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Bankruptcy: Frontier Files For Chapter 11  
User currently offlineF9Mechanic From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27735 times:

We here in the line mx department just learned that we have filed chapter 11. We were told that it was to protect assets, and one of our creditors called for us to pay our line of credit. We were also told that we will make it in the long run, but we are worried.

253 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27719 times:

This surprised me, to an extent. I have no doubt F9 will make it out of Ch. 11 eventually, and I hope they do.

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 7399 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27718 times:

Quoting F9Mechanic (Thread starter):
and one of our creditors called for us to pay our line of credit.

Well then BK was the way to go. I don't have a crystal ball, but Frontier is not in the same boat as ATA/Aloha/Skybus. They should make it through just like NW, UA, US, US again, and DL.


Make it a double
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 7056 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27638 times:


Posted on thier website, best of luck to everyone at Frontier... Smile

I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 10858 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27606 times:

I hope all ends up well for all F9 employees.

Hope this doesn't turn into a "when will F9 fail" thread too

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27614 posts, RR: 81
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27617 times:

From my perspective, it became inevitable, probably about Monday. As I said in the other thread:


mariner: "The downward pressure on FRNT stock - as opposed to Frontier the airline - is so intensely negative that it may become a self-fulfilling prophesy."

The Ray Neidl analysis was one thing, but then Fox got hold of it, and, given the events of last week, it spooked everyone.

In these difficult times, it was the most sensible thing for Frontier to do.


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 7399 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27441 times:

It will be interesting to see if additional dominoes start to fall. Who else will receive a call from a creditor?

I am happy that Frontier would appear to be in a fairly decent position now. Will they last? Pass the crystal ball.


Make it a double
User currently offlineNational757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 733 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27226 times:

The key to successfully emerging from this BK filing is "damage control" IMO. Now potential travelers looking to book travel in the next 3-6 months might not book F9 because they will automatically associate this event with the closing of SX, TZ, and AQ.

This BK filing has the potential to snowball in that customers and vendors may lose confidence in the company. For the employees sake, I hope F9 pulls through.

[Edited 2008-04-10 23:39:21]

User currently offlineIRelayer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1105 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27196 times:

Holy crap! Horrible news. Airlines are dropping like flies.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3607 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27170 times:

If this does crash the stock, It would be the time for WN to buy them out if they are going to.

Going to get interesting.....

User currently offlinePExDCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27166 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
In these difficult times, it was the most sensible thing for Frontier to do.

I agree. The best strategy is to position yourself to be successful in the long term, not just today.

"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27169 times:

Quoting F9Mechanic (Thread starter):
We were also told that we will make it in the long run, but we are worried.

I hope so, Adam. I really hope so for you and everybody at Frontier.

Take care.

Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 29009 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 27151 times:

Have fun battling the CC companies on the hold back.

I know recently hold backs for many carriers have edged up with some not receiving various percentage of charged revenues until up to 3 days after a passenger completes their trip. The recent spate of failures and losses being absorbed by the CC obviously have them spooked leading to tightening things up even further on those carriers which seem more vulnerable in their eyes.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 7056 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27117 times:

SO reading the press release it sounds like F9 is encountering a cash flow problem due to its Credit Card Processor wanting to hold back a higher percentage of pending transactions instead of depositing them into F9s account. If Frontier can get a judge to impose the original terms on the CC Company them they should be able to emerge relatively quickly. It doesn't even look like they have DIP financing which can be a good sign or a bad one.

Guess we will see what happens in the next few weeks.

I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2051 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27101 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
In these difficult times, it was the most sensible thing for Frontier to do.

Agreed. Let's hope that they have the elements they need to survive the bankruptcy process. The biggest hurdle seems to be that this time, the banks are less willing to lend DIP financing, owing to their own problems.

Unfortunately, Frontier will not be the last one to file for Chapter 11...

Let's hope, however, for the employees of Frontier and the city of Denver, that Frontier survives. That is my sincere wish.


David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27614 posts, RR: 81
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27105 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
The recent spate of failures and losses being absorbed by the CC obviously have them spooked

I have trouble finding too much sympathy for CCP's and this move may spook 'em even more.


