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LH To South America Via New York...why?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

From the mid-1960s until at least 1980, Lufthansa operated several flights weekly from Germany to Bogota, Guayaquil, Lima, La Paz and Santiago that routed via JFK in both directions. As best I can tell, no other European or South American airline operated flights between their respective continents by the same routing during the same years. At the same time that some of LH's routes to South America were via JFK, their flights from Germany to Brasil, Montevideo, and Buenos Aires were via the more direct South Atlantic routing.

What was the reason behind Lufthansa's unique(?) routing to northern and western South America via New York for more than a decade?

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

They called at Kingston and Montego Bay as well. The routing made a lot of sense for LH since they had 5th freedom traffic rights from NYC and for most of the various portions of the route. That meant, they could pick up passengers and freight which made the route viable. It was flown with 707s and later DC10s. The routings changed over the years, as well as some of the intermediate points., I believe, Quito was served at a time as well. Would have to look it up.

The route was part of the German/US bi lateral which gave US carriers similar beyond roghts from Germany.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10623 times:

Thank you for the explanation. My best educated guess was that 5th Freedom rights probably had much, if not everything, to do with Lufthansa's Europe to South America via New York routing. Was the routing later discontinued (for sure by 1987) due to revocation of 5th Freedom rights, or for other reason(s)?



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
They called at Kingston and Montego Bay as well.

Indeed. In LH's Summer 1966 timetable, one weekly Europe-South America via JFK flight stopped at KIN, and another at MBJ. By Summer 1980, the first stop southbound from JFK was either BOG or LIM.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
The route was part of the German/US bi lateral which gave US carriers similar beyond roghts from Germany.

What are some examples of 5th Freedom routes US carriers operated from Germany under the same bi-lateral?


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10540 times:

If you look at this:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=f...E=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=

You can see that FRA-LIM via JFK is only about 12% longer than non stop, so the shorter range planes of the time and 5th freedom rights and it was a fairly obvious routing.

I would suggest that it was stopped for a combination of reasons including increased competation from US carriers, longer range planes and traffic growth/decline which lead to some ports becomming viable non stop and caused others to be dropped completely.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10453 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 2):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
They called at Kingston and Montego Bay as well.

Indeed. In LH's Summer 1966 timetable, one weekly Europe-South America via JFK flight stopped at KIN, and another at MBJ. By Summer 1980, the first stop southbound from JFK was either BOG or LIM.

What equipment was LH using on that route in 1980?

Those services must have started sometime after 1964. Their April 1, 1964 timetable shows their only South America service as twice-weekly via DKR using the 720B, one flight FRA-ZRH-DKR-GIG-VCP-MVD-EZE-SCL. The other flight was the same but no stop at MVD. LH had 5th freedom rights on all sectors except ZRH-DKR and of course the domestic GIG-VCP sector (VCP then the airport used by longhaul flights at Sao Paulo as GRU didn't exist).


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10295 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
What equipment was LH using on that route in 1980?

All of Lufthansa's Frankfurt-New York-South America flights in their 1 Jul -- 31 Oct 1980 timetable were operated by DC-10-30 equipment. The flight numbers and routings (each operated on a once weekly basis) were:

LH490 Frankfurt-New York-Bogota-Guayaquil-Lima (Monday)

LH492 Frankfurt-New York-Lima-La Paz-Santiago (Tuesday)

LH494 Frankfurt-New-York-Lima-La Paz-Santiago (Friday, same routing as LH492)

In the same timetable, Lufthansa also had the following once-weekly services from FRA to the same region which took the more direct route, also operated by DC-10-30 equipment:

LH516 Frankfurt-Caracas-Bogota-Lima (Wednesday)

LH518 Frankfurt-Caracas-Bogota-Guayaquil (Friday)


User currently offlineBWE320 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 9999 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 2):
What are some examples of 5th Freedom routes US carriers operated from Germany under the same bi-lateral?

Pan Am served Warsaw and Moscow from FRA. There were certainly more routes that I do not remember, but probably Vienna and Athens. Later Delta took over those flight and served Mumbai(Bombay) as well.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 9954 times:

Pan Am was a German airlines, at least the IGS services based in Berlin which provided most of the metal for the European feeder flights.

The classic 5th freedom route was Pa1/2 RTW flight.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBWE320 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

As far as I remember the planes were N registered and the pilots were Americans. Only flight attendants were based in Berlin and FRA. Other destinations from FRA were Prague, Istanbul and Belgrade. Pan Am was not a German airline because as such they would not have been able to serve Berlin (West) which was possible only for French, British and American airlines at that time . The so called IGS was later absorbed by Lufthansa while the hub operation at FRA went to Delta. Nearly the entire staff of about 700 at FRA started to work for Delta. So did Pan Am's A310 and some of its 727.

