Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DOT Finally Grants ATI For NW/DL/AF/KL/AZ/OK  
User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7466 times:

At long last: http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...11-870E-5F4029162CE5%7d&siteid=nbs

While embarassed by how long it took to get this through, I'm glad to see that it has finally arrived... and not a moment too soon!

Excerpt:
Northwest Airlines today announced the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) has tentatively approved its application for six-way antitrust immunity with its SkyTeam alliance partners: Delta Air Lines, Air France, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, Alitalia, and CSA Czech Airlines. Final approval is expected to follow after the DOT reviews the final round of comments to its "show cause" order.

[Edited 2008-04-09 15:35:01]


Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7403 times:

I guess I have to update the map to include CZA, and change EWR and IAH to current Skyteam hubs since the map was made with the assumption that UA and CO merged and joined *A.

Big version: Width: 1000 Height: 565 File size: 1655kb


I know it looks like spaghetti but I did the best I could. Anyway, this shows all the routes the ATI will affect aside from OK's routes.



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineStarAlliance38 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7378 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 1):
I guess I have to update the map to include CZA, and change EWR and IAH to current Skyteam hubs since the map was made with the assumption that UA and CO merged and joined *A.

Aahhhhhh.....my eyes! I'm blinded!!!! ahhhhhhh. Too many lines!!!!



Roar, lion, roar
User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7349 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 1):
I know it looks like spaghetti but I did the best I could.

Actually, I'm about to cook up some spaghetti... this only whets my appetite.

But seriously, I regret that CO isn't in on this. They would be a fine addition. In any case, I can only hope that the party starts swiftly. With this, their carriers can streamline operations without completely alienating their workers. ATIs being confidential, it think it's unlikely that ST was able to copy much from *A. Perhaps in due time we'll see who made the better arrangement...

ST's framework seems more expansive, for sure.



Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7334 times:



Quoting NW748i (Reply 3):
I regret that CO isn't in on this.

DL and CO are naturally competitors who are not the closest of buddies. They are about as neck-and-neck, and cutthroat, as any alliance partners have a right to be.


User currently offlineMeta From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7267 times:

This pretty much includes all of the Skytem airlines, why are CO not a very good team player? They don't seem to like being in Skyteam considering that they have competitors in their own alliance.

User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7250 times:

CO joined the same time NW and KL did. But while NW and KL are key players, CO hasn't contributed much, even in America. If they merged with UA they would be out of Skyteam.


2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32884 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

As long as this means AA/BA will finally be granted the ATI they deserve when they apply for a third time, I'm not against this. Otherwise, it is blatantly unfair.


a.
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7203 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
As long as this means AA/BA will finally be granted the ATI they deserve when they apply for a third time, I'm not against this. Otherwise, it is blatantly unfair.

Aren't there any *A carriers looking for ATI as well?



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2095 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7162 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
As long as this means AA/BA will finally be granted the ATI they deserve when they apply for a third time, I'm not against this. Otherwise, it is blatantly unfair.

Now that LHR has been opened up, I'm sure ATI will be granted to AA/BA when they apply.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7097 times:



Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Now that LHR has been opened up, I'm sure ATI will be granted to AA/BA when they apply.

Not necessarily, due to BA holding more than 40% of LHR's slots which, when combined with LHR operating at close to 100% of capacity, makes it very difficult for other carriers to add LHR flights. If they were to approve ATI for BA/AA (and I'm not sure either carrier necessarily still wants it) I expect they would condition it on BA giving up some LHR slots which I doubt BA would consider a fair tradoff. With BA's dominant capacity on LHR-US routes their current code-sharing agreement with AA probably gives them most of what they need for connections to offline US points.


User currently offlineFly2YYZ From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1046 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7061 times:

Why isin't KE part of this?

User currently offlineRunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7041 times:



Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 11):
Why isin't KE part of this?

Because the current joint-ventures only cover service between North America, Europe, India and Tahiti.


User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7008 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
As long as this means AA/BA will finally be granted the ATI they deserve

I was recently told by some who participated in formulating that proposal that some of the confidential stipulations weren't agreeable to DOT. All that I could get out was that revenue sharing was simply not to be granted. Further, someone has already pointed out the slots.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 8):
*A carriers looking for ATI as well?

