Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Hardstands Vs. Airbridge Deplaning At CDG-reasons?  
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 652 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Folks,

Just a weird bit of curiosity here...I have been reading trip reports to Europe and back...and one thing I noticed is that on long-haul flights from the USA (and elsewhere) that it really seems to be a toss up on arrival at European airports as to whether or not the arrival is hardstanded (and bussed) or deplaned via jetway. Particularly, I have noticed it seems to be more of a wildcard at CDG than at other airports, but can happen anywhere in Europe.

Can any of our friends at CDG (or other EU hubs) tell why certain flights get hardstanded but others are lucky enough to pull up to jetways on arrival in the EU? Obviously, LFCs such as FR or U2 don't count. Just wondering.

Thanks,

EMB170 (next flight to EU is in July on my honeymoon!!!)


Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Good question. Maybe it has something to do with scheduling, and instead of waiting for a gate, they just wind up having to do things the "old fashioned" way, as I call it. As an ex regional F/A, I can hear American pax compaining about not using a jet way. They complain enough about the few steps they have to climb on an EMB145, imagine all those steps on a wide body.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4065 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Two answers:
a) Airport capacity;
b) Expected length of use of an air bridge.

In other words, at some airports, there aren't enough air bridges to go around and give one for every plane. Airports try and use their limited resources in the most efficient way possible, so it isn't necessarily first-come first-served. A plane may be directed to a hard stand even though a bridge is available if it is expected that the plane is going to be on the ground for quite a while, say long enough that two other planes could have used the same available air bridge one after the other...

Airports in Asia, especially HKG, tend to send the plane to a gate and then tow the plane off to a remote parking if it's going to not be used for a long period of time in order to free up the bridge. Busy European airports tow less and send straight to a stand more. Why ? That I don't have a hard answer to, although if I had to guess, it'd be ground traffic and the cost of towing a plane around (equipment, staff, gas, insurance) vs sending the plane to a stand directly.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but hardstands as a back-up when air/jetbridges are not available really are the domain of three airports - London Heathrow, Paris CDG, and Frankfurt. I know there are more, but these are the high demand airports that for one reason or another have not, can not, or will not ever expand to meet the ever increasing requirements of all the airlines that want to fly to these three places.

Heathrow's T5 opening and subsequent further terminal replacements will slowly negate the need for remote stands, but until the work at Heathrow is done - possibly before Queen Elizabeth II turns 100 (but I wouldn't count on it!) - some flights will have to use them.

I have no knowledge of CDG other than the stories I've heard from firsthand reports and here at a.net. I'll refrain from speculation or comments as I'm REALLY in a glass house on this one. Those with experience should report.

Frankfurt was the primary gateway for Germany and has been unable to keep up with demand. As I understand it from a.net, German NIMBY's paralyze the process for expansion. Fortunately, MUC has been expanded, and possibly the new Berlin airport will pick up some of the slack. Until then, FRA will have to has some passengers in by remote stands.

What other European airports have large scale remote parking?



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2074 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

I have never arrived at a remote stand in Europe after a flight from the US. Transatlantically, I've arrived into LHR, MAN, DUB, BRU, CDG, FRA, ZRH and MAD, and always used a jetbridge. My impression has always been that transatlantic flights on the "home" airline (BA, Lufthansa, Air France) seem to be sent to remote stands far more often than a US airline like American, United, Delta, etc. However, I'm just positing based on what I've seen - I'm sure there have been US airlines which have parked remotely plenty of times.

That said, I've boarded at remote stands at lots of European airports - LHR, CDG, FRA, TXL, BUD, PRG, ZRH, MXP, MAD, LIS - but it was always on an intra-Europe flight (and always on a European "legacy" airline like BA, Swiss, Iberia, Malev, etc.)

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
What other European airports have large scale remote parking?

Madrid had quite a bit until the opening of Terminal 4 in early 2006. When I flew through MAD in December 2005, there were dozens of Iberia aircraft, both short- and long-haul, parked on the aprons beyond T1 and T2. Now that the new terminal is open almost every flight has a jetbridge. I imagine the situation in Barcelona will be similar when their new terminal opens next year.

