Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Future Of KLM/NWA  
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

I'm sure this has been discussed before but with the new Alitalia/KLM idea (which I think may be closer to a reality then an idea) what will be the future of the alliance? Will they take in new members and try to compete with one world and Star or will they just join a current alliance? It Delta and NWA hammer out a deal with Continental what will that mean to thier partners in Europe (KLM, AF).

I think this is a very exciting time regarding the future of these "mega" alliances and could result in some major consolidations on the North atlantic market. Which brings up another question about where the main hubs will be as opposed to the secondary hubs (ex. Amsterdam vs Milan/Rome).

Any thoughts or comments?
NUair


"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNwa747-400 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1337 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

NW/KLMwill be together until the end of airline travel.

NW/KL/AZ/CO sounds like the start of a beautiful alliance that will eventually include:

Jet Airways
Brathens
Kenya Airways
Malaysian
Air China
Alaska Air
Hawaiin Air
Japan Air System

Now if that doesn't compete with Star and Oneworld I don't know what can!


User currently offlineWatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

NWA747-400,

Your prediction of future members still lack the profile and name recognition of Star, Oneworld or even SkyTeam members. Who thinks of JAS when planning to fly to Japan?


User currently offlineJiml1126 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Hmmm... When you think of JAS, that will be the time when you're travelling in Japan.

I'm not sure if Air China will stay with KLM/NWA alliance. They code-share with Star members (Lufthansa, Austrian Airlines), Qualiflyer (Swissair), One World (Finnair)


User currently offlineBunga777 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Why have KLM and NW been taking off their NW/KLM alliance decals from their aircraft?

User currently offlineA32 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 163 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

The stickers have been flying away mostly because of the deicing fluids being used in such abundance this winter.

The one camment I must make about the NWA/KLM alliance is simply the fact that it is the most integrated and profitable thus far. They are definitely not the largest in size or scope but they have survived many major hurdles and learnt from their experiences. There is negligible amount of route duplicity and most of all there is a business trust between the two. For those who do not know.. KLM and NWA operate as a single airline over the Atlantic i.e. regardlesss of the aircraft or airline flying the route all revenue is shared equally. They share a marketing budget and develop and utilize similar products.

While other airlines do have the name recognition I will daresay that LH and UAL share revenue or even a CRS.

regrds


User currently offlineWatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Just one thing about NW and KL that baffles me. If they are so keen on sharing everything, why are they going in opposite direction when it comes to their fleet decision? I'm sure NW and KL could have settle on either 777 or 330/340 together to satisfy their needs. Combined order could have been beneficial to both airlines, giving each other better discounts due to the sheer volume of the order as well as the flexibility to swap delivery dates amongst themselves.
Anyone know why they are going in different direction?


User currently offlineBibeb From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

KL is checking its options when it comes to fleet renewal. These options are 777, 330/340 or 747X. When they were negotiating the merger with AZ, they were discussing standardized fleet issues, especially long range. Although KL is likely to stay at Boeing (they even share an engineering facility at Schiphol), they could still choose 330/340 and thus reach more fleet communuality with NW. Combined orders are propably not possible now, since KL doesn't want to spend money on fleet renewal now.

On the other hand, with all the possible new Wings partners (Malaysian, Continental, Alitalia, Air China, Thai Airways, Kenya Airways??), you can divide the alliance in a Airbus and Boeing camp and offer facilities for both. Commercially also interesting since this is a possibiltiy to offer your engineering skills to any airline in the world, like Lufthansa is doing very profitably.


User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Hey,
I just read in the news that KLM has refused the offer from the Italian Gov. to make a new alliance with Alitalia. They said that options are still open but in the current situation (AZ still State owned) they cannot afford to join an alliance with the Italian flag carrier.
This leaves many other open options: Alitalia may join SkyTeam with Air France, leaving KLM in the need of seeking a major European partner to face the LH/SK, BA/IB and AF/AZ alliances; could it be Swissair and its Qualiflyier Group?
On the US side, the situation is still too fluid to have a clear idea. We still don't know if the AA/TWA merge will go through and if this will affect Delta and Northwest/Continental. Not to talk of the recent Delta's attempts (at least on this forum) to take over Continental and vice versa.
After all, the only stand point seems to be the NW/KL alliance.

