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Athens, GA - No EAS Bids  
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5212 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/031908/news_2008031901054.shtml

Apparently nobody is interested in replacing Air Midwest on AHN-CLT. Mesa, unable to sell Air Midwest, is stuck for the time being.


Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

Delta just doesn't have a plane small enough in their DCI arsenal... but AHN-ATL really would make the most sense.

NS


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Considering that this was the result of Gulfstream International failing to takeover service from Air Midwest, they're actually surprised no one bid on the service? I guess nobody really wants to serve AHN outside of the long gestating MetJet startup. There has been a proposal from LZU-based Wings Air to start a shuttle service from LZU to ATL, and eventually offer service to ATL from AHN, as well as RYY and Macon (I'm guessing MAC over MCN), but there has not been any news on the LZU-ATL service since it was announced in October of 2007. While Wings Air would be using Piper Chieftains if the service starts, if they offer enough daily flights, they could actually offer as many seats as Air Midwest currently does out of AHN.

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Athens is way too close to Atlanta, Charlotte, Greenville, and many other cities to justify EAS subsidies. What a waste of money.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

I really think that given some marketing, reaosnable fares, a realiable schedule, and a DH-8 that AHN-CLT could be self sustaining.

What they could also do is combine the EAS and run 3x MCN-AHN-CLT



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2025 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
While Wings Air would be using Piper Chieftains if the service starts, if they offer enough daily flights, they could actually offer as many seats as Air Midwest currently does out of AHN.

AHN is guaranteed 15-seat or larger planes, as that's what they had at the time of deregulation.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 4):
I really think that given some marketing, reaosnable fares, a realiable schedule, and a DH-8 that AHN-CLT could be self sustaining

US couldn't make CSG-CLT work with the Dash 8, why do you think AHN would fare better?

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 2):
Considering that this was the result of Gulfstream International failing to takeover service from Air Midwest

And Gulfstream had the gall to bid again on FKL/DUJ/LWB after failing to start service there as promised.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2008 times:



Quoting A330323X (Reply 5):
US couldn't make CSG-CLT work with the Dash 8, why do you think AHN would fare better?

Their 1/2 a$$ed re-attempt on the CSG market post 9/11 was a joke. US was the market leader to BOS/NYC/WAS (CSG's top markets) for many years despite being in Delta country. I think they gace up too quickly, and perhaps if airport incentives had been offered then like they are these days that they would still be there. CSG is probably one of the largest single carrier markets out there. granted the 800,000lb gorilla is 90 miles north, i still think they can support and additional carrier(s)



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineKovi17 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

As I have close ties to AHN... They have been VERY successful in the past with 8+ flights per day all of which were full flights. The reason why they are down to 2 flights a day for most of the week is because of Air Midwest's performance. Customers are very unsatisfied with how they have man cancellations as well as delays. In AHN there are/were many high ranking members in terms of miles for US Airways, now most of them go to ATL to avoid any hassles of delays caused by 1 aircraft serving that route. If they did get to have EAS with many flights a day WITH a very reputable Airline and bigger aircraft, and frankly newer aircraft than the 1900D, AHN could be successful.


We dont worry about small things like that...
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1971 times:



Quoting Kovi17 (Reply 7):
As I have close ties to AHN... They have been VERY successful in the past with 8+ flights per day all of which were full flights. The reason why they are down to 2 flights a day for most of the week is because of Air Midwest's performance. Customers are very unsatisfied with how they have man cancellations as well as delays. In AHN there are/were many high ranking members in terms of miles for US Airways, now most of them go to ATL to avoid any hassles of delays caused by 1 aircraft serving that route. If they did get to have EAS with many flights a day WITH a very reputable Airline and bigger aircraft, and frankly newer aircraft than the 1900D, AHN could be successful.

Totally agre, AHN used to have US and DL with 5+ daily each. As Atlanta metro traffic gets worse (safe bet on that one!) AHN's appeal will only grow.

3x CLT DH8 can be supported. (0700, 1200, 1700)

I think if they went and got a SCASD grant to help grow the service to that level (marketing and incentives etc) that they would be sucessful



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1965 times:



Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 8):
I think if they went and got a SCASD grant to help grow the service to that level (marketing and incentives etc) that they would be sucessful

MCN got a SCASD grant, and so did ABY. Piedmont said it wasn't interested in both cases.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineImapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1945 times:



Quoting Kovi17 (Reply 7):
As I have close ties to AHN... They have been VERY successful in the past with 8+ flights per day all of which were full flights. The reason why they are down to 2 flights a day for most of the week is because of Air Midwest's performance. Customers are very unsatisfied with how they have man cancellations as well as delays. .

Although this is true for current service, AHN has been at 2 RTs since at least 2003. This has nothing to do with Air Midwest's performance, as AMW used to operate 98% CCF and 85% A14 up until early 2006. In 2006, all hell broke lose with operations around the country, the DL JFK coverage debacle that pushed 4 planes C-Checks and Structurals to be due at once leaving 2 lines short in flying, and have never been able to catch back up. For years, Air Midwest was the crown jewel of Mesa for operations, always beating out F8 and YV every single month for CCF, TCF & A14.

