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Is Seattle A Focus City, Slowly Becoming A Hub?  
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9821 times:
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With the intro of SEA-LHR coming and the rumor floating around that the Seattle gateway will get more nonstops to Asia and Europe when the 787 arrives, is it possible that Seattle/Tacoma is getting close to laying the goround works for being a hub in the future if NWA decides to go it alone? We're still anemic to the hubs status, but as time goes on, is it possible that Seattle might be positioned as a hub for us at somepoint?


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61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

No.

It will continue to develop as a focus city built on the AS/QX hub, but NW will never be able to duplicate the feed and build a respectable feeder operation.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9803 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9751 times:

As far as the legacy carriers go, I think NW could continue to grow SEA some. We could get HKG or KIX or maybe even China nonstop. UA pulled most of its routes out of seattle. They stopped their non hub routes like ANC and JFK. They also have seriously cut down frequencies. HNL is seasonal with low frequency, LHR is gone, but at least UA has NRT. However SEA has a lot of companies and high yield travelers that aren't stuck with a single airline.

Unlike most cities of its size, SEA doesn't have a fortress hub from a legacy carrier. Yes AS has a huge presence, but they are extremely weak beyond the west coast. Anyone wanting to fly international or to the eastern half of the country (apart from the big cities) needs to fly on another airline. Also AS doesn't have a full alliance partnership, so there are high yielding flyers to be got! I think NW will continue to take some of UA's elite members from SEA. The only problem is that they need to serve LAX and SFO with their own metal in my opinion.



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User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7429 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9688 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
We could get HKG or KIX or maybe even China nonstop.

That's what we've been hearing at Inflight. SEA-PEK/HKG as well as KIX maybe coming back. There are even rumblings of us serving SEA-ANC again which the reason I bring this up. If AS is serving SEA-HNL, doesn't that violate the non-compete agreement(I've heard there is one) between AS and NWA?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
I think NW will continue to take some of UA's elite members from SEA. The only problem is that they need to serve LAX and SFO with their own metal in my opinion.

It's been the chief reason we've been securing booking contracts with business's here and in PDX



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User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9634 times:

SEA was a hub for NW at one point, as was BOS. SEA is sort of like BOS- it's in an ideal location for international flights (BOS to Europe, SEA to Asia), it has a lot of O&D (BOS would have more O&D but it's closer to big cities), and it isn't dominated by a single carrier. Both cities are places that seem like they should be hubs but for some reason are not.


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User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9621 times:

NW could grow at SEA, but making it a hub is highly unlikely (unless if they maybe acquire AS or something).

They would need to add several routes to Asia and maybe a couple dozen around the western US for it to even start resembling a place pax would make connections. As things are now, the only realistic connections on NW through SEA are between Hawaii and LHR / AMS or between IND / MEM and NRT. And even those are not always possible in both directions.


User currently offlineThreeIfByAir From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9542 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
If AS is serving SEA-HNL, doesn't that violate the non-compete agreement(I've heard there is one) between AS and NWA?

That has always been a tacit "gentlemen's agreement" right? AS just happens to not fly the routes NW does. A formal agreement to not compete would be collusion.

Only MSP has any significant O&D from SEA anyways - DTW (and MEM) are fairly small markets where AS competition would not make sense.


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 9485 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
If AS is serving SEA-HNL, doesn't that violate the non-compete agreement(I've heard there is one) between AS and NWA?

NW doesn't fly ANC-HNL any longer.


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9356 times:

I think SEA will be dependent on foriegn airlines for many of its international non-stops. U.S. carriers are barely staying afloat and concentrating on consolidation at the moment. I think courtship of foriegn airlines at SEA is the best bet for increasing international service as they experience greater growth and bountiful profit margins.


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User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3133 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9343 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
If AS is serving SEA-HNL, doesn't that violate the non-compete agreement(I've heard there is one) between AS and NWA?

I don't think there's any such non-compete agreements. In fact, I would guess that these would be illegal if they existed.