CPH has quite a bit of remote parking, but it seems to be used mostly by SAS shorthaul flights on the Q400.

In contrast, Lisbon's remote stands (between the runways) are used almost exclusively by TAP and SATA widebodies. Narrowbodies use the contact terminal gates since the stands there are pretty small.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4025 times:



Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 2):
Busy European airports tow less and send straight to a stand more. Why ?

Capacity - and cost to the airlines. Gates are more expensive than remote stands.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but hardstands as a back-up when air/jetbridges are not available really are the domain of three airports - London Heathrow, Paris CDG, and Frankfurt.

I've been bussed to my plane at VIE, HAJ, CPH, MUC, ZRH and NUE as well...

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Frankfurt was the primary gateway for Germany and has been unable to keep up with demand. As I understand it from a.net, German NIMBY's paralyze the process for expansion. Fortunately, MUC has been expanded, and possibly the new Berlin airport will pick up some of the slack. Until then, FRA will have to has some passengers in by remote stands.

FRA still is the primary gateway, and I doubt that'll be changing anytime soon - MUC is still quite a bit smaller and simply isn't nearly as well placed within the country to replace FRA. As for Berlin's new airport - while the airport authority might still have that dream, in reality, BBI most likely won't play much more of a role than TXL, THF and SXF combined do today.

The expansion here at FRA is still not certain, but that's not just due to NIMBY's - that's due to politics as well. While the new runway is approved, there are still several court cases against it, or against the settlement between FRAport, Hessen and the surrounding communities... and a suit by LH and LH Cargo, though the latter isn't against the runway itself, but against the settlement (and agreed night curfew) between FRAport and the communities.

As for Terminal 3 - I think that's pretty much a go, not sure if there are any legal challenges against that still around.

The decision between gate and hardstand seems to be pretty much up to the airlines: on my flights to ZRH, LX always departs from a hardstand. On my flights to VIE, OS always departs from a gate... with LH, it's pretty much a 50:50 thing, regardless of the destination... though most - but certainly not all - LH longhauls use gates.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5527 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4012 times:



Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 4):

I have never arrived at a remote stand in Europe after a flight from the US.

I have at CDG many times. I have also in FRA and MAD. Is not uncommon and does happen.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1872 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

For CDG, it has always been a question of jetway availability (not enough gates with jetways) and no terminal designed for regional A/C. Things have gotten worse in 2004 or 2005 (can't remember exactly) when brand new term 2E collapsed. At that time about 50-60% of boarding was by bus !! Now the situation has really improved (I mean less boarding/deboarding by bus) since last summer with the opening of satellite S3. New satellites & terminals are being built and will continue to improve CDG operations.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3911 times:



Quoting EMB170 (Thread starter):
I have been reading trip reports to Europe and back...and one thing I noticed is that on long-haul flights from the USA (and elsewhere) that it really seems to be a toss up on arrival at European airports as to whether or not the arrival is hardstanded (and bussed) or deplaned via jetway.

If you don't like buses after longhaul flights, fly to AMS next next. Buses to/from widebodies at AMS are extremely rare. Only KL CityHopper flights using Fokker 50/70/100 and a few other carriers using small regional aircraft seem to use buses at AMS.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
I've been bussed to my plane at VIE, HAJ, CPH, MUC, ZRH and NUE as well...

At ZRH I have never been bused to a widebody flight. It's common for regional jets and props and a few other narrowbody jets. The same applies at MUC where I have only seen buses used for regional aircraft. In my experience FRA (by far) followed by CDG are the worst in Europe for the proportion of flights that require buses to/from the aircraft, and often widebodies. BA has also been bad at T4. Many flights there park at remote stands. That will be one T5 improvement.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7304 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

CDG will improve even more next month with the reopening of 2E. 80% of flights will then be airbridge operated.

There is no Regional Jet terminal, which is coming next. Hopefully all the E170 and ARJ services will be airbridge served from then onwards. I'm not sure if 2E is airbridge capable for ARJ's as CityJet moves there from April onwards.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3893 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
The same applies at MUC where I have only seen buses used for regional aircraft.

I've never flown in or out of MUC on anything below a widebody without being bussed to/from the aircraft - only on widebodies have I ever had a gate attached to the aircraft. B737s or A32S - always remote (in the case of my flights - I know that they use gates as well).

