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NRT Airport Has Got To Be The Worst In Delays  
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Forgive me if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything.

On Wednesday the 9h, I was on SQ12 SIN-NRT-LAX. We circled NRT for about 45 minutes because of weather delays because it was pouring and the winds were out of this world. Needless to say, we arrived at the gate an hour late for the short stop-over before heading out to LAX. We pushed back and it took us 57 minutes before the engines revved up and we were screaming down the runway. AT one point, we were sitting still for a good 25 minutes on the taxiway. I think NRT only has two runways and only one is used by heavies since the other one has a guy's farm in the middle who wouldn't sell.

Is this really viable for such a large airport? hey were using one runway for take off and landing and since it was in the evening, it was pretty busy. Another thing I noticed while we were taxiing was incoming airplanes were touching down halfway down the runway where departing airplanes would rotate at. Any explanation to that? I felt bad for the folks on SQ11 heading to SIN because when we were taking off, they were number 14 for take off and I bet you it took them longer to get to the end of the runway than it took us. This was my 4th time in NRT and it happens every time, even when the weather is good. What happens if for some reason they have to close the main runway? Any chance of another runway at NRT?


If you're going through hell, keep going
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4521 times:



Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):
NRT Airport Has Got To Be The Worst In Delay

I think any regular through NYC area or ORD during bad weather would disagree with you.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4511 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 1):
I think any regular through NYC area or ORD during bad weather would disagree with you.



Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):
This was my 4th time in NRT and it happens every time, even when the weather is good.

I know some airports are awful in bad weather too (DEN, ORD, EWR to mention a few) but like I said, there are all kinds of delays in NRT even in good weather. One time we taxiied for 35 minutes on JAL from SFO to some remote area. I thought for a minute they decided to 'plane' us to downtown Tokyo. The thing about one runway for heavies boggles my mind for such a large and busy airport.



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineJM079 From Canada, joined Jan 2008, 2285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

I read your posting and I was some what stunned by your revalation that some Japanese guy refuse to sell his land so the airport can expand but to my amazement after going on google and do an aerial view there is this bizzard situation at NRT. This is truely interesting as the runway has expanded but it is his property that is still there. But I do see three runways....

http://maps.google.ca/maps?source=ig...+airport&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4512 times:



Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):

Well then you should have taken the non-stop flight.
Weather was terrible in the Tokyo region Wednesday. It was worse at the other Tokyo airport Haneda where there were a ton of cancellations. Not too many at NRT though.

Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):
Is this really viable for such a large airport?

Viable or not that's the current situation. Travel in the Tokyo region will improve immensely in two years when both airports are expanded.
When they added all those flights and the second runway a few years ago, it wasn't too unusual to be in 10th or so in line for take-off but ATC is becoming more efficient. It's just the weather delays and everything plus spacing aircraft a little out caused the line to pile up.
By the way, it's not that unusual to be 20th or so in line at ORD, LGA, or EWR.


User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
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NRT seems particularly bad, especially for an airport which is 60 minutes by 'express' train from the city center, or two hours by bus. The whole point of having airport that far out would seem to be defeated with what really amounts to one runway. Though we did takeoff in our CX A330 on that shorter runway a couple of weeks ago. That was fun!


Keep on truckin'...
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7556 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

Well, Norcal773 I can agree with you to a point, but I would have to say that ORD and LHR are probably the worst. I have the same amount of love for ORD that you have for LAX which needless to say is none. To me everything about ORD sucks. The airport itself, the weather delays, the Blue line of the CTA to the loop which travels at about 15 mph and stops frequently because its so run down, etc. Going to ORD is comparable to a prostate exam for me.

NRT isnt a bad airport, I travel there about 4 times a year and about every 3 times I run into trouble. My personal favorite was when I got bumped from my nonstop flight from NRT to LAX onto a NRT-DFW-LAX routing because the Narita express from Shinjuku broke down. Other than that there isnt much to write home about NRT for me.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
By the way, it's not that unusual to be 20th or so in line at ORD, LGA, or EWR.

20th on a 'take off runway' only, not one that is being used for takeoff and landing. Being 14th in line is almost as being 28th because there's a landing in between every takeoff.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
but I would have to say that ORD and LHR are probably the worst

My two worst are LHR, EWR and now NRT.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 6):
I have the same amount of love for ORD that you have for LAX which needless to say is none.

You're right about that, I'll fly to Fresno Airport before I fly to Jacobin777's favorite Airport, LAX.   

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
Well then you should have taken the non-stop flight.

That's not the point. I actually had the option but I am not a big fan of being in a tube for 17 hours, regardless the class of travel.

I might actually end up living in Tokyo for a few years in the near future and the thought of all these delays everytime I fly in isn't too comforting but ooh well, it could be worse, I could end up in LA.  duck 

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 4):
Travel in the Tokyo region will improve immensely in two years when both airports are expanded.