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9330 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9541 times:

There was a word missing "Basically, PanAm was a .....". Happens when one does 3 things at the same time. I know that their aircraft were N registered and that it was a US corporation and that the Allied Forces had full sovereignty over West berlin etc. I am a contemporary witness and some times I wish that the good old times come back. Especially when I accidentally come in to certain Berlin areas.,


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1137 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9216 times:

LH also flew to South America via SJU in the mid-late 80's w/747 equipment.

User currently offlineTroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8725 times:



Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 10):
LH also flew to South America via SJU in the mid-late 80's w/747 equipment.

I remember as a kid, we flew LH FRA-SJU-BOG and return LH BOG-CCS-FRA both with 747 ca. 1988

We also flew from Frankfurt to Berlin with Pan Am, but i can't remember if it was w/MD or 727...


User currently offlineTkseven From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8662 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Thread starter):

BOAC forerunner of BA operated flts ex MAN/PIK to JFK and on to carribean and i think one of the LHR/JFK flts had a similar onward routing


User currently offlineBongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1863 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8634 times:

Slightly off topic, Does anyone knows if LH has short term plans to return to BOG?


MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
User currently offlineEarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8412 times:

during the mid to late 7ties, DC-10 operated JFK-KIN-GYE-LIM-La Paz southbound, northbound UIO iso GYE. A cockpit crew was based in LIM to do the sophisticated approach to La Paz. (Under oxygen masks, due to aerodrome elevation)

User currently offlineTroest From Denmark, joined Mar 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7884 times:



Quoting Bongo (Reply 13):
Does anyone knows if LH has short term plans to return to BOG?

Read earlier that LH was interested in starting BOG again. But if AV joins Star Alliance and initiate flights to Germany, I don't see LH returning to BOG.


User currently offlineJM079 From Canada, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7544 times:



Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 14):

This is indeed interesting that LH had KIN/MBJ on there schdule as I don't know if this was due to the fact that in Jamaica there is a large community of German descedant who came here during the 1800. They left Germany as they were being persecuted and has established a very vibrant and thriving community.

Or this route by LH had to do with the fact that Jamaica was a critical destination for German tourist in the 1960s to the 70s.....

We are seeing a return of tourist from Germany and current Condor operates direct charter service to MBJ from FRA. Recently, the new minister in the tourism ministry in KIN was visiting Berlin to attend a trade show and he has advised that LH and Air Berlin were approach about providing new service to MBJ. Jamaica, he stated wants to diversify its product and want to attract new market in western and eastern europe.


User currently offlineEarlyNFF From Germany, joined Sep 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7419 times:



Quoting JM079 (Reply 16):
This is indeed interesting that LH had KIN/MBJ on there schdule as I don't know if this was due to the fact that in Jamaica there is a large community of German descedant who came here during the 1800. They left Germany as they were being persecuted and has established a very vibrant and thriving community.

interesting, didn´t know this.

However, remember having Harry Belafonte o/b JFK-KIN then. Saw him again JNB-FRA couple of years ago, on a UNICEF mission.


User currently offlineJM079 From Canada, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7272 times:



Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 17):

The Germanys are not the only group of people who came from Europe during the 1800s and settled but here is some information about the community which is called Seaford Town, Westmoreland.


http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20060502/life/life1.html

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/pages/history/story0060.htm
http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2...aford-town-germany-in-jamaica.html


User currently offlineLUFTI5525 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

The LH flight from JFK to KINGSTON were a non-rev dream.
Wish they still operated...


User currently offlineB707forever From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 459 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

This thread tempts me to remember history and why so many Germans ended up in Chile, Argentina and South America. I'm wondering if there was a change in that "need" as well.

User currently offlineF27friend From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5766 times:

Yes you are correct. I flew FRA-JFK on LH back in 1975 on a DC10. It was continuing to Lima. Also LH flew LAX-AMS-FRA with a 707 also in 1975. I remember the flights quite clearly.


F27 & F28 Fan
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

My memory is that KIN was a stop on LH routes to MEX and MTY. In the mid-1970s, LH eliminated MTY. LH discontinued flights to KIN around 1980 when DFW replaced it as the stop on flights to MEX. Does anyone know when LH started flying to MEX? According to the April 1, 1964 timetable that Viscount 724 mentioned, LH did not fly to MEX, CCS, BOG, GYE, or LIM.

Around 1980, SJU replaced JFK as the stop on LH flights to the west coast of South America. As I recall, LH flights to CCS originally stopped in CMN. In 1980, the 747 replaced the DC-10 on LH flights to GIG, VCP, EZE, and SCL. At that time, LH eliminated the stopover in DKR and discontinued service to MVD and ASU.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5538 times:



Quoting F27friend (Reply 21):
Also LH flew LAX-AMS-FRA with a 707 also in 1975. I remember the flights quite clearly.