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIowaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27115 times:

Wow, a certain airline in DAL must be very happy.

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 27614 posts, RR: 81
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27083 times:

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 16):
Wow, a certain airline in DAL must be very happy.

Why? I would think that "certain airline" would less happy, if anything. If they care at all.  confused 


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMiami1 From Australia, joined Feb 2001, 707 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27051 times:

This is really bad news ! im really angry with the press who print doom and gloom before anybody has any idea or contemplation of things evan happening its almost like bad situations just get thought up and it creates an air of fear so companies that get bad press like Frontier do end up filing for chapter 11, grrrrrrr !!.

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5595 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 27031 times:

I about fell out of my chair when I read this.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
From my perspective, it became inevitable, probably about Monday. As I said in the other thread:

I am with you on that. This is now a good chance to emerge better. If anything, this could be a blessing in disguise.

To all of my buddies at Frontier.... Keep your heads up high, and do not stop what you do best. Take good care of your customers, and keep being a "Whole Different Animal". Frontier will come out of this, and you all that work for Frontier are the ticket to success.

I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineDragonflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26993 times:

Why, exactly, must they file bankruptcy in the middle of the night? Something is not passing the smell test here...good luck to all the employees at F9...hope you guys get through...

We earn our wings every day...Comments/opinions are my own and do not reflect my employer.
User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2457 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26924 times:

Quoting Dragonflyer (Reply 20):
I'm no financial expert like Mariner... but I'd imagine they did it late at night because the increased credit card processor "holdbacks" were due to start tomorrow, 4/11.  So by doing it tonight it essentially freezes the contract that's in place with the processor now....

Best of luck to everyone at Frontier. I flew them last year for the first time and it was a great experience....

[Edited 2008-04-11 00:01:34]

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1429 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26923 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 19):
To all of my buddies at Frontier.... Keep your heads up high, and do not stop what you do best. Take good care of your customers, and keep being a "Whole Different Animal". Frontier will come out of this, and you all that work for Frontier are the ticket to success.

Very well said!

To my sister Kelly ( A very proud F9 Flight Attendant), and her colleagues, hang in there! I have all the confidence that you will get through this and emerge stronger and better than ever.


HA J Class Lie flats, coming soon to a plane near you........
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 22161 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26893 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 13):
If Frontier can get a judge to impose the original terms on the CC Company them they should be able to emerge relatively quickly. It doesn't even look like they have DIP financing which can be a good sign or a bad one.

From how I understand it, they had to enter CH11 ASAP so that the CC Company could not change the terms of their deal.

After reading up on "hold backs" and how they work, the CC Processor is within their right to change the terms if they see a fundamental change in the business they are working with. It's within the contract F9 has with them. They must be worried about F9's losses and that the mantra for ATA and AQ passengers has been "contact your credit card company" which is plastered all over the web as advice. I'm sure the credit card companies are pissed they are being put in the middle, and the processors even more so (charge backs are expensive), and so are now increasing hold back on all "shaky" carriers to protect themselves. And from how I understand it, the processor could basically hold all F9s credit card transactions for a long period of time as security.

But by filing CH11, that freezes all contracts and terms as is for a set amount of time (60 days?). At least that's how I understand it. Then the BK judge can sort through it. But it means everything holds as is, the CC processor can't increase the hold back, and F9 stays liquid. Probably.

Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2051 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26869 times:

Quoting Miami1 (Reply 18):
This is really bad news ! im really angry with the press who print doom and gloom before anybody has any idea or contemplation of things evan happening its almost like bad situations just get thought up and it creates an air of fear so companies that get bad press like Frontier do end up filing for chapter 11, grrrrrrr !!.

I'm not completely certain that the press (A) and their tendency to stir the s--t, cause the banks (B) to call in their loans which forces Frontier and carriers like it (C) to file for Chapter 11. A causes B causes C...

The air of fear already existed before Aloha filed for Chapter 11. Unfortunately, there were a number of other airlines in a similar situation, given the precipitous increase in the cost of jet fuel and an economic downturn, that ended up being cash short. I think the dominos just started falling. Any airline that is cash short or in a poor liquidity situation will end up in bankruptcy court before the end of the year. The economy is not going to improve before 2009 and the continued increases in the price of jet fuel that will occur (I don't see it improving before 2009 either) will force even a couple of the majors back into bankruptcy protection.

