ENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13923 times:
Talks about a takeover of Alitalia by Air France-KLM have been abandoned and the Italian airline's chairman Maurizio Prato has quit.
Quote: Air France-KLM chief Jean-Cyril Spinetta on Wednesday rejected counter-proposals by unions at Alitalia to his takeover bid for the failing Italian carrier and left the negotiating table, a union official said.
"Mr. Spinetta rejected the proposal and left the negotiations," Guido Barcucci of the FILT-CGIL union told AFP.
Not really unexpected, but a pity after all the effort. Any solution must be found soon, before the Italian elections.
CuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 674 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 13896 times:
This is intricately linked to Italy's messy politics. They are unable to keep stable governments, meanwhile their economy ends up in the worst situation. Alitalia will remain a good example of this.
They will end up with a downsized ghost of themselves owned by Berlusconi's friends at Air One, the same way SABENA became a shadow of itself in Brussels Airlines and Swiss the Zurich hub of Lufthansa.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8479 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13586 times:
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 1): They will end up with a downsized ghost of themselves owned by Berlusconi's friends at Air One, the same way SABENA became a shadow of itself in Brussels Airlines and Swiss the Zurich hub of Lufthansa.
maybe that is no bad thing - a fresh start seems to have worked for Brussels Airlines and for Swiss - I was never convinced that even Spinetta could turn around AZ - it was just too far gone
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Glareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1292 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13567 times:
Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 1): They will end up with a downsized ghost of themselves owned by Berlusconi's friends at Air One
Which would not be so very different with AF/Kl in control.... The downside IMO is that with AirOne the Italians are going to pay more for tickets after all the money they have given Alitalia as tax payers. So Italian voters: thank your philanthropic business-man politician Mr. Berlusconi for that.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1443 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13388 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Reply 5): Is there any chance that a carrier like LH or similar will might make a bid on AZ?
only if they are totally crazy. I was already surprised seeing AF/KLM trying to get into AZ. I still believe that the only way to rebuild AZ is to blow up the entire company and start again from zero. But I don' t see this happen.
The Italian people will vote for Berlusconi and he will put state money into AZ and the same we saw the last years will continue.
JPRM1 From France, joined Aug 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13119 times:
European Union will not allow any new money from the italian government.
Berlusconi and Unions lost and AZ will now collapse. Aeroflot? I do not see how they could manage such a company. LH is already engaged in Italy and will take benefit from the collapse of AZ.
The only possibility for me was AF/KL proposal, but hopefully, this failed as I think AZ is impossible to manage.
Swissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12914 times:
It looks like a real "spaghetti opera" (no offend to any one) however I have to agree things have gone to far even with a take over for 1$...............
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2): maybe that is no bad thing - a fresh start seems to have worked for Brussels Airlines and for Swiss - I was never convinced that even Spinetta could turn around AZ - it was just too far gone
Could not agree more and there are not to many options left for the good old AZ since the talks broke off.......
Quoting LH4116 (Reply 5): Is there any chance that a carrier like LH or similar will might make a bid on AZ?
I do not think LH would take on such a mess, however if there is a "New AZ" why not......LUFTI all the way
Lijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 558 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12785 times:
I guess dealing with the currator will be easier than with the unions and politicians. I am not seeing any other airline move in to 'rescue' AZ without similair conditions that AF-KL wanted. Alitalia on ebay...
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12532 times:
If AZ goes down the one who will benefit most is AP. They will become the main Italian airline and hopefully if they do they will be able to expand to the size of AZ. It sucks when an a legacy carrier goes down, but it was sort of inevitable.
Bardoman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11902 times:
Quoting Swissy (Reply 11): It looks like a real "spaghetti opera" (no offend to any one)
It sounds offensive-ish, but unfortunately it sums up the whole mess.
What happened is beyond unbelievable. This deal may have gone through if we hadn't elections in two weeks (not even sure about that, as for some bureaucratic cock-up they may be postponed. And I also spent £200 to go and vote!). Both the unions and Mr. Berlusconi stirred up a fuss about selling out to the French, losing jobs and national pride. I can't believe that liberalizations and privatizations are set up by a left-wing government, and undone by a would-be "liberal" prime minister.
Traindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11879 times:
Atitalia is losing about 2 million euros daily. They can only last about 4 to 6 weeks at most, without a buyout/takeover. Even if Berlusconi wins, he has to form a new government. One thing certain is that the Italians can't agree on anything! I know that first hand as I am married to one.
I am supposed to fly AZ from OTP to MXP on May 1st. I may be on one of their last flights. On the other hand, I will have to fly someone else if they shut down. At least I will be prepared with a plan B.
ComeAndGo From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 959 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11831 times:
yes, but ...