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1804 times:

Steman,

What is your source on that information and when was it posted?

I know a lot of things are going on not only between KLM/AZ but also Schiphol and the Rome airports. As for privatization I thought that was comming very soon for AZ. Last I heard (yesterday in the Dutch papers) was that an alliance between KL/AZ was almost guarunteed, after AZ got rid of their former CEO who helped bring down the last try at an alliance.

Well anyway let me know your sources.

Thanks,
NUair



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1795 times:

Hello NUair,
I have read that in the news section of airliners.net.
I know that the CEO has been changed in order to have one not involved in the previous affair but this may also mean that Alitalia is going to have more strict talks with Air France.
Before this new round of talks between AZ and KLM, Alitalia released a press document in which they explained the "Stand Alone" Porogramme: Alitalia would remain alone (that's to say out of any major alliance) untill 2004, at the same time developing and reorganizing both fleet and structure and building a network of code sharing agreements to fill the gaps in the current long haul network.
Anyway, this was released before the CEO changment and the renewed talks with KLM.
In my opinion the best partner for AZ is AF. They are more similar than KL/AZ and, on a selfish point of view, I could merge my two FF programmes

Ciao

Stefano

P.S.
Before you ask me, the AZ press release I wrote about has been published on an Italian aviation magazine: JP4, February issue. Some extracts are available at Alitalia website www.Alitalia.it; click on Financial news.


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1790 times:

Steman,

I agree with what your saying but do you really want Alitalia to become a seconday partner? KLM is dealing with the same issue (BA or AF). But with any alliance with a major carrier it could and probably would result in more international flights being diverted through the stronger partners hub (London, PAris, Frankfurt). If KLM or AZ were to merge with AF it is almost guarunteed that they would lose or consolidate more international flights through Paris. I think for this reason a partnership between two smaller more equal partners KLM/AZ would make more sense. This alliance could challenge BA, AF and Luthansa instead of being forced to join with them as a secondary airline.

Just my thoughts,
NUair



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Well Nuair,
I know that Alitalia would be just a secondary partner in an alliance with Air France, and I hope they would reactivate more long haul flights from Rome in order to not loose them in Milan because of Paris.
The fact is that I prefer Alitalia to be a secondary partner of a true bigger airline than the secondary partner of a same size airline as KLM. I am saying this because in many of the articles about the new AZ/KL alliance it was reported that KLM wants the leading position in the alliance, relegating AZ to a subdued position. KLM wants to decide on strategy, fleets, networks and other partners.
And this was in my opionion the true reason KL and AZ broke their partnership last year: KLM wanted to be dominant in the alliance while Alitalia management didn't want to allow this so KLM found the easy (and in some extents motivated) keys of the privatization and Malpensa to break the alliance.

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1760 times:

"I am saying this because in many of the articles about the new AZ/KL alliance it was reported that KLM wants the leading position in the alliance, relegating AZ to a subdued position"

You think AZ would have more leverage in an alliance with AF then KL? I don't understand this one. Looking at Air France's current partnerships I don't think AF gives too much flexibility. With KL AZ will have a lot better chance of voicing any opinions. Plus it is in KL's best interest to help AZ develope as a partner to compete with the big guys. I doubt KL will force AZ to do anything that AF would't make them do. Looking at the current KL/NWA alliance I see very little pushing on either side. They both maintain there own aircraft purchases (NWA-Airbus, KL-Boeing) they also expand at there own pace in their respective markets. I feel that AZ will stand to benefit much more from a merger with KL/NWA then AF.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Forget the frequent flier miles.

Groet,
NUair



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

hey NUair,
we are monopolizing this thread, I hope the other users won't mind it, hehe.

