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10% Of US Pilots Armed; More To Follow.  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Posted (6 years 5 months 7 hours ago) and read 5124 times:
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The age old debate of to arm or not to arm. We discuss it about as often as retiring NW's fleet of DC9. The article is a good read and gives insight to the current program and details about the US Captain that had his weapon discharge while inflight.

Do you feel safer knowing your pilots are armed?

article




 airplane 

All relevant comments are welcome.



110 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5057 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Do you feel safer knowing your pilots are armed?

Yes. I'd say 80% of pilots I know in flight school plan on carrying guns when they go on to professional jobs. Expect the numbers of armed pilots to increase dramatically in the next 10 years.


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5044 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Do you feel safer knowing your pilots are armed?

I fly with pilots who are armed. Do I feel safer knowing they are? No. Part of that reason is that I am the last line of defence before the cockpit door. By the time someone tries to get into the cockpit, I will have exhausted everything possible to make damn sure no one gets there and I have an exhaustive list of things at my fingertips.

I have zero opinion on whether or not they should carry them. I do expect them to maintain some level of responsibility (something tells me the pilot in question on the US flight was showing it off, I digress).

One thing, too, is that the general flying public will never know which pilots are armed on any given flight. This information is on a "need-to-know" basis. The general flying public does not "need-to-know" that.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

allowing pilots to carry guns is something I entirely disagree with.

What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5025 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???

Same argument can be said for FAMs (Federal Air Marshalls).



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5025 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):

What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???

Well, I suspect hell just throw the wheel over hard and plow the plane into the ground.




Oh, you meant if he was armed...


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5025 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???

You can take ANY situation and turn it around to the bizarre anytime. My God, the guy that finally breaks down driving his car or sitting at his desk with a sharp pencil. Nothing is ever a 100% perfect solution but you must do the best you can. If you want a 100% perfect solution you'll still be looking 100 years from now.


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5021 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???

That's really funny considering he's in control of an aircraft carrying a substantial number of people and a hugely destructive amount of fuel.

[Edited 2008-04-01 17:22:30]

User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5019 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Well, I suspect hell just throw the wheel over hard and plow the plane into the ground.




Oh, you meant if he was armed...

That was good. I got a chuckle out of that.  Smile



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 5019 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Do you feel safer knowing your pilots are armed?

No!
Most pilots have no prior experience in the use of firearms in times when the critical situations. How they would response in a situation where a firearm is needed is still unknown.


User currently offlineKstatepilot From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4996 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Most pilots have no prior experience in the use of firearms in times when the critical situations. How they would response in a situation where a firearm is needed is still unknown.

I disagree with that statement, considering that a large number of airline pilots are ex military...


User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4995 times:



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
My God, the guy that finally breaks down driving his car or sitting at his desk with a sharp pencil.

The thing with this argument is that a few hundred people aren't at risk of going down with him, but your point is valid.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4992 times:
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Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Most pilots have no prior experience in the use of firearms in times when the critical situations

There are still a good portion of pilots flying that got their training in the military - thus they would have some knowledge of defense with a firearm.

 twocents 


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 896 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4968 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):

Well, I suspect hell just throw the wheel over hard and plow the plane into the ground.




Oh, you meant if he was armed...

Tongue in cheek answer aside, this is a good point. If a pilot is suicidal AND willing to kill all passengers on board along with themself, there is really nothing to stop them from sucker punching their co-pilot and taking the plane down with the cockpit door locked. The presence or lack thereof of a firearm doesn't really affect the doomsday scenario at all really. Now, most suicidal people are merely depressed and not looking to kill a plane full of passengers, but nonetheless, let's pray something like that NEVER happens.


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1612 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

If I was an airline pilot, or an aspiring one for that matter, I would have no desire to carry a gun while at work. It is just one more thing to worry about, and it garners you no pay increase. I would feel no safer myself with a gun, nor would I if I knew the folks in the engine room were packing. But hey, that's just me.


Hey Swifty
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4928 times:



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 10):
I disagree with that statement, considering that a large number of airline pilots are ex military...

But did they ever use their weapons in self-defense?? Big difference real life vs. training.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

While having no real opinion either way I honestly see no need whatever for it, nor do I see what real purpose it's supposed to serve. IMO it's only a feel-good factor and a chance to think you're John Wayne by carrying a gun.

User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 936 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

Absolutely reprehensible and irresponsible reporting. Should we also divulge how many Secret Service men are watching the President at any given time?


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4897 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 17):
Absolutely reprehensible and irresponsible reporting. Should we also divulge how many Secret Service men are watching the President at any given time?

Tell me, specifically, how many pilots are armed. Also tell me definitively if the pilot of the plane on which I am about to fly is armed.