We just have to sit back and strap ourselves in...it's going to be a very bumpy ride for everyone for the balance of 2008.


David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
25 F9Animal : This has been in the works. Yeah, I agree the timing is odd, but it will be business as usual. Bankruptcy is scary, and I have faced it with a few ai
26 FiveMileFinal : I wonder at what point this rampant fear that has spread across the airline industry will ever be contained. If F9 feels like they need to seek protec
27 Ikramerica : Sometimes conditions change so fast that if you don't act, you will be permanently damaged. This seems to be the case here. They had to "outsmart" th
28 Tozairport : Whole different animal there. UA, in spite of it's completely inept senior management, is doing OK. Thank god we have an oil man in office or this wh
29 ScottB : Well, count me as one who did not see this coming at this point in time. I do understand why they went ahead and did it -- losing timely access to cas
30 ADent : But they might drop soon. They need the public to buy the we are bankrupt, but nothing to worry about line - when 3 airlines shut down overnight and
31 Mattnrsa : But that shows why UA and other legacies are in a better position than the LCCs. UA has the flexibility to pull down unprofitable domestic flying whi
32 Sydscott : I don't know about that. If the Court is interested in maximising the value of the Company for ALL creditors that it can hardly favour the CC Company
33 Flighty : HOLY Sh** It will be interesting to see who buys them.
34 Mariner : United doesn't think so, at least at DEN. As reported in the Rocky Mountain News (the link is in the other thread), after Southwest had been at DEN a
35 JayDub : Keep your heads up over there F9 folks...you have a damn fine product, a fairly decent management team, and I think you guys will be alright if you ju
36 Mariner : If anyone does, they will have to pay nearly four times what they would have paid yesterday. mariner[Edited 2008-04-11 00:51:20]
37 F9Animal : I would like to take a moment to reflect on Frontier and what it is. Frontier is very special in so many ways. I can't explain it. The working there i
38 Mattnrsa : Exactly. That's because domestic flying, in general, has become much less profitable. United has moved its resources away from domestic flying to a c
39 SkyguyB727 : The timing does seem odd. Braniff International filed in the middle of the night, too.
40 Burkhard : My best wishes to Frontier and its stuff! We need the whole different animal!
41 Post contains links Mariner : And they are still not anticipated to make money this year. According to a consensus of analysts, it does translate to an overall loss for this year,
42 MSYtristar : Best of luck to all my friends at F9 in DEN and at other cities around the country during these uncertain times.
43 Nosedive : Mesa may drop, ExpressJet may drop, etc. If anything, the question of "who's next?" and calling for payment illustrates how little trust is being pla
44 UAL777UK : I am shocked by this news, whilst a loyal UA flyer, I hope Frontier pull a around.
45 BlueShamu330s : A very sensible, strategic and expedient move by F9. The aviation world suddenly seems very sub-prime. Looking from the other side of the atlantic, th
46 United1 : That's true Mariner but what I think Mattnrsa is trying to say is that if UA at DEN has a bad year and looses money ORD could still have a great year
47 Columba : All the best to you and your fellow employees !! I always wanted to fly F9 since I always thought this is airline as well as B6 are different from th
48 DIA77 : I wish the best for Frontier and their employees. I will continue to be a loyal customer and I hope they pull out of this....
49 Norcal773 : Best of luck to their employees. I've always liked F and I am sure and hope that they pull through.
50 LTBEWR : Hopefully this won't destroy F9, but who knows in the long run. Clearly the credit card companies, who have lost many millions many times before by ai
51 Par13del : Random thoughts here in no particular order. 1. The Stock Market - Wall St. - is not the end all that it is made out to be. Yes you may get cheap capi
52 Spencerii : I wish my Brothers & sisters at F9 all the best, and to the market expansion team, "hang in there". I
53 Post contains links Jawake : Sorry to hear this, I hope this works out for F9 Employees.... I have a question, in the CNN article http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/04/11/us.frontier.