How will that happen if there's no land to expand near NRT, if remember correctly but then again I could be wrong.

[Edited 2008-04-10 16:47:02]


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4443 times:



Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 5):
The whole point of having airport that far out would seem to be defeated with what really amounts to one runway.

Yep. The point of building a remote airport is that you have room to expand. But NRT didn't get it's ducks in a row. Now it's actually Haneda who has room to expand, and with the ability to build airports in the water, NRT could be made mostly redundant if Japan so chose.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4415 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
But NRT didn't get it's ducks in a row. Now it's actually Haneda who has room to expand, and with the ability to build airports in the water,

Does that mean there's a big possibility of Haneda being the 'Main' Tokyo-area airport in the future?



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4409 times:



Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):
other one has a guy's farm in the middle who wouldn't sell.

Afaik, there are plans for the abandoned crosswind runway to become operational again. It's not too far off since there's only one farm left. There was quite a significant bit of tarmac work when I was there in Feb. The farm on the 2180m runway has been preventing the extension to 2500m and it won't happen any time soon.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25125 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4395 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Now it's actually Haneda who has room to expand, and with the ability to build airports in the water, NRT could be made mostly redundant if Japan so chose.

HND is scheduled to open a new 4th runway in 2010 which wsill permit more international flights to use HND. HND is still the busiest airport in Asia, and the 4th busiest in the world in passenger traffic, after ATL, ORD, LHR. Total passenger traffic just slightly less than LHR. HND handles almost twice NRT's traffic.
http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=17404


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4363 times:



Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
Does that mean there's a big possibility of Haneda being the 'Main' Tokyo-area airport in the future?

I'm no Sinofile and I don't know the ins and outs, but I assume, no. Why? Because once a government makes a decision, going back on that decision would tell everyone they were wrong. And governments are never wrong. Ever.

But it would seem to me, as a layman here in the USA who's only visited Japan once, that NRT is a pain in the buttocks. It is hard to get to, has almost no domestic connections for international flights, etc. It's the O&D airport that is too far from the O&D. It would never pass private investment muster. Luckily, it was a Japan Inc. project instead...

Haneda, on the other hand, is convenient for the city itself, but despite it's ability to take the largest of the large planes of the world, and it's over water approach (and alternate over industrial areas) that doesn't bother any NIMBYs worth considering, it is supposed to be a domestic/regional airport.

Now, back in the 70s/80s, building entire islands in bays/harbors for airports wasn't as "easy" as it is today. But these days, it's the plan many countries are turning to, including Japan. And a lot has been learned since Kansai, such as how to make sure things don't sink. You can add 3 new runways to HND (making 2 sets of 3 in two orientations) and also add 2 brand new terminals to the SE.

Haneda could be built out to handle all the international traffic to Tokyo and most of the local at this point, leaving NRT as a regional facility and secondary international for "hard luck" airlines, kind of like LGW will end up. Oh, and it could handle diversions of any kind.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4353 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
HND is scheduled to open a new 4th runway in 2010 which wsill permit more international flights to use HND. HND is still the busiest airport in Asia, and the 4th busiest in the world in passenger traffic, after ATL, ORD, LHR. Total passenger traffic just slightly less than LHR. HND handles almost twice NRT's traffic.

 checkmark 

But absolutely useless if you're flying to/from the USA.  Sad

The 4th runway is to expand traffic to China, Korea, and domestic flights. All other regions will still que up at NRT.  cry 

I wonder when ICN will clearly pass by NRT. Once they build the 'bonded train' to the inner airport, ICN will become a very nicely located hub for US to India traffic (West Coast Only).

NRT should be the 'obvious' asian hub. But the only way for that to happen is a dramatic expansion.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4261 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4336 times:



Quoting Norcal773 (Thread starter):
Another thing I noticed while we were taxiing was incoming airplanes were touching down halfway down the runway where departing airplanes would rotate at. Any explanation to that?

Yes, very simple one. Runway 34L (Which is the runway it sounds like you were using), is 13,123 feet long, but due to a displaced threshold, the actual landing distance available is 10,633 feet. Now assuming the planes are on an ILS approach, the distance beyond the glideslope is only 9534 feet. Thats almost four thousand feet from the start of the departure portion of the runway. Add about another 1000 feet for a flare in case there is an overflare (it happens), and you get to the portion of the runway where departing airplanes are rotating for takeoff, which may only be 2000 feet past the threshold, but a good mile from the start of the runway.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4316 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
Add about another 1000 feet for a flare in case there is an overflare (it happens), and you get to the portion of the runway where departing airplanes are rotating for takeoff, which may only be 2000 feet past the threshold, but a good mile from the start of the runway.

