LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16074 times:
The time has come for phase 1 of 'Open Skies', as of next weekend. This will be marked by the inauguration of US services from LHR by Continental, Delta, US Airways and Northwest Airlines.
Here are the schedules for next Sunday 30th March -
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15974 times:
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 1): It's more proper to call this an attempted invasion at the moment. It is yet to be seen any of these attempts will be successful.
Hence I said 'phase 1'. Looking at the schedules, it would appear that CO is most committed to making LHR work for them. Frequency and the use of 777's seems to confirm that. Still, early days yet, we'll see how it pans out.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5897 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 15646 times:
I don't get the thread title, are you suggesting that LHR was somehow protected turf, I thought that premise was dismissed as being a pipe dream.
My hope is that this will finally bring some sanity to those US carriers who somehow believe that LHR is the holy grail. Everyone seems to want the increased flights but expect prices to remain the same, will be interesting to see how the market is after 6 months. LHR with all its prestige has problems, and in this day of high fuel prices and long delays at security checkpoints, ground delays do take a toll on pax, its why some prefer the option of "other London airports", I think the mind set now is that if they have no choice where else will they go, they have to fly right?
Wish I was there to spot with you guys, short term this is the fun part.
ACW367 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 236 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15475 times:
Quoting Par13del (Reply 5): My hope is that this will finally bring some sanity to those US carriers who somehow believe that LHR is the holy grail.
Heathrow is considered the holy grail, because of the amount of other international carriers that fly in to it. Therefore pax flying from the US can interline to African or eastern European nations that have a pausity of service to the US.
Does anybody have a list of codeshare flights from LHR for these four carriers. It would really surprise me if KL flights out of LHR don't now have a NW codeshare number.
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15319 times:
Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 9): Interesting that CO is doing a nightstop, is that common for the American carriers or is this because of the lack of more suitable slots?
It's the only way US carriers can operate a daylight flight from the US. You'll find that AA night-stops too. Looking at the above schedule, DL will also be night-stopping an aircraft at LHR.
Quoting Par13del (Reply 5): I don't get the thread title, are you suggesting that LHR was somehow protected turf, I thought that premise was dismissed as being a pipe dream.
There's no 'suggestion' of LHR being protected turf, because LHR IS protected turf, until the end of the Bermuda II agreement.
However, I did not intend the thread title to allude to this - I was merely referring to the vast influx of U.S. carriers into LHR on the same day!
DTWAGENT From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15148 times:
Par13del. AA has the most flights to LHR from US cities. And UA is a close 2nd in flights. So the American invasion as you would put it, has been going on for a long time. I will be intresting to see how well AA and UA fair up with the other US carriers coming into LHR. They have had the choke hold on that airport for a long time. So we could see some price wars going on between everyone. This could get intresting....
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10188 posts, RR: 62 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14478 times:
Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 13): AA has the most flights to LHR from US cities. And UA is a close 2nd in flights.
United really isn't even close anymore.
This summer, AA will have 18 daily flights out of Heathrow compared with only 11 on United. In terms of capacity, the disparity is even larger: this summer, AA will offer a total of 31,112 seats/week at Heathrow, compared with 18,669/week on United - United will offer less than 60% of the weekly seats out of Heathrow as AA.
Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 13): I will be intresting to see how well AA and UA fair up with the other US carriers coming into LHR. They have had the choke hold on that airport for a long time. So we could see some price wars going on between everyone.
There will be competition, and fares/yields will come down as a result. But I doubt we'll see all that many "price wars" going on over the Atlantic to LHR. Remember - these incoming U.S. carriers have now spent tens (in some cases hundreds) of millions on these slots, and they're not going to be gung-ho to drop fares all that low. They have to pay off that investment in the slots, after all!
NYCAAer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 660 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14331 times:
This is going to be the biggest battle for the skies we've seen in a long time. I know at AA we're going to be fighting fiercely to keep our markets. When I inquired with local management if we might ever downgrade some of our off-peak flights to LHR to a 763, the answer was a resounding no. They want to keep as many 777s as possible for LHR.
I think I read here that UA is downgrading some flights out of ORD to LHR from a 772 to 763. This whole thing is gonna be a great thing to watch! Let the bloodbath begin!