But with that said, I could see NW adding further long-haul at SEA. As you mention, HKG and KIX seem the most likely. I also wouldn't be surprised by PEK/PVG, even though SEA will already be served by Chinese carriers on these routes. Then there's the longshot of SEA-SYD, which I think could potentially work (with the 787) but I don't think it's as likely.

A full-fledged hub is unlikely given SEA's location - ok for Asia but poor for domestic connections. NW wouldn't add much that other carriers don't already offer. However, SEA could be considered a hub for SkyTeam if NW wanted to codeshare with DL/CO. Consider the SkyTeam service already here:

DL - JFK, ATL, SLC, CVG, LAX
CO - EWR, IAH, CLE
NW - NRT, AMS, LHR, HNL, DTW, MEM, MSP, IND, OGG/KOA
AF - CDG
AM - MEX
CI - TPE
KE - ICN


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13740 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9163 times:
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Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
If AS is serving SEA-HNL, doesn't that violate the non-compete agreement(I've heard there is one) between AS and NWA?

No such agreement exists.

AS maintains that it's their right - just as it's the right of every airline - to try and compete by offering service to and from their major hubs, no matter who their partnerships are with. Just look at CO and NW - they're partners, but it doesn't preclude NW from offering MSP-EWR service any more than it keeps CO from offering IAH-DTW service.

So SEA-HNL is absolutely fair game for AS.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8865 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Unlike most cities of its size, SEA doesn't have a fortress hub from a legacy carrier. Yes AS has a huge presence, but they are extremely weak beyond the west coast. Anyone wanting to fly international or to the eastern half of the country (apart from the big cities) needs to fly on another airline. Also AS doesn't have a full alliance partnership, so there are high yielding flyers to be got!

AS gets close, however, thanks to all of their partnerships with One World and Sky Team airlines. So you can "earn and burn" on the AS Mileage Plan to much of the world.


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 8844 times:
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Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
A full-fledged hub is unlikely given SEA's location - ok for Asia but poor for domestic connections.

I think a full-fledged hub in SEA for NWA is out of the question simply because SEA just doesn't have the room at this point. I think SEA has enough problems accommodating the airlines they have now...and there's more to come, LH comes 3/30 and Hainan Airlines (can't remember the new name) starts in June.

According to Vladavia's website, they apparently are still working on flying to SEA.

I would love to see JAL or ANA here.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8635 times:
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Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
I would love to see JAL or ANA here.

About two years ago there were somewhat rampant rumors about NH launching SEA-NGO (to support the 787 program?), but I am guessing UA's SEA-NRT and SEA-SFO-NGO service is considered sufficient.

NH will certainly not launch SEA-NRT unless it is to replace UA. JL might consider it, but JL is one of the few major OneWorld carriers AS doesn't codeshare/partner with, so it would have to be pure O&D demand.

[Edited 2008-03-25 08:30:39]

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8437 times:



Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
I think a full-fledged hub in SEA for NWA is out of the question simply because SEA just doesn't have the room

In the early 1980's, I remember flying NW DC-10's from LAX to SEA, and 727's from SFO to SEA, flew a 707 from GEG after visiting the World Fair there.
Not only there is no room, but the competition in the SEA market is much tougher than it was twenty years ago.


User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8226 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Also AS doesn't have a full alliance partnership, so there are high yielding flyers to be got!



Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
AS gets close, however, thanks to all of their partnerships with One World and Sky Team airlines. So you can "earn and burn" on the AS Mileage Plan to much of the world.

As Stitch stated earlier, AS has no problem acquiring and maintaining high yielding flyers. The following is a list of all their partnerships where Mileage Plan members can "earn and burn"

Air France
American
British Airways
Cathay Pacific
Continental
Delta
Horizon
KLM
LAN Chile
Northwest
Penair
Qantas

I have an AS mileage plan, and really no need to get any other.  Big grin


User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7624 times:
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Quoting AS777 (Reply 15):
As Stitch stated earlier, AS has no problem acquiring and maintaining high yielding flyers. The following is a list of all their partnerships where Mileage Plan members can "earn and burn"

Air France
American
British Airways
Cathay Pacific
Continental
Delta
Horizon
KLM
LAN Chile
Northwest
Penair
Qantas

I have an AS mileage plan, and really no need to get any other.