You also have to see whether the AF deal was any good for the country. It's easy to claim that AZ, swissair and sabena are all the same. Italy is a country with close to 60 million people. It's not Switzerland. Moving flights to Rome would result in more harm than do any good. Sure the void would've been filled by other airlines, but Italian taxpayers paid for this airline. And now they witnessed how the French airline conspired with AZ managment to take over the carrier and run it as feeder for their successful French/Dutch operations. Sure there's problems with the unions and they're the main hurdle to a successful turnaround. AZ has money until June. If AP was given the clearance to run the airlines without interference by the unions, we might see a slightly different version of todays AZ with not 2 hubs but apparently 6. Of course Milan and Rome only will get longhaul. Considering the dinamic economies in the various regions of Italy the AP model could actually work. Run AZ like Southwest or Ryanair, not as a low cost carrier, but as a carrier that focuses on given economic regions like Venice in the Veneto region (plastic injection molding, glass, appareal), Bologna (food), Torino (automotive, machine tool) - connect these various industries with their customers and suppliers. Then connect each regional city hub with the main hub for longhaul travel. I don't think the AP model is off, it maybe different than all other EU mainline carriers. The main stumbling block is once again the unions that hate AirOne because their competition led to layoffs at AZ
The point is that taxpayers should stop subsidizing the airline. If a takeover by a foreign company is the only viable solution, then let it be. There has been a tender to bid in the last few month, open to pretty much anyone, and AF/KLM ended up being the only one willing to agree to the conditions set by the government (they may have tailored such conditions to leave AF as the only serious contender, but that's another story). If Alitalia ends up being a feeder airline for AF, but is able to walk on its legs, I don't see a problem.
As for what hub structure and which routes to develop, let the free market speak: if there is a demand, I'm sure somebody will fill the gap. If, for some reason, there is the need to keep unprofitable routes alive, the government may subsidize such routes (rather than the whole of Alitalia). If Malpensa is such a huge cash-cow, airlines will flock in. If not, why should taxpayers keep footing the bill?
It's time to shake up Italy, and Alitalia may be a good starting point.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3193 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11731 times:
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 19): en connect each regional city hub with the main hub for longhaul travel. I don't think the AP model is off, it maybe different than all other EU mainline carriers. The main stumbling block is once again the unions that hate AirOne because their competition led to layoffs at AZ
The same thing happens right around the world. Unfortunately these guys generally don't believe it can happen to them until its too late. Honestly, its time to let AZ die. Let it run out of crash, then let the crisis happen, let the assets, including name get sold to the highest bidders and they can then pick up profitable pieces and use them. The AZ brand is worth something, and somebody will no doubt buy it but nobody wants to buy AZ's problems.
Another airlien can employ some of AZ's staff...the better ones, on reasonable terms and conditions and something profitable and sustainable rise from the ashes.
Pihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 3978 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11504 times:
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 19): Moving flights to Rome would result in more harm than do any good.
I would have thought that one of AZ's woes was being forced by the government to use two hubs in FCO and MXP.
Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 19): Italian taxpayers paid for this airline. And now they witnessed how the French airline conspired with AZ management to take over the carrier and run it as feeder for their successful French/Dutch operations.
Exactly where it hurts the most : Where did you read that ? Are now 777s considered regional feeders between FCO and CDG/AMS ?
Sorry but your post, in my very humble opinion on the subject resumes the Italian view of the proposed merger/takeover : It boils down to national pride, starting with the .10€ price of an Alitalia share...my friends in Italy told me that was an insult. OK, but how would you call the immediate re-capitalisation of 1 BN€ then ?
I just wonder , had il signor Berlusconi not advertised a national solution, whether the deal could have been made..
Let's face it, we only have two scenarios :
1/- Alitalia disappears, all assets will be for sale, including the very juicy slots ex FCO and LIN and MXP and with their respective grandfathers rights, big airlines, AF/KL, BA, LH will get the lions'shares.The EU will not allow another Italian airline to be reborn with all these slots in the basket.
I might add that I do not believe that EasyJet or RyanAir would carve the country soon : There are for the moment too many obstacles that the government could ask : Year-long services to all regions for instance.
2/- Berlusconi has the financial backing of northern Italian financiers ( where have they been so far ? ), but the problem remains whole...in two years-time, max, bankruptcy...back to scenario # 1.
One thing ,though, is quite admirable : a collective suicide requires a lot of courage...and a great deal of foolishness.
On a personal level, I feel really bad as I owe three of my Dutch colleagues a dinner in a very good restaurant. They proved me foolish, too, as they never believed - prior experience, they say - that the merger would ever see the day.
Art From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11420 times:
Quoting Traindoc (Reply 18): Atitalia is losing about 2 million euros daily. They can only last about 4 to 6 weeks at most, without a buyout/takeover.