BlackProjects From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 756 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14330 times:
Once Open Skies starts and Terminal 5 comes on line a lot of Chages will take place at Heathrow so any one knowing which terminal a certain Airline uses must update them selves as Dozens of airlines will be Switching locations in the next few weeks at Heathrow.
Enjoy the Madness that will snsue for the Spotters and Photogs expecting a machine to taxi to one termainal and se said machine go to a totaly diferent location.
Gilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2880 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14202 times:
Great to see all these US carriers starting non-stop service to the USA...
It will be interesting to see how they fair against flying head to head competition on many on these routes. Especially when many of these carriers offer a below par service to what the established carriers out of LHR are flying. Also due to the major slot restrictions at LHR, many of these carriers have purchased far from ideal timings for arriving and departing into London.
Im not sure how true it is, but a friend told me just flying LHR in its own right sells the tickets, and the service is secondary to many passengers. It remains to be seen.
For me, it is sad to see many of the LGW services operated by these arilines, being downgraded to narrow bodied aircraft and frequencies being cut.
(Never been a fan of the 757 across the pond, but thats to be discussed another day!)
But I suppose thats the way things go and LGW will always be in considered a secondary airport by many airlines and passengers a like. In AA's case, dropping LGW altogether!
Its interesting how US Airways gets on as they are very much, going it alone! NW, DL and CO have had a lot of assistance and help from AF and KL to get their LHR services up and running. Does anyone know if US will be code sharing their LHR-PHL services with any other Star Alliance carriers? It could be an opportunity for them to build up a relationship with BMI, but I think they are very much in bed with UA.
Also US Airways' CLT-LGW service is going to face a lot of competition from neighbouring RDU and ATL, which will all have direct LHR services by their respected hub airlines. I wonder if it will be a priority to switch CLT to LHR, when slots become available and US Airways has the funds to purchase them.
LHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 13998 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): Its interesting how US Airways gets on as they are very much, going it alone! NW, DL and CO have had a lot of assistance and help from AF and KL to get their LHR services up and running.
US Airways are actually getting assistance from UAL. DL is getting a lot of help from AFSL (Air France Services Ltd) and NW is working very closely with KGS (KLM Ground Services). However, NW isn't having any NW personnel at LHR - they only have a station manager who is a KGS employee.
DL does have their own employees, as does CO. Both carriers are working hard to get themselves ready for March 30th. CO has even trained KGS employees themselves, both in Newark and the UK. CO didn't want KGS training their own employees, they wanted them trained the 'CO way' and thus are conducting all their own training. CO also has their own Station Manager, Duty Managers and Lead Agents. They are also building their own ticket desk in Terminal 4.
Depending on what you mean by 'assistance and help', CO has only really had help with slots, as has the other carriers. Remember, CO paid $209 million for 56 weekly pairs of slots. Otherwise, CO and DL are definitely doing their own thing. US has UA and NW has (naturally) KLM.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5897 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 13977 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 16): There will be competition, and fares/yields will come down as a result. But I doubt we'll see all that many "price wars" going on over the Atlantic to LHR. Remember - these incoming U.S. carriers have now spent tens (in some cases hundreds) of millions on these slots, and they're not going to be gung-ho to drop fares all that low. They have to pay off that investment in the slots, after all!
How exactly are they going to increase availabe seats into a market - LHR - and not expect a reduction in price, collusion? The end point is LHR one of the busiest airports in Europe, American's are able to access LHR from all over the US, so this is not the opening up of a new market, it is only allowing pax into the market via another means, if price is not the driving issue, how much are present/new passengers willing to pay for the convenience of flying on your favorite airline, so far the market forces in the US usually end up going for price, loyalty not as much. Service may be a more defining factor for some pax, so unless those carriers with lower levels of service step up their product, they will have no option but to attract customers with something else, and since they cannot choose exactly when they fly into LHR, their only option will be price or some other gimmick. Next 6-12 months will be very interesting.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10188 posts, RR: 62 Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13857 times:
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): It will be interesting to see how they fair against flying head to head competition on many on these routes. Especially when many of these carriers offer a below par service to what the established carriers out of LHR are flying.
AA and UA have had an inferior inflight product to BA for years, now, and both seem to have done at least reasonably well at LHR up against BA.