I'm kind of hoping they'll include Lufthansa and Hainan.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7308 times:
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Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 16):
I'm kind of hoping they'll include Lufthansa and Hainan.

AS does not partner with any Star carriers (and is unlikely to while UA is strong on the West Coast), so LH is almost assuredly not going to happen.

Since Hainan is a free-market player, it might happen...


User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7218 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
Consider the SkyTeam service already here:

DL - JFK, ATL, SLC, CVG, LAX
CO - EWR, IAH, CLE
NW - NRT, AMS, LHR, HNL, DTW, MEM, MSP, IND, OGG/KOA
AF - CDG
AM - MEX
CI - TPE
KE - ICN

Add flights to ANC on CO.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9803 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7099 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 14):
Not only there is no room, but the competition in the SEA market is much tougher than it was twenty years ago.

Yes but the population and wealth of the city has skyrocket since then.

SEA did have plan for a whole new terminal before 9/11.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6970 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 19):
SEA did have plan for a whole new terminal before 9/11.

The A terminal is new. And C and D terminals were renovated in the past decade or two. Be nice if they replaced the North and South Satellites with something fresher...


User currently offlineRentonView From United States of America, joined May 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 6795 times:

From what I've read, it looks like a slight expansion and makeover of the South Satellite terminal is planned for 2012-2014. That place definitely needs some help getting up to 21st Century standards, although I have to say, the International Arrivals Hall below it is certainly a lot nicer now. The need to re-check bags really must be dealt with, though, and it looks like the two most likely options would be to build a new pedestrian tunnel from International Arrivals to the main terminal, or add a non-secure train to the main terminal. That sounds kind of messy, but maybe it would work.

It's really too bad that Concourse A didn't become a new international terminal. It's beautiful.

All in all, I'm really pleased by the improvements and new service at SEA. A new NW flight to HKG on a 787 would be icing on the cake -- I know the publishing company I work for would make use of it (to the detriment of BR, unfortunately).


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3133 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5524 times:



Quoting RentonView (Reply 21):
or add a non-secure train to the main terminal.

There is now a non-secure car on the train for local pax that don't go through security after customs. However, you still have to put your checked luggage on a conveyor belt to pick up at the main terminal. Luckily, this usually beats me to the main terminal and the wait (if any) is a lot shorter than usual.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9803 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5378 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
The A terminal is new. And C and D terminals were renovated in the past decade or two. Be nice if they replaced the North and South Satellites with something fresher...

When the new A terminal was being proposed, there was also a proposal for a north terminal. This would have been located where some of the cargo terminals are now. I think they would have moved AS cargo somewhere in order to add 15-20 gates at a separate terminal connected by a train to the main terminal. After 9/11 this idea went away.

SEA does have a few gates to play with. Concourse B is underutilized, but it is only time before AS and QX takeover there. I think SEA is good for about 10 years. However, I don't know how utlized the international gates are. The S-Satellite might be getting a bit crowded, but of course modifications will be made since those are the money maker gates that are essential to the airport.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31387 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5213 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
When the new A terminal was being proposed, there was also a proposal for a north terminal. This would have been located where some of the cargo terminals are now.

The light rail link was supposed to terminate there, correct?


