Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Qantas Between JFK And LAX: Nonrev A Possibility?  
User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11999 times:

I have read several threads and posts on other websites about the QANTAS flights between JFK and LAX that either originate or end in SYD, depending on the direction. I am somewhat familiar with the fact that a person cannot book this flight without continuing to Australia on the same itinerary and air freedom rights/cabotage rules in general.

However, my question is are there any other ways to get on this flight? Can QANTAS take non-revs on this segment or can it take someone in the jump seat? This question seems to boil down to whether or not the issue is related to only ticketing a person or actually transporting passengers.

However, if a person is nonreving, I suppose they could book an itinerary to Australia and not take the second trip with much fewer ramifications than a revenue passenger.

Thanks!

Alex

[Edited 2008-03-24 13:53:56]


Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11924 times:

I don't even think you're allowed to Non-Rev JFK to LAX on an international carrier under the same rules.....

[Edited 2008-03-24 14:23:10]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11842 times:



Quoting Cactus742 (Thread starter):
However, my question is are there any other ways to get on this flight? Can QANTAS take non-revs on this segment or can it take someone in the jump seat?

No, QF can only take you between JFK and an international point or LAX and an international point but not between JFK and LAX. In all likelihood, they probably won't let you on in JFK unless they are absolutely sure they can transport you beyond LAX, so if the flight out of LAX is overbooked but not oversold, you won't get on in JFK even if there are enough no shows in LAX to free up a seat.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAzncsa4qf744er From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11844 times:

Same rules apply even for Non-revs. Not allowed! Everyone's on here already know Qantas's doesn't have 5th freedom rights to pick up local passengers. The only time non-revs can be accommindated is when they hold XXX/JFK or JFK/XXX (X-Aussie Cities)

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4298 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 11737 times:



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 3):
Everyone's on here already know Qantas's doesn't have 5th freedom rights to pick up local passengers. The only time non-revs can be accommindated is when they hold XXX/JFK or JFK/XXX (X-Aussie Cities)

Easy there - it sounds like you are jumping down the OP's throat for asking a perfectly reasonable question.
Now he, and the rest of us who may have been familiar with 5th freedom rights but not how they apply to non-revs, get the picture.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 11728 times:

I won't disagree w/ what QF employees may say is QF policy but technically, carriage of true non-rev employee passengers (no fare at all) is considered permissible under most worldwide treaties. There is no cabotage if the passenger pays nothing and the passenger is an employee. Generally a service charge to the airline which is not related to passenger fares (ie just a pass service/usage charge is permitted). This of course does not allow any reduced rate agreements which are the basis of most interline NRSA benefits or buddy pass type travel, all of which require some type of fare, at least in the US based on IRS regulations.

Some airlines have permitted carriage of true non-rev passengers between two foreign points but generally only if both stops are board/off points for revenue passengers since there are a host of other issues involved in allowing passengers to board/deplane at any point on a flight.


User currently offlineAirnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 11716 times:

Hey Alex,

The answr i know of is NO, unless you are originating

Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 3):
Same rules apply even for Non-revs. Not allowed! Everyone's on here already know Qantas's doesn't have 5th freedom rights to pick up local passengers. The only time non-revs can be accommindated is when they hold XXX/JFK or JFK/XXX (X-Aussie Cities)

It doesnt have to be Aussie cities mate...it can be LHR etc...just an international destination. Alot of passengers take this flight on ONEWORLD tickets.

Cheers


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 11627 times:



Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 6):
It doesnt have to be Aussie cities mate...it can be LHR etc...just an international destination. Alot of passengers take this flight on ONEWORLD tickets.

Just be *really* careful and have a back up because these flights in particular may be subject to the ticket agent's knowledge or mood of the day.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7812 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 11606 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
No, QF can only take you between JFK and an international point or LAX and an international point but not between JFK and LAX. In all likelihood, they probably won't let you on in JFK unless they are absolutely sure they can transport you beyond LAX, so if the flight out of LAX is overbooked but not oversold



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 3):
Same rules apply even for Non-revs.