Fifth Freedom traffic rights of the various European airlines from the 1950s through the (early-mid) 1970s to carry pax between the U.S. and cities in European nations other than the one in which they were based would make an extensive and interesting (to me at least Smile) topic in itself! There were numerous examples that could be cited, one of which immediately comes to mind being LHR-JFK 3x weekly on Alitalia in 1966 on flights routed MXP-LHR-JFK and reverse, with DC-8-40 equipment.

...and, if anything, the Fifth Freedom possibilities on Europe to the Far East flights via the southern route during the same years would make an even more extensive topic!

Quoting B707forever (Reply 20):
This thread tempts me to remember history and why so many Germans ended up in Chile, Argentina and South America.

An interesting historical fact to a.netters concerning German immigrants in South America is that both Avianca and VARIG were founded by Germans who had settled in Colombia and Brasil, respectively. If I recall correctly, German immigrants also founded LAB/Lloyd Aereo Boliviano.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 22):
Does anyone know when LH started flying to MEX?

In the Lufthansa timetable dated April 24, 1966, there is a twice-weekly service (Mo Th) operating FRA-CGN-YUL-MEX, along with a notation "Eff. May 5" which leads me to think this may have been the very first date of LH service to MEX. In the footnotes of this timetable it is noted that Lufthansa did not have traffic rights on the YUL-MEX sector of the flight, nor were stopovers even allowed at YUL.


User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5516 times:



Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 23):
In the Lufthansa timetable dated April 24, 1966, there is a twice-weekly service (Mo Th) operating FRA-CGN-YUL-MEX, along with a notation

Thank you!

In May 1966, was LH still flying to SFO via YUL and ORY? Also, had LH launched flights to Latin American cities such as CCS, BOG, or LIM by 1966?


25 Viscount724 : BOAC had extensive service from JFK to Bermuda and the Caribbean in the 1950s and 1960s. Not sure when those services ended. In their December 1962 t
26 Tango-Bravo : In their April 24, 1966 timetable, all of Lufthansa's 5 weekly flights from FRA to SFO were routed via YUL plus one of three different cities in Euro
27 WA707atMSP : Not many people know that Lufthansa was the first airline to fly wide bodies from New York City to the west coast of South America (Colombia, Ecuador,
28 JM079 : What was the reason behind Lufthansa's unique(?) routing to northern and western South America via New York for more than a decade Well, so far there
29 Post contains images Coronado990 : I was very lucky to fly these routes in 1962 and 1964. Thanks for the memories on that one!
30 Tango-Bravo : Can you recall, and perhaps share, what it was like to be a pax on a Lufthansa longhaul flight in those days in terms of service inflight and at the
31 Post contains links and images Coronado990 : You know Tango-Bravo, I was only 5 and 7 at the time and more interested in machine then man. The flight on the 707 itself had me mesmerized. But I c
32 PanHAM : The reason is simple, the bi-lateral gave LH beyond traffic rights from a point in the US to points in Central and South America. This enabled the co
33 Chgoflyer : Didnt AF and IB operate out of Miami to points south under the same agreement? Id be curious to learn more about Pan Am's Frankfurt routes when they w
34 Post contains links 777jaah : In fact AV first name was SCADTA (Sociedad Colombo Alemana de Transportes Aereos), which translates something like Colombian-German Society of Air Tr
35 Post contains images EarlyNFF : Wrong on two: NAS instead of KIN on MEX flights (DC-10). Very much liked by the crews (me included!) The other stop was Merida, not MTY. MTY was serv
36 IAD380 : Old LH timetables from the 1950s and 1960s indicate that DKR was always a stop on LH flights to GIG. The stopover in DKR was eliminated in 1980 when
37 Post contains images LO231 : When Delta took over, sometimes they had 3 flights a day to FRA from WAW, one being FRA-WAW, one FRA-PRG-WAW, on eFRA-WAW-LED, I flew WAW-PRG-FRA in
38 Viscount724 : If you go all the way back to August 1963, Pan Am had direct flights (nonstop or same-plane with one or more stops) from FRA to the following destina
39 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : Around 45 years backward, Aerolineas Argentinas also served Europe including a layover in Dakar, Senegal. Related link in Spanish: http://www.avmag.c
40 WA707atMSP : If you want to see what LH 707s looked like, rent the James Bond movie "Diamonds are Forever", which came out in 1971. James Bond and Tiffany Case (pl
41 Viscount724 : However movies with scenes on aircraft are almost always filmed on mock-up sets, not on an aircraft. So it depends how accurate the producers of the
42 Lufthansa : This flight was used in one of the early James Bond movies...I think it was goldfinger. They're in AMS and they need to go to LAX, and they turn up o
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