Nycfly75 From Italy, joined Aug 2005, 748 posts, RR: 10 Posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7347 times:
Alitalia today began its Summer 2008 schedule. MXP has been de-hubbed (going to a daily average of only 50 flights) and FCO is now, with a couple exceptions the longhaul and main hub for AZ. Some have speculated this would be bad for AZ's LF on longhaul, but here are some of today's results:
AZ 610 New York (777) : full
AZ 614 Boston (767) : 1 business seat left
AZ 650 Toronto (767) : 7 biz seat left and 11 in eco
AZ 686 Caracas (767) : full
AZ 630 Miami (767) : 7 biz seats left and 6 in Y
AZ 628 Chicago (767) : 1 biz seat left in and 14 in Y
AZ 675 GRU-FCO (777) landed this morning with 270 pax on board.
AZ 746 Dubai (767) : 4 seat left in biz and 107 left in Y
Most flights seem to be heavily booked in the coming weeks.
797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1821 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7252 times:
Fingers crossed on these new operations.
I really hope everything goes well to AZ and that Berlusconi stays away from it. Hopefully AF/KL will takeover succesfully and AZ will be back in the skies as it did before.
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7233 times:
Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter): AZ 610 New York (777) : full
AZ 614 Boston (767) : 1 business seat left
AZ 650 Toronto (767) : 7 biz seat left and 11 in eco
AZ 686 Caracas (767) : full
AZ 630 Miami (767) : 7 biz seats left and 6 in Y
AZ 628 Chicago (767) : 1 biz seat left in and 14 in Y
AZ 675 GRU-FCO (777) landed this morning with 270 pax on board.
AZ 746 Dubai (767) : 4 seat left in biz and 107 left in Y
In these days you have to be brave to book AZ. You never know when they will be grounded.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11135 posts, RR: 61 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7209 times:
What was the reason behind AZ's move from MXP to FCO?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7165 times:
Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 1):
AZ 631 MIA FCO 25/25 biz 189/189 eco
Alitalia has the single highest load factors of any airline at MIA lately, and in December averaged a perfect 100% loadfactor with every seat sold out on every flight in and out. I expect the same results with Rome, but it will be interesting to see how yield suffers given the strong business traffic between Miami and northern Italy, which I think is likely going to be making a switch to Swiss and their superior service (including lie-flat C and F service, which resumes to MIA in July).
Misbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7139 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): it will be interesting to see how yield suffers given the strong business traffic between Miami and northern Italy
Yea. I'm surprised no one's announced a launch of MIA-MXP yet (hint: AA)!
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7130 times:
Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 7):
Yea. I'm surprised no one's announced a launch of MIA-MXP yet (hint: AA)!
AA has been looking at it closely, a final decision will not happen until at least early May. However, given the turmoil in the industry, and little signs of things getting better, combined with AA's conservative nature, I'm not optimistic. I think AirOne is more likely to fill the void.
Misbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7077 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8): combined with AA's conservative nature
True. AA's pretty risk averse it seems. However, they did start JFK-BCN, which really doesn't add all that much to whatever going through MAD already provided. Don't you think MXP-MIA would have been a better bet overall?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7035 times:
Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 9): True. AA's pretty risk averse it seems. However, they did start JFK-BCN, which really doesn't add all that much to whatever going through MAD already provided. Don't you think MXP-MIA would have been a better bet overall?
JFK-BCN was announced well before Alitalia's announcement of moving the Malpensa hub. It is in part to better exploit their trans-Atlantic alliance with Iberia, which will undoubtedly become an 50/50 joint venture in the next 18-24 months.
TrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2098 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6810 times:
Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter): Alitalia today began its Summer 2008 schedule. MXP has been de-hubbed (going to a daily average of only 50 flights) and FCO is now, with a couple exceptions the longhaul and main hub for AZ.
Wow, only 50 daily flights out of MXP now? Talk about a de-hubbing. What are the few longhaul exceptions that remain out of MXP?
Misbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6725 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10): JFK-BCN was announced well before Alitalia's announcement of moving the Malpensa hub. It is in part to better exploit their trans-Atlantic alliance with Iberia, which will undoubtedly become an 50/50 joint venture in the next 18-24 months.