Anyway, I know that AZ wouldn't have more leverage in an alliance with AF but I still think it would be better. Air France is a very big and rapidly expanding carrier and it can help Alitalia in expanding the long haul network. What I meant is that I am sure that KLM would try to have the leadership of the alliance in Europe. They cannot do it with NW because they have different areas of influence and NW is bigger than KLM but in Europe they would probably build a dominance over any other possible partner, partly like Swissair is doing. Don't you think that KLM will push Schiphol as main hub leaving Milan as second rank and letting Rome disappear from their long haul network? Don't you think that KLM would influence any of Alitalia's decisions regarding fleet and network? Remember that Alitalia originally ordered 5 B747-400 because KLM already had a huge fleet of them, then, when the alliance broke out, they switched the order for the 777 more suited for AZ needs. Recently, Airliners World reported that Alitalia could place a mixed order of A32x and B737NG to replace the medium haul fleet if the agreement with KLM goes through. Alitalia has never had 737s in fleet while they already have more than 40 A320 family aircraft: isn't this pushing? My fear is that KLM is interested in AZ only for its huge domestic and European network and they wouldn't care much of the needings of their Italian partner.
Moreover, but this is just my opinion, a Dutch and an Italian Company cannot work together as good as a French and an Italian one, it's just a matter of mentality.

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

I would agree with the mentality part I think a Dutch-Italian network could be very much like a Swiss-Belgian connection. however I think a lot of factors made Swissair-Sabena more of an oddity then an example (mostly having to do with SA groups nutty expansion through takeover plans). And I also think that KL does look to more integrated systems as opposed to AF, but I still don't follow you on the aircraft orders. I think that would be very dependent on how much of it would be an alliance between the two as opposed to "ownership". I have a feeling that KL will not invest in AZ but will look more for a partnership to be more competitive with the other 3 big alliances.

Another major factor in this whole negotiation is the connection between the Rome airport authority and Schiphol Group in Amsterdam. If these two airports make some kind of deal like Schiphol has with Frankfurt then I think that growth would be encouraged out of both airports not just Schiphol or Rome. I don't think Milan will suffer either becuase of the large business market that uses Milan, AZ could not afford to cut back on operations.

Both KL and AZ are in a very tricky position on one hand if they stay independent of the major alliances then they are asking for trouble. If KL/NWA expand their current alliance then they will be hard pressed to find some more partners. quick. On the other hand if they join any existing allinaces they will sacrifice the independence they have now and the current operations out of their hubs.

I know you disagree and I love AF as well but I really think that NWA/CO/KL/AZ would be a hell of a contender on the north atlantic.

Groet,
NUair



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Who thinks of AA when planning travel to Japan? Who thinks of DL?

Not too many people, I can assure you. Most people think of NW, UA and JL, NH.


User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

I think Air China will remain with Northwest for quite a while. LH/CA codeshare on only one route. NW/CA codeshare on all Transpac US/China routes. AND Northwest is the ONLY carrier to codeshare on domestic Chinese routes!

User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

The "Seal of Partnership" decals were removed because the "Wings" seal was going to be introduced and replace the NW/KL seal.

Since KL broke off the merger with AZ due to the Italian government's procrastination about turning Malpensa into a hub, the Wings seal is temporarily on hold.

KL has approached NW about putting the NW/KL seal back on NW aircraft, but NW is hesitating, thinking that a deal can be struck soon between KL and AZ.


User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

You think AZ/AF is a GOOD thing? The French are almost as lazy as the Italians when it comes to work issues.

On another note, however, the French are very punctual while the Italians are simply lazy and NEVER on time.

Both companies, however, strike at the drop of a hat so if you have a combination of the two, one counterpart would almost always be striking against something.

If AZ joins KL (the Dutch have a very strong work ethic like the Germans at LH do) then I think their work ethic will vastly improve and you'll see a lot fewer wildcat strikes.


User currently offlineA330_DTW From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

The KL/AZ alliance was quite integrated by the time it was called off.

Because of noise contraints at Schiphol, much of the long-haul flying was shifter to Malpensa. KL operated flights from FCO and MXP to SYD under AZ flight numbers as part of the alliance. AZ also flew these routes with KL certain days of the week and AZ the other days. KL was banking on AZ taking over some long-haul flying as well, to free up KL aircraft for North/South America flights.

There was even talk of joint crews working these codeshare flights (there were really more like wet-lease arrangements).

Now that AZ and NW have renewed and expanded their alliance, and seeing as CO has some AZ affiliation (and NW/CO are in an alliance) I hope to see NW put some pressure on KL to restart talks with AZ and get the Wings Alliance back on track.