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
In my experience FRA (by far) followed by CDG are the worst in Europe for the proportion of flights that require buses to/from the aircraft, and often widebodies.

... and at least here in FRA, it annoys the hell out of me: about two thirds, if not more, of my flights begin with a remote stand, or end there in the evening when I get back home. Not that I ever enjoy it, but if I arrive back from LHR or VIE at something between 21:30 and 23:00, a bus ride accross the airport is the last thing I want to have.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6535 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3840 times:



Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 4):
I have never arrived at a remote stand in Europe after a flight from the US.

I have flown trans-atlantic on five times on NW and a twice on DL to CDG about seven times and have never had a jet bridge. Hopefully with new terminal reopening this will change.


User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3830 times:

When i arrived into LHR on a UA 777 i was bussed.
Also dubai was really bad when i was there.. there were a lot of planes without a gate (mostly EK)



-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3543 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
If you don't like buses after longhaul flights, fly to AMS next next. Buses to/from widebodies at AMS are extremely rare. Only KL CityHopper flights using Fokker 50/70/100 and a few other carriers using small regional aircraft seem to use buses at AMS.

LOL that's exactly where I'm flying next...on CO 70 out of EWR (for my honeymoon!) Then, on to ARN and back to EWR a week later.

I noticed that a lot of arrivals into CDG do get hardstanded. Myself when I arrived, I thankfully did get an airbridge (F-56). I was on an AF A332...possibly the aircraft was needed for a quick W. Africa/Middle East turn?



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3380 times:

In the mid 90's I arrived at FRA at 06:00 from BKK and got a hardstand. Furthermore, German immigration checked the passports of all pax before getting on the bus... heard something about this being done for flights arriving from specific cities and a loophole in German law which stopped people from declaring political asylum on the tarmac instead of the immigration desk.

Most annoying hardstand experience: arriving NAN on an FJ 747 and getting the hardstand instead of the vacant adjacent gate/jetway because of the aircraft maintenance requirements the next day (this was when their 2 744 utilization rates were very low and one 744 would just fly NAN-SYD or AKL a few times a week).


User currently offlineFlysherwood From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3352 times:

Can you imagine deplaning a full EK A380 at a hardstand? Holy cow that would take a lot of buses. I wonder how they will deal with that at NRT as they are only planning a couple of A380 jetways. If AF, EK, SQ and QF all get there around the same time. Lets not forget LH and BA.  Wink

User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1073 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

As a kind of related question: why are jetbridges more desirable than remote stands? Is it primarily for efficiency with passenger convenience as a secondary benefit or the other way around? Is weather a factor?

-IR


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3300 times:



Quoting IRelayer (Reply 16):
As a kind of related question: why are jetbridges more desirable than remote stands? Is it primarily for efficiency with passenger convenience as a secondary benefit or the other way around? Is weather a factor?

Much better service for passengers if they don't have to climb and descend stairs, often with heavy carry-on bags. Elderly or disabled passengers often can't manage stairs and extra staff is needed with hoists and other equipment when remote stands are used.. And when aircraft park at gates with a bridge you avoid the cost of the buses and drivers. It's also much faster for passengers if they can deplane into the terminal and be on their way instead than waiting on a bus for everyone else (or as many as the bus will hold) to deplane before the trip to the terminal. And, as you mention, if it's raining or snowing it's far more pleasant if you can avoid the weather. It only takes a few seconds to get soaked if it's raining heavily. I remember arriving on a flight somewhere a couple of years ago that parked at a remote stand where it was snowing and the ramp was very slippery. A few passengeres slipped and fell between the aircraft and the bus.

As far as other handling is concerned (catering, fuelling, baggage loading/unloading etc.) I don't think it makes much difference where the aircraft parks. It's mainly a passenger service issue.


User currently offlineGoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1872 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3225 times:



Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 14):
Furthermore, German immigration checked the passports of all pax before getting on the bus... heard something about this being done for flights arriving from specific cities and a loophole in German law which stopped people from declaring political asylum on the tarmac instead of the immigration desk.