True, as was MXP, which could have been moved to Miami!
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 11): What are the few longhaul exceptions that remain out of MXP?
JFK, GRU and NRT continue to be served from MXP (in addition to FCO).
EZE, CCS, MIA, EWR, ORD, YYZ, BOS, LOS, ACC, KIX, DXB all moved to FCO.
Beagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6483 times:
They closed from Mxp also some high revenue flights like the ones to china... It's not a great thing for AZ because now all the pax from north italy without direct longh haul flight from MXP will use other company to reach oversea dest. Example: If i have to go from MXP to MIA in june according to Expedia i can chose betwen: US Airways 531€ (trough Philadelphia), Delta 561€ (trough ATL), KLM/Martinair Holland 637€ (Trough AMS), Continental 653€ (EWR) and finally Alitalia trough CDG with 712€ (and is only half an AZ flight).
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3591 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6440 times:
I just had a look at the timetable - amazing.
Are they storing aircraft? They are withdrawing tons of domestic and European flights served with a mixture of ER4, E70, AT7, M80, A32X. They obviously cannot shift all this capacity to FCO. The only easy disposal are the Air alprs Dorniers, but the rest is Alitalia Express or Alitalia mainline.
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5540 posts, RR: 40 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6355 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): which I think is likely going to be making a switch to Swiss
This could very well be. It is much easier and more convenient to fly to MIA, DEL, BOM, PVG, ORD, BOS, DXB etc. from MXP via ZRH than via FCO. I heard from SWISS that at the moment they won't increase the number of their six daily flights between ZRH and MXP but probably the seat capacity as they could change some flights from AVRO RJ 100 to Airbus planes (A 321?).
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5953 times:
Fact is that in today's increasingly competitive environment, either you're a big, centrally located, player (LH, AF-KL, BA), or you're rather a regional and/or focused player (for instance IB only has very few routes to the US but is a leader for Lat. Am. and is doing good these years, in the same way FI is focused on (almost) monopoly to Iceland as well as selected US destinations that are of interest for Scandinavians -eg MSP- and it is also successful)
Fact is MXP is where every intl carrier wants to fly to when one thinks Italy, and AZ currently cannot afford to compete with them, so they re-focused on the Italian Peninsula which is a lot less covered by the big players, although it is very populated, very touristy and has a decent economy in general.
To me, ie makes sense that AZ wants to focus on FCO. A good move for the long-term development of the Roman area and the rest of peninsular Italy, of which MXP is rather far...
Geographically speaking, FCO could grow as a significant hub for E Africa, SE Asia, Arabia or the Indian Ocean from NW/W Europe (AF-KL territory) as it shortens connection distances significantly, while the distance saved by using MXP would be less attractive. I'd love to see FCO/AZ evolve this way, like MAD is a big hub in One World for S Am.
Quoting 797 (Reply 3): I really hope everything goes well to AZ and that Berlusconi stays away from it.
N770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 123 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5828 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): Alitalia has the single highest load factors of any airline at MIA lately, and in December averaged a perfect 100% loadfactor with every seat sold out on every flight in and out.
Wow, that's either terrible revenue management or fleet planning, but an operational nightmare either way. Think about the number of denied boardings and frustrated standby passengers, given that every international flight has no-shows, late-shows, etc. Beyond a low 90s load factor on int'l routes these issues get ugly (and the airline is leaving money on the table by not raising fares or upgauging).
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6): I expect the same results with Rome, but it will be interesting to see how yield suffers given the strong business traffic between Miami and northern Italy, which I think is likely going to be making a switch to Swiss and their superior service (including lie-flat C and F service, which resumes to MIA in July).
Very true. Given the passenger demand you noted the vast majority of MIA-MXP passengers must have been connecting on trash yields - else they've left a strong market to someone else.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5438 times:
One of the trade unions has slammed the door during a last chance meeting between Cyril Spinetta and the pilots unions in Rome.SO there is again an increasing chance that the deal will not get the blessing of the unions and will fall through...
Beagleboys From Italy, joined Jun 2006, 230 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4746 times:
tomorrow is the last day. or the union get it of AF go home without AZ...