But still, 8000 feet is still plenty of room to land. It's the value of a 2.5 mile long runway.  Smile



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5854 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4261 times:



Quoting Nicholaschee (Reply 10):
The farm on the 2180m runway has been preventing the extension to 2500m and it won't happen any time soon.

I think you'll find that they are going to be extending the 16 end of the short runway so as to avoid the farm...

never had a single problem with NRT or delays...actually, its very efficient and that's just how the Japanese like it.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1865 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
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ORD has to be by far the worst. One an almost daily basis our Comair flights take at least a 2-3 hr hit due ground stop to O'Hare.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4120 times:

The train trip to central Tokyo will be reduced slightly with a higher speed line set to open in 2010. The riding time will be reduced slightly to 36 minutes, down from the current 60 minutes.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
You can add 3 new runways to HND (making 2 sets of 3 in two orientations) and also add 2 brand new terminals to the SE.

Good idea but you have to remember Tokyo Bay has a lot of shipping/sea traffic and making room for more runways is probably not possible. If I had to bet, there won't be anymore runways built at HND.
With basically two set of parallel runways, operations can be doubled to current standards and more flights added during the nightime hours too.


User currently offlineChiawei From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 944 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4073 times:

Sorry. I am a pretty decent road warriors to Asia.

All i can tell you NRT is nowhere as bad as JFK. One bad experience does not mean it is worst.

Everytime I fly into JFK, I am always sitting on Tarmac forever regardless of weather.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4036 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 18):
Good idea but you have to remember Tokyo Bay has a lot of shipping/sea traffic and making room for more runways is probably not possible. If I had to bet, there won't be anymore runways built at HND.

Tokyo Bay is BIG. Runways are small, relatively. I studied the satellite map extensively when determining that 3 more runways can be added.

Now in practice, they'd do fine with adding only 2 (including the one they are adding now). The other requirement is to add a satellite terminal in line with the main terminals, connected via a skytrain system. The road really shouldn't be extended to the southeast and would be complicated with the tunnel and all. But a satellite for international (long distance) flights to supplant NRT would not be difficult to achieve. A 70 gate (25-10-25-10 per side rectangle) facility would fit rather well at the southeast end.

Anyway, it aint gonna happen, but it's always fun to centrally plan the world.  Smile



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineSingaporeBoy From Singapore, joined May 2005, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

You should try JFK on a clear beautiful evening....number 14 is nothing...we were number 50something for takeoff.We sat on the taxiway for over 2hours..and the pilot even shutdown the engines.And how many runways does JFK have compared to Narita?

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3900 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):

I understand where you are coming from; it would be interesting if such a grand scheme is developed.
The local fisheries would all have a heart attack. It was bad enough with just the fourth runway.

There are port facilities located north of HND and the seaway to the east of HND is a vital link to it.
You can't build much southward of HND because of the run off from Tama-river. That's the reason the extreme western end of the new runway is built on steel platforms so the river flow isn't impeded.


User currently offlineCYasutomo From Japan, joined Feb 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

OMG, you think NRT is bad??? Have you ever used LHR? Total nightmare. And NRT is nowhere near as bad as ORD or JFK for delays. In fact, I will take NRT over just about any US airport. The only problem I have ever had with NRT is its inconvenient location (too far from Tokyo). Otherwise, almost all my flights in and out of NRT over the 12 years I've lived in Japan have been on time.

User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3745 times:



Quoting JM079 (Reply 3):
But I do see three runways....

I think the third runway that you are seeing is not a runway, its a taxi-way. I think S-txwy? I think it was intended to be a runway, but because of all the NIMBY's, it never became a rwy. 34R/16L, 14L/16R are the only two runways. Its terrible in a crosswind.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 18):
The train trip to central Tokyo will be reduced slightly with a higher speed line set to open in 2010. The riding time will be reduced slightly to 36 minutes, down from the current 60 minutes.

Yes, but I read on a poster that that is to Nippori station. I mean who wants to get to Nippori? I think people want to get to Shinagawa, Shinjuku, Yokohama, etc in less than 30 minutes. I mean the plane ride and the approach itself is already a headache.

And I think the reason of making an airport in such a remote area is so that you can expand all you want. The first plas of NRT were to have 3 rwys and tons of room for expansion. 35 years later, there is only 1 really useful runway, and the most painful taxiways in the world.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
25 Norcal773 : Like I said, this was my 4th time and it's always a nightmare. I haven't encountered such delays in ORD or JFK personally even though I've been to th
26 Ikramerica : That's a good point. I guess another option is to use up some of the space already there for new terminals (there is a lot of gateless space accordin
27 Spacecadet : HND already is and has always been the "main" Tokyo airport. If you mean the main *international* Tokyo airport, that's a different question. But HND
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