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): Also due to the major slot restrictions at LHR, many of these carriers have purchased far from ideal timings for arriving and departing into London.
That's really only a problem for CO and DL and their EWR- and JFK-LHR schedules, respectively. CO's eastbound and westbound schedules to and from EWR are definitely far better than DL's schedule from JFK, though.
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): Does anyone know if US will be code sharing their LHR-PHL services with any other Star Alliance carriers? It could be an opportunity for them to build up a relationship with BMI, but I think they are very much in bed with UA.
US will no doubt be codesharing with bmi on their LHR services.
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): Also US Airways' CLT-LGW service is going to face a lot of competition from neighbouring RDU and ATL, which will all have direct LHR services by their respected hub airlines.
CLT will do just fine. It's a massive and growing market with important connections to global industries, especially financial services, insurance and banking. RDU and ATL have their own markets that serve their own local constituencies, and I doubt either will have any material impact on CLT.
Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 20): I wonder if it will be a priority to switch CLT to LHR, when slots become available and US Airways has the funds to purchase them.
When they can get slots, in due time, I'm sure CLT will switch to LHR. But it's certainly not as if the route will collapse without shifting to LHR immediately.
25 Swiftski: This is a particularly competitive slot, esp with VS operating twice at 16.00 to JFK and EWR and BA operating BA115 to JFK also at 1600. This one wil
26 LHR777: It wont - CO33 operates to IAH, not EWR. It was a typo. Please see replies 10 and 12 above. Moderators - can you please change this in the original p
27 Atmx2000: One way is if the UK carrier retreats completely, like BA at DTW, in the face of competition from NW, hub carrier based there. I expect BA might retr
28 CBPhoto: Anyone know what to expect of Terminal 4 right after the switchover? I am scheduled to fly CO29 on the 1st of April. Was curious if I should expect ca
29 AeroMojo: We call Night-Stops RON'S (Rest Over Night) Why is everyone so upset about U.S. carriers coming over? Nobody got nearly as upset when it was known EK
30 Par13del: Once this happens something has gotta give, LHR is already congested as it is and more flights there is not going to help the situation, irrespective
31 Daron4000: Well I think the first response to open skies is UA's reduction in service from ORD-LHR, where 2/3 flights will become 767's by June. While this may s
32 Theginge: The moves are taking place in very many stages over the next few years. I don't know of many apart from BA that are changing terminals in the next fe
33 Atmx2000: Elimination of short haul flights, or shifting of other flights to LGW will make room at LHR. What we will see is airlines optimizing their use of sl
34 LHR777: Who's upset? It's fair competition, and long overdue. I think RON is actually 'Remain Over Night'? I think you'll find that many people were upset ab
35 Commavia: I agree with most of what you say, but I would take issue with the above. While LHR may not have the same prominent focus within the UA system as it
36 Par13del: Except that US carriers are abandoning their service to the secondary London airports in droves, or at least they all plan on doing so now that they
37 Swiftski: Indeed. I read the correction then seemed to ignore it when replying. Oops.
38 Panamair: Interesting..are you sure DL will actually have their own ground staff at LHR? They don't have it today at LGW (the staff are in DL uniforms but they
39 BlackProjects: In the futture UA will head to T-1 it will not happen in years it will be in months. When BA bails from T-4 they will leave it to its new operators. A
40 AeroMojo: I think I didn't word myself properly or you misunderstood. I'm in total agreement with you that whats happening is great it just seems like theres a
41 LHR777: Absolutely positive, 100%. Not for everything, but they, like CO, do have their own management and supervisors. As stated above, their check-in is by
42 Viscount724: For U.S. carriers, I think the main attraction of LHR over LGW is higher yield since origin/destination business traffic prefers LHR to LGW. While LH
43 M180up: LHR - AMM* AMMAN, JORDAN LHR - BHD* BELFAST, UNITED KINGDOM LHR - DKR* DAKAR, SENEGAL LHR - ESB* ANKARA, TURKEY LHR - LBA* LEEDS, UNITED KINGDOM LHR
