LOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1761 times:
I just heard from Fox News that 2 planes collided at exactly 4pm PST off long beach, bodies have been found size of planes or airline have not been determined yet. Water in area is 55-80 feet deep. More reports will come as soon as possible.
JaseWGTN From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 816 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1292 times:
BREAKING NEWS: Mid-Air Collision Off Long Beach Reported
The Coast Guard says it has a report of two small planes colliding over Long Beach Harbor. Eyewitnesses reportedly saw the collision take place. News reports say one body has been recovered and that oil slicks have been spotted. Several rescue craft are on the scene but there are no reports of survivors.
Iainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1186 times:
I doubt anyone will survive, I am pretty sure it is general aviation. Flights schools from SNA, LGB and FUL go to that practice area, and I can tell you from experience it is VERY busy with people stalling and steep at 2000-4000 feet, and above that you have airliners going into SNA and LAX. Also I have flown there many times and would have to wait to to get in contact with approach as it so busy.
MaxPowers From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 475 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1034 times:
THe ATC was probaly not paying attention. Of course it's human error on the atc's, and the 2 pilots faults. THANK GOD that it wasn't a crammed 747-400 from Austraila to LAX and one goting from LAX TO Sydney. That would not be good.
Mit From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 166 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1017 times:
Careful speaking about that which you do not understand very well. Since the floor of Bravo airspace in Long Beach harbor is 7000 feet, these planes were most likely VFR. Aircraft flying VFR are not the responsibility of ATC. The duty to see and avoid traffic falls solely and completely to the pilot in command.
If you're interested in learning more about flying, get one of the excellent Jeppesen private pilot manuals and read up!
Raddog2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 965 times:
I've only been up in GA aircraft a few times (twice in the left seat) but it seems to me that with more and more small aircraft flying around in congested airspace like SoCal, VFR flying with no controlled separation is just too dangerous. You never know where another plane might be -- and just scanning the visual field isn't enough to avoid midair collisions. This is particularly true for student pilots who are busy doing other things. "See and be seen" might be good enough if you're flying around in Wyoming or something, but I honestly think it's no longer good enough for flying around Long Beach, or San Francisco, or similar congested spaces. Maybe they should start designing TCAS for small planes. But in the meantime I'm praying for the families of the victims, and hopefully they will find survivors.
Red Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 939 times:
What was fox news report say about the collision? it makes ppl think that there were an major civil aviation disaster. Maybe that's one of the technique that FOX tried to get ppl's attention to their news. You know, it turns out they are only two light a/c.
Mit From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 166 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 819 times:
Come on, you're a medical student too. You should know better than that.
Try this: "I've only flown economy a few times (twice on long haul) but it seems to me that with more and more people flying long distances, economy class is just too dangerous. You never know when DVT might develop -- and just moving around the cabin isn't always enough. This is particularly true for elderly people who have trouble ambulating. "Move your legs" might be good enough if you're flying LAX-SFO or something, but I honestly think it's no longer good enough for flying LAX-SYD, or similar long trips. Maybe they should start dispensing coumadin for all passengers."
You may "honestly beleive" your opinion, but based on what? You're not a pilot, for one. For another, mid-air collisions between GA airplanes represent a vanishingly small portion of GA risk. From 1991-1999, there were 3245 fatal GA accidents of which 78 were midair collisions. That's 2.5% of GA accidents, or about one per month.
As for additional ATC control or TCAS helping, from where will that money come? Even if you think it's worth spending, the $$ available is finite and will come out another budget, flight school or ATC, that could be spent more effectively to reduce risk. Furthermore,
half of midairs are in traffic patterns, most of which are pretty well controlled already in Southern California, and are so congested that TCAS would be of little use.
I agree with you that these collisions are tragic, and that ways to avoid them should be sought. But please don't wildly suggest expensive, impractical and onerous solutions to a problem you don't really understand.
Iainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 794 times:
About ATC, most people use that area for practicing manuvers stalls, steep turns, ect. There is no requirement to speak to ATC, and most people do not. What I would like to see there is a warning area, so pilots who are unfamiliar know that there is a lot of uncontrolled VFR traffic around!
Raddog2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 737 times:
No, like I said, I'm not a pilot. Yet, anyway. But that doesn't automatically make whatever I say wrong. I'm not a doctor yet either. Would I be wrong to say that smoking increases risk of lung cancer? Midairs in GA craft may be rare, but how many of them are clustered in congested areas? I said that I didn't think VFR was much of a problem in places like Wyoming, and maybe it isn't in Charlottesville. But when you go to places like major metropolitan areas in California, you'll see planes everywhere on a sunny day. And traffic avoidance technology need not be expensive, and could be limited to high traffic areas. Would you be SO averse to such technology that you wouldn't even consider a cost benefit analysis? If the costs outweigh the benefits, fine, leave the system as is. But what if the benefits outweigh the costs?
And if I were you, I wouldn't be so "cavalier" about DVT. While no, I would not suggest prescribing coumadin for everyone, I think it's pretty clear that long distance travel is an aggravating factor for those individuals who are already at risk for DVT and PE. Should we ignore it because it's so rare?
Iainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 686 times:
Regarding my previous posts I meant a 'Alert Area' not a 'Warning Area' I thought about it a bit more during a lecture this afternoon came home a pulled out the books to confirm
Both aircrafts where from Long Beach Flying Club, which recently had problems with the FAA regarding maintenance records, however about 6 months ago they got everything sorted out. They where both training flights, and I highly doubt that where talking to Socal Approach. It was witnessed by a Helicopter pilot in the area.
Long Beach controllers from my experience are not vey good. I was climbing out of there once, and they called traffic at 6 o'clock I read back 'Looking for traffic' then he came back with 'Squawk VFR frequency changes aprroved' I was very shocked at such a thing, and luckily my instructor had the traffic in site. All the time I went into LGB they never seemed very plesant so I went there very rarely!