News here in italy said that in may AZ will finish the money and in June will fail.
Nervous? Yes. First Times? No, I've been nervous lots of times. -Airplane!
Aerofede From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter): MXP has been de-hubbed (going to a daily average of only 50 flights) and FCO is now, with a couple exceptions the longhaul and main hub for AZ
To be true, they left 102 flights daily in MXP. 3 longhaul (JFK, NRT and I don't remember the third) and some domestic/european flights mostly downgraded to E145/E170 and AT72.
Many other carriers are moving in, but most of them will need at least six month to complete the move.
AP has already started new flights from MXP, and on May should also start some long-haul, probably ORD and BOS but nothing for sure.
LH seems to be really interested in coming to MXP to bring us back to grandeur.
But, best of all,
Milano is now home to the Expo 2015, so MXP will be improved (someone is even talking about the long-sought-after third runway) to accommodate the likely big traffic increase.
For the reason of this move to FCO, when MXP is giving AZ 80% of their tickets: keep away from italian state-owned enterprises, they are just big money black holes! And our politician should stick to their job.
The only way to save AZ: make them go bankrupt and start all over again like Swissair. (and maybe be bought by LH).
Baw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 31 Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3698 times:
Quoting Aerofede (Reply 22): The only way to save AZ: make them go bankrupt and start all over again like Swissair. (and maybe be bought by LH).
Well, I disagree with this very strongly....
NycFly75,
The numbers look pretty good; unfortunately, LF is only one component...we need to get at where the traffic is originating and what kind of yield they are getting. You can have a 100% full flight, but if the yield suck, you still lose money.
However...the numbers on the face of it do look encouraging.
Now, to the question of MXP...
AZ should maintain a significant O&D presence there; however, the hub operation is better suited at FCO for a number of reasons not the least of which is weather reliability. IF the AF/KL deal is allowed to go forward (which I support), between AF/KL/AZ, there should be enough presence at MXP to keep LH from coming in and cleaning house (which is what they want to do in cooperation with AirOne).
The big problem as I see it right now is Silvio Berlusconi. He believes that AZ should remain in Italian hands. My problem with that is that there is not an entity in Italy sufficiently strong enough to be able to take on AZ and rework it to be the carrier that it can be. AirOnes interest in AZ is to chop it up, take the pieces that look good to them and align the whole thing with Star Alliance...which is the worst possible situation for Italy, because then you have the Germans in control of Italy's flying instead of French/Dutch/Italian ownership and cooperation. The AirOne solution is just wrong on so many levels I can't begin to explain it without writing a book.
Mr. Berlusconi has essentially said that the AF/KL deal is dead if he becomes PM. Unfortunately, and as successful a businessman as Mr. Berlusconi has been, I'm a little surprised that he is taking such a stance; but of course, if he wants to get elected PM, he has to take such a stance. It is a position that is not in the long term best interest of Italy.
Reason: AZ will have a much higher profile position in SkyTeam as a part of AF/KL/AZ tripartate brand, with integrated ownership and streamlined operations. AF/KL has made tons of money, have a pretty good product and are able to do the kinds of things together that they were not able to do separately. Add to this that AF/KL have the management knowhow to do what needs to be done with AZ to make them a world class carrier...and let me be clear..there is a lot less that needs to be done with AZ to make it a world class carrier than it would appear. Having worked in management at AZ in North America, I learned a lot about not only what happens in North America, but the political realities of the management in Rome and one of those realities is the insidious involvement of the Italian government in the running of the airline. The key to making AZ successful is getting the government out of the airline business. It is not about it being an "italian" company...as much as Berlusconi wants to make it an issue. The key is having an Italian airline (partially owned by the French and the Dutch) that is part of a much larger, stronger network that can bring the kind of resources to the table that can make the kind of positive changes at AZ that are needed.
