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Can Canada Support So Many Airlines?  
User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1213 times:

Given that AC and CP are merged, do you think Canada can really support many diff. airlines as it is now? Or there will be more mergers coming up?

share your view
R Panda

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1124 times:

Look for Canjet to be next on the merger list...I have it on good authority that CJ is in talks with AC to become their new low cost airline....they have also approached Westjet a few times to talk merger, but each time WJ has told them to get lost......even with loads increasing apperantly CJA is loosing money and may not last for the rest of this year.


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineAirCanadaMan From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

Although I dont know all that much about CJ I believe also they face extinction fairly soon. WJ however continues to boom and grows constantly, thier business plan is very smart and well thought out.

C3 and Royal are merging, that will leave 2 major charter airlines, Air Transat and the new C3. Skyervice is off to the side.

So who does that leave? (Major Carriers)

AC, Westjet, the new Canada 3000 and Air Transat.

The four of them will do well, particularaly the first 3 dometstically.

I still cant believe the sucess of Westjet.


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

Skyservice may end up amazing all of us with sucess...Although it will be tough, if Rootsair can provide the service that it claims it will, you can expect to see a virgin like product in Canada, and it will go over well with the travelling public, especially if their fares can beet Mapleflot's. I will try them out when they start up, just to see what they are all about, it should be interesting flight.....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineAirman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 975 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1104 times:

Actually Canjet is doing much better than once thought. They are planning on adding a couple of more routes in the east. Which ones it is not yet disclosed.
Skyservice/RootsAir I think will give AC and TheNew C3 a good run for their money,WestJet Again I have to agree with the others on that, Why so successful? What are they doing Right?

Airman99o



Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
User currently offlineWatewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

We never really had a discount airline with extensive route structure in Canada before WestJet. Now that we have that, I'm looking forward to seeing an alternative second scheduled airline. Will it be RootsAir or Canada3000? Only time will tell. And we have a charter airline in Air Transat. I don't think it's crowded at all.
The only reason CP failed was its bad management (overpaying, too much debt, etc...) and bad timing in early '90s just after their acquisitions. With fiscally respnsible managements, Canada will have a alternative to AC- albeit not as big as CP.


User currently offlineRed Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1099 times:

I know that Westjet has a really good management. The CEO of Westjet even dance w/ the frontline employees (a video shown). Their employees actually enjoy working there. There is a saying within Westjet, "If you are not happy with your job, you are fired." So basically every employees enjoy their jobs, and this is how Westjet makes its pax. enjoy their flights by friendly stewards' smile.

my two cents
r panda


User currently offlineRunway From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1097 times:

Roots won't last. If they do they will be the first of their type to do so. If you offer business class service only, you have to remember the most important issue to this type of travler is the frequency of flights. You can't offer this with one or two aircraft. Good idea, but it won't fly. Canada 3000 is going to run into tough times now that they have aquired an airline that other-wise would have gone tits up in another month. Westjet will do fine I think, I wouldn't say they will expand too much in the near future, but will play it safe for the coming down turn in the economy.

Too many airlines running into a weak economy, someone will have to fold

Regards
Runway


User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

RUNWAY: Are you smoking some bad weed??? First of all Roots is not ALL BUSINESS CLASS they are full service like Air Canada, with a two class (maybe three not 100% sure) They will have a hard time, but they could survive...and C3 buying is company that is going TU in a month>????? Man that was about the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life....ROYAL was doing just fine This situation is not like Canadian which really was going to die in a month or so....But ROYAL was doing very well, and was even planning to add two more planes at least by the end of the year...(A310/A300) You are sadly mistaken if you think ROY was doing poorly...Man get your facts straight before you go bashing companies...


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineAirCanadaMan From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1067 times:

To add to Slawkos post about Runway:
Westjet not expanding?!?!
Hello, they have a huge order of NG's yet to be delivered not to mention several new routes and more frequencies opening in the first half of 2001.

Judging from this I think thier major expansion is just begining.


User currently offlineFlyboy767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1065 times:

I think Air Canada's biggest compitition is going to be Westjet, the already have an extensive network, capital to work with, and they are expanding fairly rapidly. C3 might also eventually be a worthy competitor, but they still have aways to catch up in terms of aircraft and routes.

That being said, I think the more airlines we have around the better, it just means better service for the consumer, however, I hardly think a country like ours, (huge area, small population) can handle anymore than 4 scheduled carriers if that, we could hardly support two majors when it was just AC and CP around!