Nothing can be gained by anyone from the information that has been reported so far.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 5 hours ago) and read 4860 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
What happens that day when a guy is flying and his personal life at home turns to crapp???

The same thing that happens when a Cops personal life turns to crap.. He deals with it or takes time off.

Was it Egyptair that had a case of suicide by airplane? He didn't use a gun.

9/11- Suicide by airplane- no gun involved

Fedex 705- Attempted suicide by DC-10 No gun involved, except for a spear gun.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4816 times:

I feel that pilots with guns are a bit like the role of nuclear weapons in the cold war. It is 99% prevention. I feel that terrorists would be less inclined to try something if they know that a good portion of the pilots are armed. I like the idea of only having a small percentage have the weapons as the more pilots carry them, the more incidents that will happen. Don't have the pilots carry it unconcealed, however, because than people will now when they are not carrying. In this manner a minority percentage of pilots carrying will create universal reaction.

EWR, do they carry the weapon onto the aircraft in site of passengers or is it hidden at all times? The latter would be best.

However, much like in the cold war analogy, if a pilot has to actually use the weapon its bound to wind up badly.


User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 936 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4815 times:



Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
Tell me, specifically, how many pilots are armed. Also tell me definitively if the pilot of the plane on which I am about to fly is armed.

Sure, and divuldge even MORE sercurity sensitive information.

Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
Nothing can be gained by anyone from the information that has been reported so far.

You Sir, underestimate the enemy. To explain more, would tip our hand even further to those who want us dead.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

The Former Marine in me says I'd prefer to be armed at all times regardless, but to stilll try and argue against pilots carrying firearms is little different than the FAM's; I still shake my head in dissapointment of the female FAM who left her firearm in the head at the airport behind the security perimeter - and the FAM's are supposed to be some of the most proficient in handguns as any Federal entity!

User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4789 times:



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
EWR, do they carry the weapon onto the aircraft in site of passengers or is it hidden at all times? The latter would be best.

Fu, it is hidden from all. The latter is best.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 4744 times:



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 10):
ex military...

Oftentimes ex military means very little when it comes to handguns.

Pilots being armed is probably fine. But, the funny thing is, people will die accidentally because of it. Maybe in the airport cafeteria, or in the First Class section or on the bus to the hotel. But, rest assured that people will die. That is true wherever civilians carry handguns. And a pilot out of his chair is just a civilian, prone to mistakes, getting drunk, angry, trying to break up a robbery, or what have you.

So hopefully it is worth the cost.