I love AZ...and I love Italy. The people that work at AZ are some of the brightest people (and people with a lot of heart) that I've ever had the privilege to work with over the years I've been in this business. However, the reality is that there needs to be some outside influence brought to bear to make AZ the kind of carrier I know it can be. Is it going to be easy? No. That said, the plan outlined by AF/KL does the kinds of things necessary to strengthen AZ and bring it to the level of AF and KL. We need to allow the deal to go through and then we can see what kind of carrier AZ can be...and this is not to say that they will abandon MXP. If AZ does the kind of O&D flying, combined with its SkyTeam alliance partners, Italy will benefit substantially from that arrangement. We just need to allow that to happen.
However Mr. Berlusconi needs to get on board. How we get him there is an open question...and I'm open to suggestions.
OK..I'm getting off my soapbox now.
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
25 AIR MALTA: Time for OpenSkies to jump and start services to the US from MXP.
26 MAH4546: While it is entirely unscientific, you can always get some sort of idea of how a route is doing fare-wise by looking at fare specials. Right now durin
27 Bennett123: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7323064.stm IMO, unless some people get their heads out of the sand, this will all be academic.
28 Aerofede: Last year MXP had a lot less days of bad weather than FCO. Even the Milan fog days are over. Everytime the wind blows strong fro west or east FCO bec
29 ComeAndGo: It has always been about the pilots wanting to "live" in Rome rather than in Milan. Because Unions in Italy have a lot more to say then in other west
30 Beagleboys: i quote everything you wrote. Think at that: from MXP you can can cover easly all the world. Just think what you can do with a 777-200LR from mxp you
31 Cgnnrw: Since AZ is cutting most of their intercontinental flights which carriers are still operating long haul to/from MXP?
32 Beagleboys: If you mean line services there are no italian carrier actually on long-haul, only BV, GJ, NO, I9 and LV doing charter service. Maybe AP will start i
33 Beaucaire: AF share wins more than 6% this afternoon in Paris Stock exchange while AZ gains another wopping 9% Talks are still on and Spinetta really tries hard
34 Cgnnrw: I was actually referring to carriers like DL, CO, JA, etc.
35 Okapi: Quite a lot of thoughtful comments on that topic. Yet, Italians must realise that linking Malpensa's future to Alitalia's back in the 90's what everyt
36 Beaucaire: Bienvenu sur a.net,Okapi.. Very sensible and logic post of yours,can't agree more. Issue is that - although lovely people in general- Italian trade-un
37 Beaucaire: http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...cles/newstex/AFX-0013-24178821.htm I would rather deal with AF than Aeroflot if I would be a trade-union leader
38 Amirs: Whats happening with MXP - South America?
39 Misbeehavin: Already happened: Sao Paulo continues to be served 3/week from Malpensa and 6/week from Rome. Buenos Aires (7/week) and Caracas (7/week) are moved to
40 Yellowtail: In the 90's I was on a AZ flt FCO-NBO via JED........a wet leased 762ER from Ansett.....20 of us got on in FCO (after a 8 hour delay)....4 got off an
41 Beaucaire: Reports in France indicate that Spinetta has made some last minutes changes to his plans,reducing the number of retired MD's ,allowing 90 more pilots
42 Papatango: Now what are they going to do about the four 777ER's which are leased from GECAS?
43 Beagleboys: nothing... no one ever speacked to give 'em away...
44 ComeAndGo: It never happened. All we saw was a move of their longhaul and connecting traffic from Rome to Milan. It was a political move because Milan had recei
45 Beaucaire: Last day before the rescue or the desaster - Spinetta is meeting with the unions again since noon-time.It's called the meeting of the decision...eithe
46 AMSGOT: My compliments for expressing your point of view the way you did! I just read at http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=25311 the Italian minister o
47 Beaucaire: It appears that the unions have presented a counter-proposal to Spinetta during the break.. " Economia ALITALIA: SINDACATI PRESENTANO CONTROPROPOSTA A
48 Okapi: According to Italian newspapers, Air France-KLM puts an end on negociations. Is this the end ? Shoul AZ be declared bankrupt, trade unions will surely
49 Icna05e: I also think that MXP is better suited for being AZ's main hub than Rome. Coupled with a decent rail network to Torino, Genoa, Firenze-Bologna-Parma a
50 Bennett123: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7326320.stm Looks as if it is all over.
51 ComeAndGo: AZ has money until June. So, now let's see what Berlisconi's government will do.
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