25 Baw716 : I think "hub" is the wrong term. Focus city is more accurate, since the carriers in SkyTeam are placing a lot more lift here (AF last year, NW SEA-LHR
26 RwSEA : No, the idea was always the current location. This way non-airport pax can also use the link (such as office workers on International Blvd) Here's wh
27 Wedgetail737 : I only agree with you to some point. With WN, CO, HA and some QX, I think Concourse B has sufficient traffic. The only gates I can foresee anyone els
28 Wedgetail737 : That's not a bad plan. The cargo areas could be consolidated.
29 EVA777SEA : Or they could just expand the South Satellite, which if you look at their 2020 master plan, is in the books already. The problem before was not gate
30 Post contains images BAW716 : Ah...and where would you put cargo?? With the 3rd runway going in across the way, there is no room on the west side of the airport. Unfortunately, we
31 Stitch : Perhaps move SK and LH's departures to N9? The old UA International First Lounge can be re-opened as the Star Alliance First and Business Class lounge
32 Wedgetail737 : Do those facilities still exist? I haven't seen those signs in N-concourse since the 1980's. With the international airlines stacking up to serve SEA
33 Chugach : Codeshare with AS aside, I've always been a little surprised that NW doesn't send a 753 or 319 on an ANC turn from SEA. They've got enough of a FF ba
34 Wedgetail737 : Why, when passengers can connect to one of 1000 AS flights to ANC from SEA.
35 RoseFlyer : WN would never want to move to A. First off, many of the gates are designed to support widebodies and are wasted with 737s. Also WN likes cheap gates
36 ER757 : I agree - most times when I'm there before a flight and take a walk, the A gates are pretty wide open. I think the idea of moving international fligh
37 Chugach : Because not everybody out there wants to take one of the 1000 AS flights to ANC, especially when AS is the least cost-effective option from a consume
38 Wedgetail737 : I guess NW could take over the service gap left by UA leaving the route. They could fly the SEA-ANC route using 757 equipment during the summer and A
39 Chugach : I don't believe so; I know DL does, though.
40 Flysherwood : Why wouldn't they codeshare? They are both members of Skyteam. I could see them turning SEA into the Pacific "hub" once the 787's start arriving. It
41 Chugach : AS isn't in Skyteam.
42 Gigneil : I guess its not unreasonable to wonder if Northwest Airlines might ever offer significant service to, you know, an airport in the Northwest. NS
43 BAW716 : One problem...there is no FIS facility for the A concourse and there is no place to put one there. Expanding the existing South Satellite FIS facilit
44 Wedgetail737 : No, but you could hollistically put international departures at the N terminal for LH and SK. UA moves 777's from S to N daily.
45 Sxf24 : Moving international departures to N does little to create additional capacity for international arrivals, which is the critical challenge.
46 Wedgetail737 : I understand. Just look for the S-gates to become more and more crowded.
47 Therock401 : Good to see that the south sattelite is going to get some work done to it soon. I've flown 6 segments out of there in the past year, and the interior
48 Post contains images Flysherwood : This was in response to reply #37 asking if CO and NW codeshare on ANC-SEA.
49 Wedgetail737 : Would it be a good idea for NW to move their domestic departures to a different terminal, thus making more room for international departures?
50 PlanesNTrains : While it likely wouldn't happen, it might make sense in the long term to swap things around by putting AS/QX at A and B, giving them the premier termi
51 Post contains images Hamlet69 : As do I. Used to love to go there and spend an afternoon just spotting. Regards, Hamlet69
52 Post contains images Chugach : Excuse me for misreading. NW may very well codeshare, and it makes that they would, with CO on SEA-ANC, but the NW flight number doesn't show up on t
53 ER757 : Yeah, same here. I wonder if there's any chance of them opening a new one after the 3rd runway opens. The space currently occupied by the Port of Sea
54 Post contains images AirframeAS : Yes, they did. This was explored in the mid-1990's to expand the North Satellite and demolish the Air Cargo area. The idea was to make it a "Satellit
55 Sxf24 : Those cars are actually secure, they are post-security and always have been. Since passengers clearing customs have access to checked luggage, they a
56 Post contains images AirframeAS : I dont know what train you are talking about, all trains operating at SEA are past the security checkpoint downstairs. Two trains go in circles, one
57 ConcordeBoy : ...isn't in SkyTeam. IIRC, it'll be "Grand China Airlines", or airways, or something of that nature.
58 Sxf24 : No one said there were trains that are not past the security checkpoint. What has been said - and is undeniably correct - is that when FIS is open, t
59 AirframeAS : I have no idea what you are talking about, I have never seen this when I was working at SEA for AS.
60 Alexchao : I hope I can help clarify. After clearing customs in the South Satelite, passengers with boarding passes to connecting flights go through TSA securit
61 Sxf24 : Take an international flight arriving SEA and you'll understand.
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