Not true, Ive done it. I work for a company that has a very close relationship with QF and they allow us to nonrev from LAX to JFK as long as its arranged a couple of months out. And even then they wont confirm it until 48 hours before.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11587 times:



Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 6):
It doesnt have to be Aussie cities mate...it can be LHR etc...just an international destination. Alot of passengers take this flight on ONEWORLD tickets.

Are you saying that a revenue passenger can use QF LAX-JFK if they are connecting at JFK to, for example, AA JFK-LHR?

It was my understanding that QF could only carry LAX-JFK-LAX traffic if the passenger was arriving on or departing on a QF flight on the preceding or following international sector. Since QF doesn't operate transatlantic from JFK, wouldn't that prevent LAX-originating passengers from using QF LAX-JFK on that routing?

Using a similar example westbound, do you mean that you can book QF JFK-LAX and connect to JL LAX-NRT or to CX LAX-HKG?

Those situations would be very unusual where domestic traffic carried by a foreign carrier is concerned. Restrictions on those types of services usually say that the carrier can carry only THEIR OWN connecting or stopover traffic.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11570 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Not true, Ive done it. I work for a company that has a very close relationship with QF and they allow us to nonrev from LAX to JFK as long as its arranged a couple of months out. And even then they wont confirm it until 48 hours before.

Many moons ago when QF served SFO-HNL-SYD, non revs could ride on the SFO-HNL sector as many of us did so before DL started Hawaii service.


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11523 times:

Ok, I might be confusing my terms here, but if QF have an FA who needs to travel between LAX-JFK (either direction) as they will be servicing a different flight, maybe standing in for a different FA who is sick would this be regarded as non-reving and if so, why would they not be able to fly on a QF aircraft between these two cities? Would they need to go AA or something else instead? Or is there another term used in this specific instance.

Just seeking clarification.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11397 times:



Quoting Jbernie (Reply 11):
Ok, I might be confusing my terms here, but if QF have an FA who needs to travel between LAX-JFK (either direction) as they will be servicing a different flight, maybe standing in for a different FA who is sick would this be regarded as non-reving and if so, why would they not be able to fly on a QF aircraft between these two cities? Would they need to go AA or something else instead? Or is there another term used in this specific instance.

Just seeking clarification.

QF doesn't fly on from JFK for starters. Duty travel for QF employee's is considered different than other types of travel. In your example, the FA would then be operating from LAX to somewhere (AKL, SYD, MEL, BNE) so there is no problem there (although they would of course have a layover slip in LAX first).

Basically as the FA is an employee and QF counts duty travel as working, then that FA is in actual fact working that flight and is not a revenue passenger as such.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineAzncsa4qf744er From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11278 times:



Quoting Richierich (Reply 4):
Easy there - it sounds like you are jumping down the OP's throat for asking a perfectly reasonable question.
Now he, and the rest of us who may have been familiar with 5th freedom rights but not how they apply to non-revs, get the picture.

My apology I didn't mean to be on that level on tone. : )

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Not true, Ive done it. I work for a company that has a very close relationship with QF and they allow us to non-rev from LAX to JFK as long as its arranged a couple of months out.

The agreement is done through local management. Technically not suppose to but local management wanted be nice to "the vendor" so they'll let it slide.


User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11247 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
I don't even think you're allowed to Non-Rev JFK to LAX on an international carrier under the same rules.....

Hmm. I think the opposite.

I rode TG from IAH (or was it DFW) to YVR MANY MANY years ago as a non-rev.

But I cannot speak with any authority on the subject.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11229 times:



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 14):
Hmm. I think the opposite.

I rode TG from IAH (or was it DFW) to YVR MANY MANY years ago as a non-rev.

That is an intl sector between 2 countries... USA and Canada. We are talking about from LAX-JFK



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7812 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11211 times:



Quoting Azncsa4qf744er (Reply 13):
The agreement is done through local management. Technically not suppose to but local management wanted be nice to "the vendor" so they'll let it slide.

Im not sure about the rules of it, all I know is that ive done it a couple of times (flown LAX-JFK roundtrip on QF).



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAzncsa4qf744er From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11178 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
Im not sure about the rules of it, all I know is that ive done it a couple of times (flown LAX-JFK roundtrip on QF).