I thought they were "only" losing about a million a day. As an act of desperation, they could sell some assets to stay afloat until Berlusconi forms an administration. Berlusconi may be able to find a way of inducing some non-Italian government entity to "invest" in the company. I recall that a year or so ago the Italian government secured some cash from the German (or was it Austrian) merchant banking sector by making it clear that failure to stump up some cash for Alitalia would lead to disadvantages in dealing in the Italian market in their normal business activities. If Berlusconi does not get back into power I expect Alitalia to go bust.
Aeroflot coming to the rescue? Doubt it - they pulled out of bidding for the company last year on the grounds that they were denied full access to Alitalia's books. I think it is now too late for Aeroflot to get involved again and even if they did, they might again be denied access to the financial data they need to scrutinise in order to make an informed decision.
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 22): Expect Ryanair and Easyjet to slice up the market within months.
And Air One.
I wonder if AF/KL would also be interested in parts of the corpse. They must now have a very clear idea of what parts of Alitalia could be profitable.
: This is really embarrassing and disappointing... I was really expecting to see AZ be saved by any of these previously mentioned giants and now seems l
: Unfortunately I am of the opinion that the best option is for Alitalia to continue to run themselves into oblivion. Anyone who buys it will inherit a
: AirOne offered .01€ !! There's damage being done to the city of Milan and to the economy of the country. There always seems to be only two possible
: had some problems posting the first response so posted it again and then it appeared twice, sorry.[Edited 2008-04-02 20:11:35]
: They can be as insulted as they like, they can be insulted out of a job. Why would anyone pay more for a failed airline? Alitalia was, for this passe
: slightly off topic but anyone who questions the benefit of a two party political system, look to Italy to see what happens when you have many parties
: This is the official press-release of Air France: Communiqué de presse AIR FRANCE - KLM | (02/04/2008 21:44:00) AIR FRANCE - KLM AIR FRANCE - KLM : C
: For those who do not speak French, the AF statement can be translated quite briefly as "Adieu Alitalia". Oh dear! Just realised there is an English v
: This is just insane. While I agree that politics has a great deal to do with what is going on at AZ...the failure of the negotiations means that AZ as
: Not good for Air France neither,since their long-term vision was to have another major European carrier under their umbrella.AZ was a great opportunit
: I'm not saying the SU is going to make an offer now that AF/KL have pulled out, but I do know that SU wants to grow horizontally, and they would like
: Is anyone else just plain tired of the Alitalia drama? I don't wish for any business to fail, but I'm sure tired of this one dragging it out for so lo
: I think unlikely. They do not have anywhere near the resources of AZ and LH is not going to fund another carrier just for the Italian market. AirOne
: I don't think Aeroflot could manage AZ. AZ ia too big, too many union problems, old fleet (a substantial part of it). After all Aeroflot made vast inv
: I have to say that at this point it just seems a matter of time until some major supplier such as a refuelling company turns round to AZ and says " so
: Here we go again ! Politics, thanks to the forthcoming elections have proven to be as pervasive as before. From the Lega Nord politicians based around
: Good! Better for AFKL, AZ was too big a mess for anyone... The question now is: Where will AFKL put their money now? IB? OK? DLNW?
: There is no viable alternative currently to AZ - IB is tied to British Airways,US carriers can't be bougth because of a 25% clause,Chinese carriers ar
: If indeed they fold wouldn't they do it after the Summer peak? I guess the Summer season is kind of high season and thus generating more cash flow tha
: Now that AFKL is over, I suspect the end will come quite quickly. Once the creditors demand cash, it will be all over.
: Just of the ticker : MILAN (Dow Jones)--Lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) envisage d'approcher à nouveau Alitalia SpA (AZA.MI) après l'échec des négociations
: What about Spanair? It's not that big, but I recon that SAS has been indicating that they're willing to sell Spanair...
: I wonder how different LH's offer could be. With MUC being in real competition wih MXP, and EN the best tool to move pax from northern Italy to southe
: Bonjour Okapi -brillantes postes de toi ! The scenario today is just to foggy to make any viable forecasts -ton's of roumours circle (most of them are
: As an italian taxpayer, I absolutely want AZ to go bankrupt: I could not accept one more cent of my taxes goes in rescuing this unionized, money-sucki
: ENCRJ - I can feel with you - what a historic waste of money and energy has been pumped into AZ.. VCE and BLQ are fortunately relatively well connecte
: I can understand your regional defence of MXP and of a North League view of the situation, but sometimes it helps to not underestimate these airlines
: Italy is definitely a large market. The shape of the country and the obvious lack of serious infrastructure call for a strong and dynamic network, hen
: What will happen with Air Alps? Are they still codesharing or operating on wet lease agreements? HBDAN
: For the right amount of money and Union concessions, it's not crazy. The problem with AZ is that the Unions want something they can't have. Like so m
: I'm with you 100%. Enough is enough. They had their very last chance and blew it, so let them go bankrupt or better let their fleet be grounded, sinc
: Heh I'm sure some YouTuber is busy with his editing right now.