They already have one.



Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6983 times:



Quoting NW748i (Reply 3):
They would be a fine addition.

Why? What do they bring to the table that DL doesn't already, for the most part, cover quite well?


User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6878 times:

Finally...now we'll see much better coordination (and rationalization) of schedules, code shares and the like. SkyTeam has been in a difficult position against Star Alliance, that has had a similar type of immunity for some time.

This will make things much more competitive for SkyTeam...and at the end of the day, that's a good thing for us travellers.

baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6768 times:



Quoting Fly2YYZ (Reply 11):
Why isin't KE part of this?

DL already has ATI w/ KE. There is no reason for the US gov't to be involved in relationships between Euro carriers and KE so only NW has the potential to be added. For now, NW is probably not interested in ATI w/ KE given the duplication in routes.

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 15):
SkyTeam has been in a difficult position against Star Alliance, that has had a similar type of immunity for some time.

no.... Skyteam has the first multi-US carrier ATI in the industry. Star has no advantage over ST. US does not have ATI with any Star partners.

Also, DL has a far more extensive transatlantic route system than what all of the Star carriers have in terms of routes flown and cities served.

What is significant about the DOT's ruling is that it makes it much easier for DL and NW to merge in the future because their commercial relationships have already been reviewed as being non-competitive. The only thing that would change with a DL/NW merger is that some of the requirements about DL and NW not being able to talk to each other (and they are certainly in there) will be removed.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6653 times:



Quoting BAW716 (Reply 15):
SkyTeam has been in a difficult position against Star Alliance, that has had a similar type of immunity for some time.

How exactly do you come to that conclusion, considering that DL/AF/AZ/OK have had ATI for more than a half-decade, and NW/KL have had it nearly three times as long. All this is, is essentially folding the two into each other, and that's something Star has yet to match. So in essence, you have it backwards.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 16):
so only NW has the potential to be added.

Which they may not even be interested in, considering that NW was the first USA airline to gain ATI with an Asian carrier; and they barely use it even today.


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 16):
Skyteam has the first multi-US carrier ATI in the industry. Star has no advantage over ST. US does not have ATI with any Star partners.

Wow, maybe something we could agree on. NW/KL really invented the alliance, now they have taken it one step further.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6553 times:



Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 18):
Wow, maybe something we could agree on. NW/KL really invented the alliance, now they have taken it one step further.

What do you mean by "invent?" I believe they were the first two airlines to codeshare and work together on international flights, but neither one is a founding member of Skyteam.



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineNYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6513 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 16):
What is significant about the DOT's ruling is that it makes it much easier for DL and NW to merge in the future because their commercial relationships have already been reviewed as being non-competitive.

Not true, they have only reviewed a specific part of their route structure...trans-atlantic specifically. Their domestic route structure and Transpacific are two totally seperate items that would need to be scrutinized.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5463 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6501 times:



Quoting NW748i (Thread starter):
While embarassed by how long it took to get this through, I'm glad to see that it has finally arrived...

They applied on June 28th, 2007. Less than ten months is actually pretty good time for a matter involving more than one department of the government.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23074 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6347 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 19):

What do you mean by "invent?" I believe they were the first two airlines to codeshare and work together on international flights, but neither one is a founding member of Skyteam.

Codesharing and international cooperation sounds to me like inventing the alliance. They were doing it long before Skyteam. Remember Worldwide Service/Worldwide Reliability? (BTW, I sort of miss that logo.)



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6216 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 19):
What do you mean by "invent?"

They, KL and NW, were the first to really create world wide alliance.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineNW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 362 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6189 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 21):
Less than ten months is actually pretty good time for a matter involving more than one department of the government.

My point: What does this say about the pace of things in the government? But I won't even get started... as long as I do my part... always in a timely fashion.



Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
25 Cubsrule : Thanks for posting that pic...
26 MasseyBrown : The US Govt is generally not bad in a crisis; but, otherwise, it just muddles along. If you look at the Constitution, it's designed to be that way. A
27 Sbworcs : Whilst I applaud this and agree it is good. I think it is unfair that BA/AA may not get the same benfits because of slots @ LHR. What is the reasoning
28 BOStonsox : That's what I thought you meant. I knew that the first codesharing and cooperation were done between NW and KL. But I wasn't sure if by "invent" you m
29 Bobnwa : They probably haven't gotten ATI since they haven't asked for it since open skies went into effect. Why do you think AA ands BA haven't asked? Makes
30 Commavia : Absolutely. The fact that we now have six airlines getting complete immunity from the government across the Atlantic, and yet these two airlines stil
31 Ocracoke : Not this again. KL and NW are no where near to being the first to creating a world wide alliance. There were/are many, many other alliances that were
32 Bobnwa : Those alliances you mention did not have ATI and did not split revenues and costs.
33 Ocracoke : That's not the point. The point being that NW/KL is/was/never will be the first alliance. No one said anything of ATI and/or splitting revenues and c
34 WorldTraveler : Yes, and transatlantic is the only portion of their network where they significantly overlap. DL and NW have very little domestic overlap and virtual
35 Viscount724 : But new carriers wanting to add service to those airports don't have to pay tens of millions of $$ for slots. BA still has a big advantage at LHR due
36 StarAlliance38 : I'm sorry, but I agree. I love NW/KL, but, even though they invented the alliance, Star mastered the concept of the alliance with common IT Plats., S
37 ConcordeBoy : ....you forgot "horrid-looking special livery than any 3yr-old could've created"
38 Post contains links Commavia : An interesting read today in The Dallas Morning News' (excellent, by the way) airline industry blog. Excerpt: The transatlantic market share of the 4
39 Cubsrule : This is spot-on, I think. The key question is how much Open Skies changes the game. I would argue (as, I think, would you) that the ability of Americ
40 NW748i : Perhaps we should be more specific and use the term "joint venture." I'd agree. Star seemed to get off to a much better start than Skyteam with respe
41 MAH4546 : Good points, but it doesn't mention that ATI for AA/BA/AY will likely also include IB, RJ, and MA.
42 Commavia : I personally think that is actually quite a question mark. All of the aforementioned points and obvious unfairness aside, It is already going to be a
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Future Of DL/AF - Should AZ Be A Part? posted Sun Apr 30 2000 17:30:14 by Euroschu
DL-NW Merger Like AF-KL: What It Might Look Like posted Mon Mar 31 2008 20:23:16 by DL767captain
AF/KL Plan For AZ: Not Much Change posted Fri Mar 28 2008 03:54:06 by BlueFlyer
AF/KL/DL/(NW) Disadvantage In Asia/Pacific posted Mon Feb 18 2008 12:34:45 by GayStudPilot
CO, NW, KL Or DL, AF posted Tue Apr 15 2003 11:55:34 by Mas777
NW/AF/KL 1 Trip 2 Itineraries? posted Thu Nov 29 2007 16:33:29 by Dtwclipper
AF-KL Pushing For A320/737 Replacement posted Mon Oct 29 2007 02:19:10 by Scbriml
Would The EU Allow AF+KL+IB+AZ? posted Tue Oct 9 2007 06:19:25 by Incitatus
AF-KL Could Take Up To 39% Of AZ posted Mon Aug 20 2007 10:27:30 by Skyteam10001
CO/DL European Expansion Hurting AF/KL? posted Tue Jun 12 2007 22:28:06 by KL911
AF/KL Plan For AZ: Not Much Change posted Fri Mar 28 2008 03:54:06 by BlueFlyer
AF/KL/DL/(NW) Disadvantage In Asia/Pacific posted Mon Feb 18 2008 12:34:45 by GayStudPilot
CO, NW, KL Or DL, AF posted Tue Apr 15 2003 11:55:34 by Mas777
NW/AF/KL 1 Trip 2 Itineraries? posted Thu Nov 29 2007 16:33:29 by Dtwclipper
AF-KL Pushing For A320/737 Replacement posted Mon Oct 29 2007 02:19:10 by Scbriml
Would The EU Allow AF+KL+IB+AZ? posted Tue Oct 9 2007 06:19:25 by Incitatus
AF-KL Could Take Up To 39% Of AZ posted Mon Aug 20 2007 10:27:30 by Skyteam10001
CO/DL European Expansion Hurting AF/KL? posted Tue Jun 12 2007 22:28:06 by KL911