here? The routes seem to be feasible according to the great circle mapper and it would offer more revenue space. But the question is where to get reasonable priced A346 from?
my 2 cts
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5620 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months ago) and read 8698 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): As far as an ultra-long ranged aircraft is concerned, the B-777-200LR is the best way to go, with the much lower operating costs of the B-777L when compared to the A-340-500. Plus, I believe the Boeing carries more cargo, which NW would be interested in.
But NW has a large Airbus fleet and if I recall correctly is the largest operator of the A330 so the A340 makes more sense then adding a subfleet of 777LRs.
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5): Routes that are too small for the 747, but are out of range of the A330.
Would not a A340-300 be enough for most routes you have in mind ?
Although I would love to see any version of the A340 in the beautiful NW colors I highly doubt that we will ever see that.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Jfk777 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3472 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8419 times:
The A345 is old news, NWA should think twins, like the 787(ordered) or 777-300ER to replace the 744's. 773ER would work for JFK-NRT and any new DTW to HKG or SIN flights that may happen in the furure. DTW-India is within the range of the 777's. With so many airlines getting both 787 & 777, NW should go in that direction. A330 are great for Northwest to Japan & European flying, an important part of NW's international network.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5620 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8371 times:
Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 13): NWA should think twins, like the 787(ordered) or 777-300ER to replace the 744's. 773ER would work for JFK-NRT and any new DTW to HKG or SIN flights that may happen in the furure. DTW-India is within the range of the 777's. With so many airlines getting both 787 & 777, NW should go in that direction. A330 are great for Northwest to Japan & European flying, an important part of NW's international network.
If the A345 is "old news" the 777-300ER is old news as well. They should think A350-1000 as a 747 replacement to add the 777 while the successor is coming soon is nonsense.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
American 767 From United States, joined May 1999, 2473 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7733 times:
Wasn't Northwest looking at the A340 twenty years ago when it was still under study? I believe so. But they decided not to buy it and went instead for the A320's for domestic routes and later on the A330 for long haul routes. I don't think Northwest is going to order A345's, although the A345 would look nicely sharp in NW's silver livery, especially if the 787 can cover ultra long haul routes. Maybe Northwest should look at the 787-10 for ultra long haul flights requiring extra capacity compared to other long haul routes, like SEA-NRT or SFO-NRT. JFK-NRT might require extra capacity, so would LAX-NRT and MSP-NRT, or even DTW-NRT.
Wouldn't the 787-10 suit Northwest? I think it would. Opinions are welcome, but please no A vs B fight.
Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
"Aimer jusqu'a l'impossible, c'est possible". Tina Arena.
Dennys From France, joined May 2001, 496 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7607 times:
yes , the A345 could be the right plane for USA- Far East Non Stop flights . They wanted A342-43s at the very beginning , and they still think the A340 is the right plane for ultra long hauls !
IDISA From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 247 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6999 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2): Plus, I believe the Boeing carries more cargo, which NW would be interested in.
Does anyone here know if the A345 is a good aircraft in terms of payload, weight & balance or if the 777 is better for cargo? I heard many stories about poor payload on the A345 but it seems it has a high TOW and since it is designed for ultra-long-haul on the long-haul (I mean 11-12 hrs trips) should be ok...
Gigneil From United States, joined Nov 2002, 13903 posts, RR: 90 Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6839 times:
I had all this typed out since yesterday. No Idea why I didn't post it.
I am dubious as to the value of it at this point, JJ.
Now that the 787 is incoming, I'd think the 787-9 might be a first good step. 8200-8500nm is a pretty solid range, and that's about what you're gonna get out of the A340-500 at any rate. The A340-500 is only mildly larger than the 333, and the 333 only a little bigger than the 789. I'm not sure if that's the size you had in mind.
Let's talk about what your needs might be:
As to payload, I believe the A340-500 will likely carry a little more heft than the 787-9, but I don't know that to be sure. I don't know what you guys need as far as raw uplift across what range as well. Certainly a 777-200LR is a little bigger still than the 345 (barely), but definitely a heavier lifter, and certainly a more efficient one. We could also get you more range out of one (DTW-SIN, BKK, certainly India, etc are no problem with any of these planes)
If you really need to go bigger in terms of seats, our options are more limited. Neither the 777-300ER nor the A350-1000 are "ULH" planes, but both do feature more range than a 777-200ER, which is in use with CO on pretty durn long flights from EWR to India and HKG. The A351 would be the more modern choice, but the availability is distant.