25 TUNisia : This thread reminds me why I feel safer and more at ease flying on non-US carriers.
26 EWRCabincrew : Egypt Air flight 990 comes to mind.
27 Flighty : Usually. I have seen a few guns on belts. Whaddya do... you just assume they are supposed to be there. Sort of strange. So, if I see a man with a gun
28 Xclozano : There is a commercial for a gun store here where I live in South Texas, and they have a slogan at the end of the commercial that says "Its better to h
29 Pilotpip : Gun or not, there's still a crash axe up there. I also have absolutely no confidence that the TSA will protect the aircraft from people that wish to c
30 Post contains images NWA742 : No. Any FFDO must pass through comprehensive training and actually prove abilities with a gun. When they are accepted into the program, they official
31 Nucsh : Well put, and it sums up my sentiments exactly. Personally, I plan to apply to the FFDO as soon as possible after being hired.
32 ShyFlyer : You would have valid point if we (and the linked article) were reporting the names and photos of armed pilots. We are not. Only "guestimates."
33 MarcoPoloWorld : Well then, please tell me what airline you plan to apply with, because I sure don't want to fly with captain "John Wayne" or "Dirty Harry". Don't we
34 Pilotpip : I'll move from the stone age when I don't have to worry about people wanting to do bad things. In the meantime, I will do anything I can to prevent i
35 Post contains images Scbriml : Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! The article is just generalisation upon generalisation, no information that is
36 SQ325 : Arming pilots for me is the top of all nonsense and paranoia we have seen in the aviation security since 9/11! You get a plastic knife for your meal b
37 ZKSUJ : Interesting Subject If all flight crew eventually need this training, then so be it. But... Tazers are OK IMO to incapacitate an offender and then res
38 CosmicCruiser : No one has ever used their weapon in self defense until the first time. If someone makes it past security and there are a number of ways still being
39 Post contains images Ty134A : The question is, if 10% of the pilots is armed, how many passengers are? Maybe we could increase the number by installing gun shops on the A380, I bet
40 Joni : This may sound like a stupid question, but how do they get the guns past airport security? I thought trying to bring a gun on board got you 100 years
41 Goaliemn : you could say the same thing about most police officers. All have training, but a small percentage ever fire their gun.
42 Miller22 : How useful are guns in a 6 x 8 cockpit? They're not, unless you open the cockpit door, which you NEVER do. This is just another attempt by the TSA to
43 Elite : Correct, and if they do open the cockpit door, I fear something like what happened in the movie Con Air will happen.
44 Lowrider : Probably the best analogy I have read. I have a lot of emergency equipment on board. I hope to never use any of it. I must be prepared to use all of
45 CosmicCruiser : If my memory serves me correct the FBI stats show most gunfights take places in areas the size of a room. It ain't like the "shootout at the OK corra
46 AirNZ : So this is really what it's all about for many.....the chance to wear a flashy, shiny 'police' badge Great, you simply want to become a 'super-hero'
47 CosmicCruiser : Of the crewmembers I've had in my cockpit that did have a weapon there was NO "flashy badge". and they were professional on both accounts. You've obv
48 Miller22 : How many of those gunfights occur with the FBI seated within 4 feet of the door facing the wrong way with their guns locked away in their FAA approve
49 Lowrider : The two often go together, especially in close quarters. I suggest some reading under the topic of "Weapon Retention". You might have a few things to
50 MDorBust : The weapon is not in the locked container while the pilot is in the cockpit. The weapon is worn on the pilot at that time. How many attempted hi-jack
51 Goaliemn : Can you show me the same on ElAl flights? They have someone armed in the cockpit on every flight. If my memory is correct, there haven't been any hij
52 Miller22 : That happened about 20% of the time I am in the cockpit. The other 80% the weapon is still in the box. It's a good thing too, because not a single gu
53 Flighty : Come on, guns are very dangerous. It is well known that a gun in the home is 7 times more likely to kill an occupant of that home, than to shoot an i
54 NWA742 : I highly doubt that, seeing as security guards making $8 an hour are also issued shiny metal badges. No, I simply want to become the last line of def
55 Lowrider : No we don't. Not compared to driving, eating fast food, smoking, drinking, getting hit by lightning, riding motorcycles, owning swimming pools, or li
56 CosmicCruiser : Yeah after he tried to light the shoe fuse 4 times someone finally got suspicious and I believe there was a j/s crewmember across the aisle. More peo
57 Flighty : I agree with you. But that has not happened lately in the USA... meanwhile we did get a bullet hole in the US A319. And off-duty guns tend to fire in
58 MSYPI7185 : All this whole topic is boiling down to is your personal preference. We know that FAM are not on every flight just like not all pilots are FFDO's. I p
59 Post contains links BHMBAGLOCK : Here's one where it would have been useful: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9E05E5DF173EF93BA35757C0A962958260 These Fedex pilots were lucky t
60 Lowrider : Statistically speaking, you are right. It is a relatively small number. It is the method that is shocking. I suspect the problem on the USAir flight
61 Aa757first : That doesn't seem like a good idea. What's the benefit? I think that is the ultimate question here. I can't imagine a situation where it would be bet
62 MDorBust : If you admit there is no possible statistical correlation because the event has yet to happen, why do you insist on building the foundation of your a
63 Bond007 : You may wish to research your facts a little better next time. Somewhere around
64 MDorBust : Before you go chastising people for poor research.. you may wish to do some yourself. The total number of firearms homicides per year averages around
65 Bond007 : I did, and what I wrote is correct, but thanks for your advice. Jimbo
66 Post contains links Luv2cattlecall : Speaking of revealing sensitive info.. nothing beats the Sheraton in FLL that declared the Air Marshall program as its "Customer of the Month" due to
67 Miller22 : This was decades prior to 9/11. Did they have kevlar cockpit doors? Did they have detailed jumpseating policy which would have prevented this lunatic