User currently offlineAirman99o From Canada, joined Aug 1999, 975 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1042 times:

hey There,
Just got back from an interview on Friday with Roots air and they are going to have a three class service. The 727's are going to be coming from one of Sky services subsidaries. But will be phased out of Roots air service with A-320's, but still used on the sport hawk charters. Skyservice is in the middle of ordering another A-330 for The Roots division. so hopefully it will be able to compete well with Air Canada, Plus now that C3 is larger I think that there is going to be one hell of a war on the go between these Three. Who will surivie out of C3/RA? who knows. only time will tell. With the Low cost? I think it will end up being an all out war in the next year or two between WJ/CJ. Sure canjet is small now, doing quite well, and adding more planes and hiring more people, I highly doubt it is going anywhere anytime soon. Plus has a fairly large reserve, mind you not near as large as WJ. CJ is in the talks of going trans border in the coming months and adding a couple more Atlantic cities. So things must be going well for them somehow. Most flights are fairly full during peak times, And Chirstmas season was Insane, Full flights for the entire holiday season, I know this as to the reason I know three people that work there, My cousin is a F/A and I know two Ramp agents.
Well that is my two cents worth.

airman99o



Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1042 times:

What does anyone think about the possibility of WestJet swallowing Canjet up soon to strengthen their position in the East?

Aaron G.


User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1142 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1041 times:

Based on Canadian population figures, Canadian travel patterns - Canadians being big travellers, foreign travel patterns to Canada - Canada being a top tourist destination, Canada can support three well-managed, scheduled carriers.

1 - a carrier that serves Canada, geographical North America, global centres;

2 - a carrier that serves Canada, geographical North America, global centres where multiple-carrier designation exists;

3 - a carrier that serves Canada, geographical North America.

All three carriers would be part of different global alliances. In addition, you would continue to have the leisure/charter carriers and the major niche regionals (Cdn North, First Air, Air Creebec, etc).

Canadian Airlines (an "amalgamation" of Transair, Pacific Western, Wardair, Nordair, Quebecair, Eastern Provincial, CP Air) would have been a worthy #2 had there been less politics and better management. As it stands now, Canada 3000/Royal appears to be taking that #2 position with a Westjet-type taking the #3.


User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1035 times:

First I think Slawko has only good things to say. Royal is doing really good, so its more or less two good airlines combining into one to make one strong one, simple, Air Canada needs competition!

I think that all Canadian Airlines are fighting for domestic route traffic. There are really three classes with all of our airlies, WJ and CJ, low service. The New C3, TS, Skyservice, medium service, and I guess Roots and Air Canada, as High service.

What it comes down too, is who can attract all of the business, are people looking for a cheap flight.....then CJ or WJ, these guys just get you there. If people want a bit better they go up to the next class, and it will depend on previous service who they pick......and so on.....

One won't suffer they all will with tough times, the ones that has liquid assets, such as cash, to support throught the tough times will survive. Or sharholders who believe in the airline will help a lot......

Those are my two pennies






Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineCanada Mike From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 149 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1034 times:

In my opinion, no. The Cdn air transport industry can not support six major carriers. Especially with woefully managed CanJet going up against Royal, WestJet, Can 3000, and AC in the east. Roots may or may not make it, but if they can get through the first two years or so, chances are probably pretty good that they will be around for the long haul. I'll cross my fingers, but I won't hold my breath.

I doubt CanJet will ally with AC, just because of the outcry that would raise among the Cdn travelling public. They'd see it, no matter the circumstances, as big bully AC imposing itself on poor wee CanJet. Plus, the two airlines have a bit of a history. Remember when CanJet wanted AC to change all it's fares (upwards) *before it got started* so CJ could 'have a fair go'?? (What ever happened to AC's right to compete?) As well, didn't they lobby the federal government to force AC to virtually cease all it's ops in the maritimes, and raised such hell over it that they delayed their startup, thereby missing the summer season of 2000? (Great management, IMHO  Big grin )

I'm not 100% positive about some of the last paragraph, specifically why CJ was lobbying the gov't and missed Summer 2000, but I think that what I said was the case. Please do correct me if I'm wrong; I'd love to know the actual cause of the startup delay if that isn't it.  Smile

Cheers
Canada Mike
ICQ 108008798


User currently offlineRunway From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1008 times:

Slawko,

Roots air is two thirds buisness class, thus they cater to the business class pax first. The most important thing to this type of travler is the frequency of flights, not the cost. You are right they could survive, however they would be the first in history. It has been done before in Canada, the US and in Europe and has not been sucessful, that is my point.

Royal may have posted some good earnings in the past few months, but I think if they had not joined with Canada 3000 they would have been severly injured in the coming economic down turn. I never once said that the company was doing poorly, just that they would have run into trouble in the near future if they didn't do something.

Keep your eye on Westjet, I'm sure you'll see them slow down.

By the way, I smoke BC Hydro, when I can get it.

Regards
Runway


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