: Yup, going bankrupt seems to be the only way out. However, Italians taxpayers should be aware that their money is spent to fund several other actors o
: I've made a rough and approximate assessment of how much it will cost the Italian state and taxpayer to pay those 20.000 laid off worker .. If you con
: A.net sometimes make me wonder : 50% of the posters bash A, 50% bash B, and 100% bash the unions. What is it about. The Italian unions have valid cont
: As a taxpayer, I am prepared to pay jobless payments, even if they exceed the amount of money the Italian state threw into AZ. The reason is simple: j
: Some union leader was interviewed on TV here this morning, and what a farce it was. He was whaling that the government has abandoned Alitalia, that it
: They said the same thing 10 years ago and nothing happened. While big airlines consolidate, small ones expand and after 10 years the small ones are a
: Let them die, then. These people are so short-sighted and selfish that they prefer to be doomed all together, rather than accepting a reasonable sacr
: This is sad news for AZ. It only shows how biased the politicians and the unions are. I think that the only way to make them understand what's going o
: This might be a dumb question, but my brother is flying Alitalia in August... is there any chance he will end up losing his ticket? It already happene
: Update: -LH has said that they are not interested to buy AZ. They didn't make any offer today for AZ. -AZ Boards is now deciding if they should elect
: Both of them should retire from politics .... my 0.02 € about them... AZ should file the Italian version of "chapter 11" Did you told her that AZ i
: Are you REALLY sure this has nothing to do with Berlusconi?
: You do not understand the Italian soul. They love to dance on a volcano. And if it errupts, so better you are in the center! At least you have a very
: Ah really? What exactly would Berlusconi have done better? (other than playing politics by calling for an "Italian" solution to the future of Alitali
: thats really offensive. i'm an FA and university student and like so many collegues we are really worried about our future. If u understand italian a
: An article in "Le Monde": http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...m_1030678_3234.html#ens_id=1019802 In short: the government of Mr Prodi will try so s
: And that is the downfall for AZ.............. Well there is not much AF/KL has to offer at this point and time considering AZ is in such a big red ho
: C'mon dude... Either put a smiley or keep these kind of comments for yourself, as there isn't shortage of stereotypes about Germans either... It migh
: Again, I couldn't agree more. I just have the awful feeling that some messy and senseless solution will soon be considered by the government (or the
: You beat me to it while I was writing the above post
: Unless the Pope & all the bishops in the vacatican hold a prayer vigil & God intervenes, I believe Alitalia has reached a point now where they are bey
: Alitalia will not liquidate. If Enrico Letta, who basically Prime Minister Prodi's Chief of Staff cannot mediate an agreement between AF and the union
: Those contracts will be worth less than toilet paper when AZ closes shop. Moreover, they are a result of political corruption and unrealistic expecta
: Sorry to bother you but the taxpayer ain't paying a cent to Alitalia since EU law forbids it... Not only that, Alitalia's suppliers and other service
: Seems to be a change of heart on the unions part: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080403...necompanytakeoveralitaliaairfrance
: As far as I know Air Alps was already on their way out...
: MXP was never the right hub for AZ and was admittedly one of the roots of the problems. Whilst MXP has better yield than FCO, FCO generates more traf
: The unions are perhaps going to use AF-KL as means to delay bankruptcy till the elections. In the meanwhile they are sending a wink to Air One.[Edited
: The domestic market is very season sensitive. The reason ATR's are overloaded is because they are trying to serve all domestic destinations from both
: There is, maybe some hope as (it)... living in France, my only access to foreign newspapers is " Le Courrier International", which gives a good spectr
: They seem to always find creative ways to get around laws, it already happened not long ago, the government has just conceded a huge loan to AZ and i
: Really ?? There's currently a pilot shortage and Emirates is desperately looking for pilots and crew. I don't think they wont find a job. A320, 767 a
: I attended an airline analysts meeting with Michael O'Leary last fall, and he said that Ryanair would "swoop into Milan-Malpensa in the blink of an e
90 DL Widget Head
: You should see about getting yourself booked on another SkyTeam carriar asap.
: Your credit card company would refund you. Most of the times the ticket wouldn't be worth anything anymore though other airlines would probably offer
: Undoing an A.net myth ... So the fleet of gas guzzling MD-82 is old, yes, like some people claim here. As far as I know the MD-82 is more fuel efficie
: Update: Tha board has nominated the new CEO of AZ: Aristide Police (no, they haven't called Sting as CEO...) Corriere della Sera: Aristide Police, nuo
: I could not agree more. Our politicians are masters in "creative finance"
: I think that what you are saying, although I respect your right to say it, is just not an accurate reflection of the situation at AZ. To believe that