This procedure is also very common at CDG for flights arriving from Africa, south-east Asia, China, etc in which illegal immigrants are likely. A 1st passport control occurs in the jetway.


User currently offlineTennis69 From Qatar, joined Apr 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3181 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

These are the airports that I can remember hardstanding at. It's not all that uncommon-

CDG (not every flight, but most)
LZO (every flight)
LAP (every flight)
SZX ( 6 times)
CAN (1 time)
HAN ( 3 times )
HUI (every flight)
DAD (every flight)
ALY (every flight)
LCR (every flight)
DOH (every flight)
CAI (7 times )
HRB (every flight)
AGS (every flight)
PVG ( 5 times )


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

I for one like the hardstands.

Even if it is raining.. which it usually isn't and you're only in it very briefly. As for snowing... not a problem at all, because if it is snowing extremely heavy, you're aircraft won't be going anywhere straight away regardless.

But seriously, I think there's nothing better then stepping out, and crisp cold night air hitting your face, and the smell of fresh jetfuel and the sound of the APU going at FRA, and even better if there's snow, right before you climb the stairs to a 744. The smaller jets it isn't quite so majestic but the sheer size of the widebodies have something of a dramatic effect if you start on the ground... and get to hear all the sounds and smells of the a/c as its being turned around. A small windowless tunnel just doesn't compare, even if it is warm.

At airports that don't require busses for remote stands, stairs are faster bordeing because they use both back and rear doors at the same time!


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

In FRA. less than half of the parking positions have jetways, so you have a 50% chance to get a free airport tour...

What I find more astonishing that even at airports that have jetways, at a gate that has a jetway, Passengers are sent over stairs down to the ground, walk to the plane and enter the plane via stairs, something happening at Stansted every time.


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1735 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3051 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 20):
I for one like the hardstands.

I enjoy it too, for the exact same reason: somehow, a nice moment to have a (short) close look at planes!


User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2940 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Much better service for passengers if they don't have to climb and descend stairs, often with heavy carry-on bags. Elderly or disabled passengers often can't manage stairs and extra staff is needed with hoists and other equipment when remote stands are used.. And when aircraft park at gates with a bridge you avoid the cost of the buses and drivers. It's also much faster for passengers if they can deplane into the terminal and be on their way instead than waiting on a bus for everyone else (or as many as the bus will hold) to deplane before the trip to the terminal. And, as you mention, if it's raining or snowing it's far more pleasant if you can avoid the weather. It only takes a few seconds to get soaked if it's raining heavily. I remember arriving on a flight somewhere a couple of years ago that parked at a remote stand where it was snowing and the ramp was very slippery. A few passengeres slipped and fell between the aircraft and the bus.

As far as other handling is concerned (catering, fuelling, baggage loading/unloading etc.) I don't think it makes much difference where the aircraft parks. It's mainly a passenger service issue.

I agree. I can't stand (no pun untended) hardstands. It's a royal pain in the neck, especially after a long flight. It's more convenient (also personally a little more welcoming)...and just think if you have a tight connection to make...I'd much rather the free airport tour from my plane as it taxies to/from an airbridge.  Wink



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Transfer At CDG Terminal 2D-2F posted Mon Mar 10 2008 09:29:09 by Derstatic
Air Astana Incident At CDG Jan 16? (Pic) posted Mon Feb 11 2008 04:02:06 by Ushermittwoch
Domestic Vs Intl Size At Largest US Carrier Hubs posted Thu Dec 20 2007 13:35:04 by WorldTraveler
Today! LY007 TLV To JFK Emergency Landing At CDG posted Sun Oct 28 2007 11:55:56 by Stevens91
Connecting At CDG posted Fri Oct 12 2007 10:12:21 by Flyinglen
Easy Jet To Move From T3 To T2B At CDG posted Tue Oct 9 2007 17:29:38 by Stevens91
What Terminal TAP At CDG posted Tue Oct 2 2007 05:26:22 by YYZRTW
Connecting At CDG posted Wed Aug 8 2007 18:15:15 by COrocks
A380 At CDG Today posted Fri Jun 1 2007 10:34:03 by GLA MD11
El Al Incident At CDG posted Thu Apr 19 2007 09:27:44 by Yago