Yep, I know.....


User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1525 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

When Garuda used to fly to the States, we were known for the Non-Revs between LAX and HNL.
We had the last flight of the night between the two cities. There was a service charge, but basically
any airline employee could use the service. In fact GARUDA stood for
Good And Reliable Upgrades Definitely Available for the non-revs.
I'm sure the same applies to JFK/LAX on QF. Its not well known, but if your an airline employee
paying the service charge or no charge depending you probably can get on the flight. More than
likely that would be up to the Station Manager whether or not to accept the traffic.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineAirnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2544 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11030 times:

Correct, You can fly for instance...Australia-LAX-JFK and then onto LHR on BA...

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10956 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 8):
Not true, Ive done it.

No foreign airline is allowed to take revenue for the transport of passengers within the United States, whether full fare or nonrev. It's like speeding, you may have done it, but it's not allowed.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10876 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
It's like speeding, you may have done it, but it's not allowed.

So if it was done in the past, it could probably be done in the future whether or not it's allowed... right?



Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
User currently offlineB707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10315 times:

Yes, it's doable, whatever the rules. Non-rev travel often supercedes rules.

User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9905 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
No foreign airline is allowed to take revenue for the transport of passengers within the United States, whether full fare or nonrev. It's like speeding, you may have done it, but it's not allowed.

That's very contradictory, they arnt allowed to take revenue including the non revenue? Im sure that's not quite right. I dont know much about non reving but it seems to me that it would just be alot of hassle to get that 1 or 2 people off the flight at LAX.

Fred


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17827 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9748 times:

Quoting Cactus742 (Reply 21):
So if it was done in the past, it could probably be done in the future whether or not it's allowed... right?

Sure, I'd just be very careful. For instance I flew NGONRT the other day on NW as a nonrev in order to connect to another international flight out of NRT. A colleague of mine tried the same thing and was not allowed because it was a domestic flight within Japan, so it all depends on the rules plus which employees you run into. On the other hand I tried to nonrev on CI's IAH-SEA-TPE, but I couldn't et on IAHSEA because SEATPE was overbooked, even though my friend got on the flight out of SEA and there were plenty of seats once the plane got to SEA.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 23):
That's very contradictory, they arnt allowed to take revenue including the non revenue?

Nonrevenue doesn't necessarily mean zero revenue; QF, for instance, can't charge a $5 fee plus taxes for a nonrev between two domestic points in the US. Perhaps it can transport a nonrev for $0 but I doubt it for anyone other than QF staff.

[Edited 2008-03-25 06:19:38]