With the current state of 1900 expenses, there is virtually zero chance for places like AHN ever to be without subsidy with a 1900 due to the extreme CASM. They are in a very awkward state that all aircraft go through, relatively high ownership costs and now very expenses maintenance as many aircraft approach 35,000 to 40,000 cycles. Fuel increase also affects 1900s more on a per seat basis than virtually any other aircraft, for example:

A DH8-100 burns about 155 gallons per hour. A 1900 burns about 120 per hour. So on a seat basis, 4.19 gallons per hour per seat for a DH8-100 while a BE1 burns 6.31 gallons per hour per seat. So a rise in cost from $2.00 per gallon to $3.00 per gallon will affect the DH8 only $8.38 per seat hour, while a BE1 is affected at $12.62. 50% more exposure per seat in fuel has really hurt the 1900s ability to make money.

Heck, on a full up basis, Great Lakes, Gulfstream & Air Midwest have all had expenses show up in their latest EAS bids at roughly $1525 to almost $1600 per block hour. A typical DH8-100 is at about $2600 per block hour.

I honestly believe that the days of a 1900 in larger EAS markets is numbered, whereas the ultra-small markets are also going to end up going the way of a Caravan, King Air or Pilatus as the $200 per passenger subsidy is going to start coming into play big time. The also relatively high cost of a BE1 for ownership (leases can't be had these days for under $25,000 thanks to uber-demand from Africa and parts of Asia) are causing some serious problems. In comparison, a DH8-100 can be had for $25k for a "rough" one to $45K for a relatively good one. J41's can be had in the $20K range, a J32 around $10k, Saab 340a's for $25K-$35K. Raytheon has managed to do an amazing job of keeping the marketplace tight for BE1s, eventhough they at times had over 100 frames parked around the country.


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

OK, I just checked and Athens-Clarke County has a population of approximately 175,000. It's only an hour and a half from ATL, a bit further to GSP and CLT.

Why in the world does this airport require an EAS subsidy? Coming from Texas, I know places like ABI, SJT, SPS and TYR, all of which are similarly-sized or smaller than Athens, don't require EAS subsidies for their service, and some of these cities do OK supporting RJ traffic.

What's the big deal with AHN? Should taxpayers really be subsidizing this service?



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1848 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 11):
Why in the world does this airport require an EAS subsidy? Coming from Texas, I know places like ABI, SJT, SPS and TYR, all of which are similarly-sized or smaller than Athens, don't require EAS subsidies for their service, and some of these cities do OK supporting RJ traffic.

ive done a whole comparison for AHN to similar sized markets for work and i believe AHn can support service if they were to get real service. I think EAS can sometimes hurt airports in the sense that historically two bids have been placed for AHN-CLT a 2x and a 3x and obviously the govt will pick the 2x.

If they had a real level of service on real aircraft with good reliability, i think the service would be self sufficient

One other small problem is that USairways does not have a "state rate" or air fare agreement, which forces UGA people to ATL on Delta. This issue also needs to be resolved to fix the air service problem at AHN. Obviously DL wont give a hoot since they'd get them either way



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1826 times:



Quoting A330323X (Reply 9):
MCN got a SCASD grant,

MCN might as well had not won the money. The DOT said that MCN cannot use the money to attract a competitor to DL's subsidized service.


User currently offlineKovi17 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

RL thanks for the support, i totaly agree with what you said. I believe we could do quite well if the conditions were right. Frankly EAS has only hurt us, if airlines came in on their own they would do quite well. Id pray for piedmont! The locality of the airport doesnt exactly matter since GSP is doing quite well with the population size they have as well as what carriers run through them. Infact I believe they run to IAD and i know they serve CLT quite frequently with huge amounts of success.


We dont worry about small things like that...
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5212 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1672 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
but AHN-ATL really would make the most sense.

...which SO used to fly long ago with 2 Martin 404's a day.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1643 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 3):
Athens is way too close to Atlanta, Charlotte, Greenville, and many other cities to justify EAS subsidies. What a waste of money.



Quoting Ssides (Reply 11):
OK, I just checked and Athens-Clarke County has a population of approximately 175,000. It's only an hour and a half from ATL, a bit further to GSP and CLT.

Why in the world does this airport require an EAS subsidy? Coming from Texas, I know places like ABI, SJT, SPS and TYR, all of which are similarly-sized or smaller than Athens, don't require EAS subsidies for their service, and some of these cities do OK supporting RJ traffic.

What's the big deal with AHN? Should taxpayers really be subsidizing this service?

Think Athens is bad? Macon is even closer to metro ATL and they have EAS...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineA330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1551 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 13):
MCN might as well had not won the money. The DOT said that MCN cannot use the money to attract a competitor to DL's subsidized service.

That rule has only been in effect since 2007, and was not an issue in 2006 when AHN won its SCASD grant, which was explicitly to attract either Piedmont to CLT or American Eagle to DFW.



I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1496 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 16):
Think Athens is bad? Macon is even closer to metro ATL and they have EAS...

Incorrect. If going by airports, AHN is closer to ATL than MCN by 12 miles. If were going by nearest Metro County, Athens is closer, as Barrow County has a border with Clarke County, while Bibb County does not border any Metro County. The only thing that makes Macon closer to Atlanta is driving time. Macon has I-75 running through it, while Athens is connected to the interstate system via state and US highways.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1385 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 18):
Incorrect. If going by airports, AHN is closer to ATL than MCN by 12 miles. If were going by nearest Metro County, Athens is closer, as Barrow County has a border with Clarke County, while Bibb County does not border any Metro County. The only thing that makes Macon closer to Atlanta is driving time. Macon has I-75 running through it, while Athens is connected to the interstate system via state and US highways

The key was driving time. Your from Atlanta so you should know better. There is no way that you will be able to get to ATL from Athens faster than Macon. I live in McDonough and I make that treck quite often and it is not as bad as coming from the north to Atlanta.



What gets measured gets done.
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