User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

A330_DTW,
pay attention when you say that Italians and French are lazy and never on time. You might be offensive towards an entire Nations. Maybe I shouldn't take it as personal but I felt like you were telling ME that I am lazy, never on time and a bad worker. My experiences abroad have tought me that everyone is equal and there are not lazy Nations or ethic Nations but just single persons each different. Maybe you should move yourself more from the Suburb of Detroit.
If you really think that a partnership between AZ and AF couldn't work because French are lazy and Italians are even worst well, you are just telling us that you are a very norrowminded person with stupid prejudices.
Please, keep such opinions for you rather than post them here.
If you don't have any intelligent thing to say, well, just don't post anything.
I agree with NUair in many respects about the AZ/KL/NW alliance; he has many good points to validate his statements and, despite he comes from the higly superior Dutch race, he has not been offensive.

Ciao

Stefano



User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

I have to agree with Steman (not about the alliance but about A330_DTW's remarks). I could tell you about a million ways that the Dutch behave differently then the Germans but since this is an aviation forum I don't think it's appropriate to waste time on prejudices. That can be saved for another time. I do think its strange that anyone would base opinions on alliances based on these prejudices (more so a 36-45 year old from Detroit). With the EU and significant pressure being put on European airlines to consolidate I doubt very highly that culture is going to play a part.

Now as for the alliance. Noise issues will not even be a problem after at Schiphol after the 5th runway is operating in a few years so I don't see any problems with that but gate restrictions are the more likely case. I have not heard anything about NW putting pressure on KL before putting the alliance emblem on the aircraft. So let me know your source on that one. And as Steman points out AZ is currently spreading its partnerships to include airlines from all different alliances, something that I doubt KL/NW will think of very highly. I think we will have to wait for privatization before we find anything more out.

Steman, where do you go for financial info on AZ? I have been looking but have been unable to find any accurate sources. As for the 777-300 order I did find more info on that and you are right. Do you have any ideas where they will be used?

Groet,
NUair



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineMSPman From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

There is one partner that this future wings allance could have Virgin Atlantic which currently codeshares with Continental.

User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1403 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Hi NUair,
as I already told you I had those information about Alitalia plan of expansion on an article in an Italian Aviation Magazine, JP4 February Issue.
If you have Acrobat Reader you can take a look at an Alitalia official document in http://www.alitalia.it/ita/mondo/conoscere/news/index2.html
select the third document (Alitalia new business plan 2000-2004).
Anyway, you can see that it is dated Dec 18th and so it has been released before the CEO Cempella resigned and the renewed talks with KLM.
As for the 777-300, they will be used to replace the B747-200Bs and so they will be probably used on flights between Rome and Milan towards New York, Miami, Rio de Janeiro, Tokyo and possibly Australia.

Ciao

Stefano


25 Republic : Your comments prove on thing: your lack of education. What an ass you made of yourself. Rgds, Joe
26 Ladevale : My question is, What is "route duplicity"? Is that when one route lies to another? [See previous post for an answer.]
27 A330_dtw : I guess I was unfair in making such a sweeping generalization about the Italians and the French. My remarks do not prove my lack of education, Republi
28 Go air canada : i agree with A330-dtw. i have experiecened wildcat strkes by scabitalia and by scare-france! this isnt meant as an insult but how can those two airlin
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Future Of YMX. posted Mon Jan 22 2007 18:11:12 by Bmacleod
Is The Future Of Bmi In Manchester? posted Sun Jan 21 2007 12:46:03 by BestWestern
The Future Of Sun Country Airlines posted Fri Jan 19 2007 17:33:22 by Saab2000
The Future Of Air Wisconsin? posted Wed Jan 3 2007 19:28:55 by Saab2000
Sugestions About The Future Of OA posted Tue Dec 26 2006 21:16:39 by 1981
Future Of The 747-8 And 747-7? posted Thu Nov 23 2006 18:53:58 by CX747
ADS-B The Future Of Radar? posted Mon Nov 20 2006 19:58:42 by Mpdpilot
The Future Of Alliances (post Merger Frenzy) posted Fri Nov 17 2006 12:09:40 by B777A340Fan
Regional Airlines RFPs And The Future Of Them posted Wed Nov 15 2006 07:39:34 by Apodino
Future Of Air Madrid posted Tue Oct 31 2006 03:19:49 by TACAA320