Bobnwa From United States, joined Dec 2000, 4748 posts, RR: 12 Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6463 times:
Quoting American 767 (Reply 16): Wasn't Northwest looking at the A340 twenty years ago when it was still under study? I believe so. But they decided not to buy it and went instead for the A320's for domestic routes and later on the A330 for long haul routes. I don't think Northwest is going to order A345's, although the A345 would look nicely sharp in NW's silver livery, especially if the 787 can cover ultra long haul routes. Maybe Northwest should look at the 787-10 for ultra long haul flights requiring extra capacity compared to other long haul routes, like SEA-NRT or SFO-NRT. JFK-NRT might require extra capacity, so would LAX-NRT and MSP-NRT, or even DTW-NRT.
NWA did more than look at the A340. It ordered about 20 of them but later changed that to A320/319 and later still ordered the A330.
RandyWaldron From United States, joined Mar 2006, 323 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6193 times:
Quoting American 767 (Reply 16): Wasn't Northwest looking at the A340 twenty years ago when it was still under study?
Yes - to add to what BobNWA stated above, they created an entire Pilot and Flight Attendant Training Program and were absolutely ready to add the A340 to the fleet in the mid-90's.
Jetjack74 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 6587 posts, RR: 55 Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6063 times:
Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 24): Yes - to add to what BobNWA stated above, they created an entire Pilot and Flight Attendant Training Program and were absolutely ready to add the A340 to the fleet in the mid-90's.
We even had the cabin mock-up trainer in the mock-up room at Building F for the longest time. Don't think it's there anymore
"Shut your pie hole and listen to me when I say that I am finished with the checking of the bags conversation."
26 Aruba: JFK to Bangkok thats pretty long if you ask me.
27 Gigneil: No doubt, the A340-500 could certainly serve many routes well for NW. I'm just think that 787-9s could probably serve most of them well, also. The que
28 AADC10: The A345 might make a reasonable stopgap lease, but four engine planes other than the A380 are really going to hurt with fuel prices the way they are.
29 Flexo: Does anyone know how fast NW could get an A345 (or 343 / 346 for that matter) from Airbus right now if they went for it?
30 Gigneil: I'm unsure. All the A330s and A340s are built on the same line... but Airbus seems to be pretty good at slotting in top customers for a frame or two
31 DfwRevolution: Airbus hasn't signed a single A346 this year. They only sold 8 in 2007. In that time, Boeing has sold 105 773ER. In other words, Boeing has 93% of th
32 Reality: Which is a good argument in favor of the A380?
34 AirNZ: If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty of things being so obvious, they then outsold the 748.......so Airbus took a 100% market share the
35 Viscount724: NW ordered 20 A340s and took options on 10 A330s in 1987. Related NY Times article. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9B0DE6D9113EF937A35757C0A9
37 WorldTraveler: The A345 weighs 50,000 pounds more than a 777LR and burns 20% more fuel. The 777LR can carry 275 passengers and bags, 25K pounds of cargo, and fly for
38 LifelinerOne: However, Singapore Airlines is going to change their A345's to an all business lay-out, so they will stop making maximum use of the plane passenger w
39 KC135TopBoom: The A-340s would be a sub-fleet, too. The operating costs of the B-777-200LR is 20% less than the A-340-500. Over a 20-25 year life of the airplanes,
40 ConcordeBoy: ...and you base this on ____? Which has what exactly to do with anything being discussed prior? (no real bias here BTW, I'd personally like to see th
41 Columba: Because they have already A340s in their fleet and the A330 would be in addition to that. Qantas has just ruled out the 777 for a similar reason sayi
42 Bobnwa: I agree that the pilots should agree to a fair seniority agreement, but I believe it is the DL pilots who are holding the deal up from what I hear. I
43 WorldTraveler: I am happy to admit if the DL pilots are at fault if they are... but all the news reports say that NW's pilots want to take the top X000 seniority po
44 Bmacleod: Assuming the merger goes through, chances of DL/NW looking at 340-500s are as good as them ordering the A380...
45 PlaneHunter: Sales figures have clearly shown which models are "more advanced". The 77W/77L combo has outsold the A345/346 combo by a rate of 2,5 to 1. And while
46 Bobnwa: Spoken like a true pom pom waver. Question why would national ALPA not come up with a plan that would be fair? Do you think they would have a hidden
47 YULYMX: As of NOW NW doesn't fly ULH so doesn't need the A345... DTW is closed to YYZ and AC didn't need there A345 to Asia.. So Why NW... NW look more like t
48 NA: Emirates says that the 345 is better on some route lengths than the 772LR, on others its the other way around, thats why they keep them. I heavily do
49 NWAESC: No. Not yet. That NWA's once vaunted MX program is a shell of what it once was? That's what I take it to mean anyway....