44 CO787EWR: CO is still flying to LGW and all the other secondary cities in England with the '57's.
45 Swiftski: You are misquoting. That reply wasn't me.
46 Super80DFW: You were mentioning all of the new airlines that arrive in Heathrow, but remember the airlines that were already there that are adding more service! S
47 Commavia: It's actually 2x daily to DFW now. Both 50/51 and 78/79 DFW-LON will be switch from LGW to LHR this Spring - 50/51 on 30 March, and 78/79 on 13 April
48 Anglo2: Details regarding the terminal switches: TI/T2/LHR East will be for Star Alliance eventually. T3 will be for Virgin and One World. T4 will be for Sky
49 LHR777: BA is moving their daily LGW-DFW and LGW-IAH operations to LHR T4 on March 30th. They then move again to T5 on April 30th. Note - LGW-ATL stays at LG
50 CO787EWR: Sorry I meant this and now its to late to edit CO is still flying to LGW and all the other secondary cities in England with the '57's.
51 Viscount724: It will be a challenge for BA pasengers departing LHR after T5 opens to ensure they wind up at the correct terminal. It's confusing enough now. With
52 LHR777: Here's the official LHR Terminal moves list, to avoid any confusion. Here's the complete list of new services to the U.S.A. from LHR this summer - Thi
53 ERJ170: Let me guarantee you that RDU service is daily.. I just verified on AA's website...
54 Commavia: Fascinating read there, under the "Reports/Statistics" tab on the left, and then under Heathrow. Some interesting information in the "LHR S08 Start o
55 Scotland1979: Was it because British Airways will end it service between LHR and DTW on March 29? And no service between LHR and DTW til May 2nd? Feel free to corr
56 Super80DFW: I'm not really correcting you, but adding on. IIRC, NW will still have service to LGW until May 2. So LHR wouldn't be served, but a London Airport wo
57 Joemugg: True. I'm a novice but for quite some time now I've read how congested and nightmarish Heathrow has become -- and more flights will not improve this
58 Commavia: Remember - flights at Heathrow are pretty much a zero-sum game nowadays because of the slot situation. There aren't really going to be more flights a
59 AT: Where are all these airlines getting the slots from?? Even though the restrictions have ended, the slots don't become available randomly... And what d
60 Commavia: These airlines are buying the slots off the open - albeit "gray" - market. Some are coming from joint venture alliance partners (some of Delta's slot
61 Misbeehavin: So here's what LHR - USA will look like in the summer Are my numbers off?
62 Vega: And... US's PHL-LHR flight (333) - the PHL-LGW flight (757) is being down gauged, but retained.
63 LHR777: I'm pretty sure you mean '2 by CO to EWR, 2 by DL to JFK'
64 CPH-R: Interesting graph, though is it just me or has SK been left out? They're currently operating out of T3 (which I believe is due to most pax transferri
65 LHR777: No, you're not blind mate, SK isn't on the chart. I think there are a couple of errors on there too, as I'm not sure IB is moving on September 17th 2
66 Kimberlyrj: Just a quite note, I think I can speak for Virgin Atlantic, American, United, British Airways & BMi and say BRING IT ON Open Skies is working both way
67 Sevenair: Are you for real? People didn't get upset about VX? You are completly and totally wrong. People were up in arms, particularly on here.
68 AeroMojo: Sorry I dont think i'm particularly wrong about all of it. Here where I work everyone here is kind of mellow about it with a wait and see attittude.
69 LHR777: Today is the day folks - CO28 is already on her way from EWR, as is CO4 from IAH, CO32 pushed-back 10 minutes ago and is taxiing... Happy 'Open Skies
71 AT: Yes, it seems that United's presence at LHR seems to be continuously eroding... Why is that? I thought it would be a very profitable route. Is it beca
72 BA: This significant influx of US flights to/from LHR as a result of the Open Skies agreement will have a positive effect on European, African, and Middle
73 Commavia: There are several factors. First and foremost, United faces stiff competition on its Heathrow routes from larger and more focus competitors who have
74 Commavia: Well, it looks like the first "Open Skies" flights have arrived: RDU Raleigh/Durham AA 174 American Airlines 6:55 AM 6:42 AM T-3 321 En Route Ontime 7
75 Panamair: I just got in on DL001 and as usual with LHR at this time of day, we were told to hold and circle for about 15-20 minutes. Eventually landed at 0900
76 GCT64: Of the new generation of LHR US airlines, CO was the first to arrive with N76010 landing as CO28 just before 0700. N76019 has also been and gone today
77 Jfk777: Given NWA & US are transfers from their own hubs with little copetition they will not effect things much. Delta and Continental will effect the curre
78 Burnsie28: I believe its actually an NW employee rather then KGS, the Station manager at KLM for NW is a NW employee as well. Obviously they work closely with K
79 AirCanada014: I wish all the new entrants good luck with the new flights and routes to LHR from the USA. I wonder if AC will use their 5th freedom and fly to LHR fr
80 Commavia: There's no need for AC to operate U.S.-LHR routes. The market is already well-served as it is, and doesn't need AC to further erode yields. UA isn't
81 Incitatus: Air France is way down the list, even when added up with Delta. Actually, Air France's presence at Heathrow this summer won't be too different from w
82 Surfpunk: It's rather strange seeing those flight numbers on NW Int'l flights, since they for many years assigned those numbers to flights between MSP-PHX. Use
83 Azjubilee: I think NWA is running out of flight numbers, hence the new 1XX series international numbers. There were only several pairs of numbers to use and give