E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Richierich : Interesting thread... at least the OP spelled 'Qantas' correctly!
26 DiscoverCSG : I was thinking the same thing ... there's a silver jet engine on every red-and-white kangaroo airplane.
27 JoePatroni : The airline I work for cannot sell a revenue ticket from say, SFO-YYZ-LGA because it's considered cabotage. However, as a non-rev, I fly it all the ti
28 Maverick623 : It would technically be considered deadheading, which is a bit different than pleasure travel.
29 WorldTraveler : once again, as long as no FARE is involved, it is permissible for non-revs to fly on any carrier within the US, and usually on foreign carriers withi
30 Viscount724 : I think that would be mandatory. Otherwise they couldn't board any passenges from LAX to JFK who arrived on another QF flight perhaps several days ea
31 MaverickM11 : All passengers must clear customs at the first port of entry in the US.
32 TymnBalewne : QF can issue a zero fare ticket for non-rev and that's permissible. It's even permissible if it's a zero fare but a service charge is collected. ZED f
33 WorldTraveler : I believe it is permissible not to clear customs at the first stop of the aircraft if the passengers do not deplane and no local passengers are board
34 TymnBalewne : I thought "Progressive Clearance" was done away with, much to the chagrin of international carriers.
35 AirNZ : You've completely lost me and I'm not sure what you mean at all. I would certainly not envisage otherwise that any one (non-rev or not) would not be
36 WorldTraveler : it is not a given that a carrier has set up all formalities for local passengers. There are aircraft that arrive at a station after TSA or the local e
37 Cactus742 : Over the past few days, QF108 has been arriving at LAX in the 9pm-10pm range; it departs for SYD around 12am. Not being allowed to deplane for two ho
38 Phatfarmlines : What do you explain to Canadian customs about this unusual itinerary?
39 Teamspeedy : Incoming QF107 passengers from SYD arrive, clear customs & immigration at T4. Passengers continuing on to JFK then clear security at T4 and wait for
40 Post contains images JoePatroni : Well, in YYZ for example, Terminal 1 features a new Transit area so anyone making a USA-YYZ-USA connection can bypass Canadian customs completely. Ho
41 Viscount724 : It's not actually a very unusual itinerary. SFO-YYZ-LGA is only 26 nm further than a nonstop SFO-JFK, shorter than many connecting routings via U.S.
42 Gemuser : What about a pax who wants to fly (for whatever reason) LAX-QF-JFK-BA-LHR, would that be permitted? Gemuser
43 LAXdude1023 : They dont charge us a dime.
44 Viscount724 : I am sure the answer is no since QF can only carry their own connecting or stopover traffic on the domestic sector, meaning there must be a QF intere
45 Gemuser : I am pretty sure you are wrong, see reply 19. I know this is wrong. When QF & BA operated as above I booked tickets SYD-QF-HNL-BA-LAX-BA-JFK-QF-LHR f
46 Viscount724 : That may have been an exception since QF and BA operated some type of cooperative service then. At least they included each other's schedules in thei
47 Gemuser : Sorry, my mistake, I ment reply 6, which says: Which certainly suggests it not just QF flights and not just Oz cities. In fact it suggests that you c
48 Airnewzealand : Hey Gemuser, Sorry my post was confusing at first, Viscount has stated it clearly. (Ive just returned from a trip- late reply) You can use the QF sec
49 Gemuser : Thank you for the clarafication Airnewzealand! Gemuser
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Terminal Ownership In JFK And LAX posted Fri Feb 23 2007 00:06:35 by Kaitak744
How Is The New UA 752 Service Bwt. JFK And LAX/SFO posted Wed Apr 6 2005 03:33:47 by Jdwfloyd
Extending AirTrain Between JFK And LGA posted Sun Dec 19 2004 21:12:22 by Rjpieces
Thai Reducing Flights Between BKK And LAX! posted Sat Mar 27 2004 07:14:37 by Fuffla
Flown SQ A345 Between SIN And LAX Yet? posted Mon Feb 16 2004 20:42:07 by Airplanetire
Will UAL Reinstate Service Between HKG And Lax? posted Thu Apr 11 2002 07:08:39 by United Airline
UAL's New Flight Between JFK And HK. posted Mon Oct 9 2000 15:32:17 by United Airline
More Seats Between ACV, RDD And LAX posted Wed Jan 30 2008 22:58:39 by AirlineBrat
Aviacsa Plans MTY-JFK And GDL-LAX posted Fri Jan 4 2008 11:22:20 by LAXintl
Transaero Plans Service To LAX, JFK, And MIA posted Tue Sep 11 2007 17:50:49 by MAH4546
How Is The New UA 752 Service Bwt. JFK And LAX/SFO posted Wed Apr 6 2005 03:33:47 by Jdwfloyd
Extending AirTrain Between JFK And LGA posted Sun Dec 19 2004 21:12:22 by Rjpieces
Thai Reducing Flights Between BKK And LAX! posted Sat Mar 27 2004 07:14:37 by Fuffla
Flown SQ A345 Between SIN And LAX Yet? posted Mon Feb 16 2004 20:42:07 by Airplanetire
Will UAL Reinstate Service Between HKG And Lax? posted Thu Apr 11 2002 07:08:39 by United Airline
UAL's New Flight Between JFK And HK. posted Mon Oct 9 2000 15:32:17 by United Airline
More Seats Between ACV, RDD And LAX posted Wed Jan 30 2008 22:58:39 by AirlineBrat
Aviacsa Plans MTY-JFK And GDL-LAX posted Fri Jan 4 2008 11:22:20 by LAXintl