50 YULYMX: A345 and the B772LR are Great Planes... similar planes except for the 2 VS 4 engines... and the ETOPS rules that the LR have to obay... so resticted o
51 Bobnwa: Please guys, the correct word is THEIR not THERE when referring to ownership ie: their flights, their aircraft, their decision etc.
52 OldAeroGuy: At the end of Feb '08, combined sales for the A345/346 stood at 143 while combined 772LR/773ER stood at 401 for a ratio of 2.8 to 1.
53 Columba: The 777 has the advantage of being a twin and that it uses less fuel but the technology and materials you find in both aircraft have the same standar
54 OldAeroGuy: It's OEW is also 11t lower and its MTOW is 28.5t lower to provide the same payload-range envelope. Application of the same technology and materials c
55 Gigneil: No it wouldn't. It would integrate into the A330 fleet. We know what the undercarriage can do. NS
56 PlaneHunter: Thanks for providing the latest numbers in addition to my rough estimate. PH[Edited 2008-03-21 11:03:00]
57 PM: We're men of the same generation. We also know when and when not to put an apostrophe in its. Puts us in a small minority here and makes me feel...
58 NW748i: As US is finding out, it's not as easy to find such aircraft as one might think. The clock is ticking toward when they are supposed to start the Chin
59 KC135TopBoom: With DL being the larger airline, and senior partner in this merger, there is no need for DL to make their pilots subordnate in seniority to the NW p
60 Stratosphere: If you don't get the point you must be a scab....Get it now!!!!
61 WorldTraveler: because national unions do not force themselves onto their locals... look at what US and HP are going through to see the "value" of forcing a nationa
62 Nwab787techops: Is that all you can say? That's your point? Calling people names. The 444 day had pasted when I came to Northwest airlines. Northwest is brings back
63 Columba: Same would apply for NW, they don´t have to buy the 777, yet. With the 787 coming and their A330/747 fleet they are very much covered. I believe tha
64 WorldTraveler: I'll remind you once again that NW's Asian network has not produced the level or consistency of profits that UA has produced to Asia or that NW gener
65 Antskip: 20% more fuel per passenger (if the flight is full) or per flight? As the B777LR carries about 20% more passengers than the A345, does the B777LR car
66 Bobnwa: The HP and US pilots both sought and agreed to binding arbitration from national ALPA to settle the seniority issue. When it was annouced the US pilo
68 Stratosphere: Really, Well my recollection is that the strike ended in Nov 2006. You have been posting knowledge of and information about nwa since you joined this
70 MD-90: 748I or 748F? The 773ER hauls plenty of cargo if NWA wants to buy pax airplanes. Are Emirates' A345s owned or leased? If they're owned, they probably
71 DfwRevolution: It would be per passenger. The fuel volume of the A340-500 is approximately 10% greater than the 777-200LR with its auxiliary tanks fitted. Combine w
72 Gigneil: That's not right. Dampening also means reducing. Sound dampening is correct. NS
73 AirNZ: Nothing much, except if you actually read it it was in response to this comment below (reply 31). Now, as you obviously read both posts I'm kind of c
74 WorldTraveler: Since the LR carries more pax and cargo yet the 345 carries more fuel, the fuel savings is obviously at least 20% and probably more. note that HP and
75 SunriseValley: In my view you must think in terms of total payload. For many routes passenger load is not close to max payload. Most carriers can achieve this with
76 BrianDromey: Clearly the 777LR is not so superior to the 345 that airlines can dump them, buy 777 and still be ahead. Now AC is an obvious exception here, but IIRC
77 Flyglobal: I have one simple question as I am not a pilot and are not a seniority expert, nor do I know any seniority rules. However I understand that seniority
78 Flyglobal: Now as we see Airbus will move more towards the 777 with their A350 replacements of A330/ A340 lineup, but doesn't really have a true 787-8 competito
79 Antskip: EK have been operating a A345 direct MEL-DXB combined with a B777 MEL-SIN-DXB service for some years now. It would be interesting to know what factor
80 SunriseValley: Flyglobal, this quote is not my posting.
81 Bobnwa: Again, I ask why would the DL pilots not want to ask national ALPA to arbitrate. Do they think that national ALPA would have a bias toward DL pilots.
82 OldAeroGuy: The 772LR carries about 10% more passengers than the A345. For Emirates, the pax count is 258 for the A345 vs 286 for the 772LR. For a given mission
83 SunriseValley: I assume EK are using the standard gross weight 777-300 on this route because of the tech. stop they are doing in SIN. There would be no reason to do
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