68 Lowrider : That is a common misconception. It is not supposed benefit the passengers. It is supposed to benefit people on the ground. The only potential benefit
69 A380US : What about cops, soldiers or anyone else issued a gun? And if they wanted couldnt they just crash the plane?
70 BHMBAGLOCK : Did you read my whole post? Most people here are familiar with the story. In any case, I did provide references with the whole story for anybody who
71 AirNZ : Firstly, if you had bothered to actually read the context of my post you would clearly see that no 'insult' was intended.....indeed, I specifically s
72 Miller22 : Good, so we agree on something. Reinforced cockpit doors and a more secure jumpseat policy would have prevented that attack. Just as classified is th
73 Lowrider : If accuracy has that little importance to you, perhaps it is a good thing you have no interest in the program. My point was that there are thousands
74 Osu_av8or : The same basic argument against arming pilots would be the same applied to police officers. Police officers are far more likely to be killed by their
75 MDorBust : No, what you wrote is not correct because legally justified homicide is only a fraction of what constitutes legal self defense. Really? There's only
76 Bond007 : No, I disagree. Again, I disagree. I don't see this in the FAR's, where they are supposed to protect us from potential terrorists. Their job is to FL
77 Miller22 : It's not the one incident that's the problem. It's the complete lack of benefit and increase in chances of an incident for all of that cost that's th
78 MDorBust : Still passing off unsubstantiated opinion as fact. Yet you still trust these very same "idiots" with hundreds of tons of metal and human bodies screa
79 Lowrider : I have witnessed none of the above. If you, as a captain, let any of the above slide, then you should be embarrassed. Some folks always get through t
80 Osu_av8or : How can one FLY the aircraft safely when he allows control of the aircraft to be taken from him? Why do the regulations impose a duty of safe operati
81 CosmicCruiser : his mind is made up no matter what facts you site, forget it.
82 Bond007 : I'd love to ask them, but I'm going to have a VERY tough time finding them, believe me. Then let's take it a step further. Why don't pilots also sear
83 CaptOveur : They could They could They could I know there is something in the FARs about the pilot being the person ultimately responsible for the safety of the
84 AirNZ : "facts" are totally irrelevant, because they simply don't exist to quantify this discussion. There are NO 'facts' to substantiate any claims that pil
85 Bond007 : That wasn't what I asked. I asked if they 'should'. The problem is that you haven't told us ANY facts. I've mentioned one in response to your last fe
86 OSU_av8or : Yet you keep ignoring the fact that not all cases of self-defense involving a firearm result in a death, and thus your statistics are skewed. Perhaps
87 Bond007 : Sorry, I missed this one! Since I mention facts, it might be appropriate to reply with factual corrections. It actually doesn't constitute a fraction
88 Post contains images NWA742 : -NWA742
89 AirNZ : Before you start feeling yourself to be important, why don't you show us you can actually read, much less understand,.......by quoting my entire comm
90 NWA742 : Relax, I read your entire post. I just thought that particular statement was hilarious. -NWA742
91 AirNZ : Yes, I understand what you're saying but please note my comments have been in response to the nonsensical fantasies of some here, and not questioning
92 CosmicCruiser : If you had attended a cockpit defense course you might understand the capibilities and logic behind such training. You (meaning all that use this as
93 Miller22 : You're forgetting that not all pilots report through TSA at their base. It is very likely, and I can assure you has happened several times, that an F
94 Miller22 : This would have merit, if there were any examples to cite. There are zero. Absolutely nil. Sure, it looks good when you type it in your keyboard, but
95 Goaliemn : exactly. It was against the law to be armed on campus. If some of the students/teachers/security had been armed, it may have been fewer deaths. So ha
96 MDorBust : Yes, it represents a fraction of legal self defense with a firearm... So why do you keep attempting to represent it as the totality of legal self def
97 Osu_av8or : This is taken completely out of context. I was rebuffing an argument that people carrying firearms in general were no safer than people who do not. H
98 MDorBust : You are still attempting to argue based on a null position. There have been zero attempted hi-jacking since the FFDO program has been implemented, so
99 Post contains links 767Lover : No. Not that many will get into the Federal Flight Deck Officer program. My husband lost a good friend on this flight. http://www.airdisaster.com/spe
100 Bond007 : I don't. LOL ... this is painful. Nowhere am I representing it to be whole ... my statistic is very clear. Like I said, if YOU want to discuss a DIFF
101 Lowrider : While tragic, the resemblance between a terminated employee who purchased a ticket, then used void credentials, which should have been seized upon te
102 MDorBust : You are quite clearly equating the 5% figure with the totality of self defense. You last sentance proves it beyond a doubt. "So much for increasing s
103 Bond007 : Which part of the following is SO hard to understand??? That's what I said. What exactly are you trying to say is incorrect. If you don't believe it,
104 MDorBust : Odd, you clipped off a part of what you said there? Remember this part? "So much for increasing safety ..." The part where you tie together the 5% nu
105 Bond007 : Uhh ...oh, me??? LOL! Please look at how much effort you've spent trying to refute one single sentence (which is factually correct and I've seen no e
106 MDorBust : I noticed you didn't bother with the NCVS or to provide the poll that purportedly demonstrates that intelligence and firearm ownership have an invers
107 Arrow : Interesting thread. I don't think pilots should have guns, but I'm not going to get in a knot over it. BUT -- question. How does this work on internat
108 Miller22 : Pilots have no juristiction to use their guns outside the cockpit. This rule distinctly references issues in the aiport. They also are strictly forbi
109 Goaliemn : Its hard to prove something helped something else not happen.. There is no concrete evidence available showing that having armed captains in the cock
110 TUIflyer : ARM! I am not usually in favour of any civilians having guns of any sort (read my previous posts) but you only have to look at how many terrorist hija
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