84 LHR777: Here's a few pictures, taken on a Nokia mobile phone, from yesterday.
85 UAL777UK: How many slots do UA still have available to them albeit that they are leased out?
86 Commavia: I could be wrong - I don't remember for sure - but I believe United currently has three daily slot pairs leased out to other carriers: one each to BA
87 CoolGuy: There have always been 4 or fewer airlines on NYC-LHR. That was the main point of Bermuda II. I'm pleased to see some more competition in the JFK-LHR
88 EXAAUADL: So are all CO and DL flights transferring to LHR from LGW?
89 Delta787: Some but not all. DL will still have LGW flights from ATL, CVG, and JFK. CO continues to have flights from EWR and CLE to LGW.
90 NYC2theworld: No Continental will still be operating to LGW, and I believe the same holds true for Delta.
91 UAL777UK: I suspect your right, although subject to metal being available, I wonder if UA would ever go double daily on the DEN-LHR run, to me that could easil
92 Commavia: I'm not sure. UA hasn't been able to make LAX-LHR work with a seasonal second daily, and that is a market multiple times larger than DEN. On the othe
93 UAL777UK: Agreed. Thats maybe why they have been looking at the 777LR to add to the fleet. Thats after any merger idea goes out the window I might add.
94 Tonystan: OK, Im confused....SOOOOO.....Is Aer Lingus moving to T3 or not???? I have heard so many conflicting stories on this one yet noone from the BAA or EI
95 NW748i: They'd better get a move on then. If I recall correctly, Jet Airways will be bring in 777s this year. I think I heard something similar about Air Ind
96 Rivet42: Well, the reasons are pretty obvious - London-Paris is not as big a market as it was due to the Eurostar rail service (and it's recent improvement wi
97 Aisak: Although this hardly has anything to do with "US Carries Invede LHR", Aer Lingus is staying at T1 for the time being. They have the right facilities
98 Scorpy: I think commavia was referring to a nonstop flight from SFO rather than doing a one stopper through NRT or LHR
99 Commavia: I tend to agree. I'm not sure how AF will do on LAX-LHR. One thing's for sure: it will be interesting to watch, and the AF experience in the LAX-LHR
100 UAL777UK: Oh for UA to bring back round the world service again....those were the days! UA, non-stop to Bangalore from SFO would IMHO be a very lucrative route
101 Rivet42: To a degree, although BA has a 'natural' advantage against their European rivals in that they are offering a direct service from one of their most im
102 Incitatus: Yes that will be the absolute test. But judging from how it works on this side of the Atlantic, it will not last. LHR is a strong hub for BA and Delt
103 Azjubilee: I think AF will do quite well. Remember AF/KL, DL and NW are planning on a joint venture across the Atlantic much like NW/KL and as of this weekend DL
104 Apollo13: I heard that Air France will operate a flight from Heathrow to Los Angeles and that British Airways will do the same with Paris to LA or somewhere els
105 Commavia: The flight will be a 777, routed CDG-LAX-LHR-LAX-CDG. It will rotate from CDG through LAX to get to LHR, but it will be based at CDG. As for crew, I'
106 LHR777: I met the person and clarified this today. They're not a KGS (KLM Ground Services) employee, but they are a KLM Royal Dutch Airlines employee, hired
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