54 Petteri : As a F9 employee, thanks for all the kind words. This is my first job witin the industry so the experiences, both bad and good, have all been new to m
55 Hiflyer : While I am sure that the action planned by a credit card processor would hurt F9's bottom line I am surprised this carrier was on such a knife edge al
56 Mariner : I understand exactly that, but a loss is a loss. Since there is to be an overall loss, ORD may not be off-setting DEN. There may be losses at each. B
57 ImperialEagle : On this mornings "Today" show NBC's Lester Dolt gave quick mention to the situation and said a re-organization is underway. Inasmuch as he made no att
58 NWAESC : Both DL & NW have been out of bankruptcy protection for some time now.
59 Knope2001 : The credit card holdbacks have an immediate and severe effect on cash, and adequate cash is absolutely essential to keeping day-to-day operations goi
60 MSYtristar : From the Bloomberg article, Sean Menke said the following: "''Fortunately, we believe that we currently have adequate cash on hand to meet our operati
61 WorldTraveler : Not having DIP is not a good sign. There is no assurance they will be able to obtain either given the tight credit market and weak airline industry.
62 Mariner : No one is suggesting that you can. However, given the sudden and unexpected change of rules - change of the contract - by the CCP, which would have s
63 Davidlc3 : It may actually be easier in the middle of the night...during the filing process many things can happen if there is someone lurking in the shadows wi
64 Post contains links Miller22 : Awe crap. I love this airline. This is going to be a blow to Denver if they can't make it after this. I'm curious as to what the Southwest employees t
65 WorldTraveler : DL had to put up about $1B more cash - that's where the GE money came from. As I said, you can delay some elements of the contract but you cannot for
66 Lowecur : Like I said on the previous thread, it pays to do this early rather than late if they want to reorganize. They will have little luck in getting anyone
67 Cberflyer : All I can say is... wow... I just about fell out of my chair seeing the blurb on The Washington Post's web page first thing this morning, lumped in w
68 RFields5421 : Though no one knows how this will turn out in the long run - the chances of Frontier shutting down have decreased with this filing. It's no longer a d
69 Burkhard : Which wouldn't be a good way to do, since Frintier management has the reputation to be one of the better ones.
70 Hiflyer : I hate to see dates for shutdown already being proposed before all the employees have had a chance to read and understand the situation.... However it
71 Bahadir : Once again, I had a really nice experience with them last Tuesday flying DEN-STL. In my previous F9 flights the experience was the same. On the other
72 NZblue : I have been a Frontier Airlines enthusiast ever since working at Air New Zealand at LAX, watching from my desk window which faced the North Complex al
73 DaCubbyBearBar : To all the employees of F9, keep your heads up!! When I went through a BK at AWA back a long time ago, the first one, I learned one huge thing from it
74 Mcdu : Talking to WN about what? Assuming the leases on the gates at DIA? Unfortunately F9 does not have a tremendous amount of assets. This is the problem
75 Lowecur : Like I said, it will be a one way conversation. No, those will go to B6. You seem to be gloating that the LCC's are taking a fall before the Legacy's
76 BOAC911 : Absolutely. Chapter 11 rules have changed significantly since the UA filing. Time to re-organize or re-finance is no longer infinite.
77 Rampart : The Press? I think the Press are feeding of the knee-jerk hysterics that is the Stock Market these days, which revolves around the circling vultures
78 APFPilot1985 : Why should congress? The credit card companies are businesses too, and have responsibilites to their shareholders. It is well within their rights to
79 DIA : I can see this. Makes sense to me. Yesterday morning I just bought F9 tickets for this summer...I'm not worried.
80 Hiflyer : Huh? B6 is selling aircraft....what makes you think that they would want an new fleet type (319) with different motors (cfm vs pratt)? Based on what.
81 TheGreatChecko : I'm right there with ya! Even though I fly the cute baby animals, I feel the same way. I'm just not looking forward to the crew room tomorrow, at lea
82 Lowecur : B6 is not interested in F9, but I think they would be interested in those gates if they go 7. DIA would be a nice fit for a midpoint hub. Speculation
83 Lightsaber : Well said. I wish F9 and all their employees well. I think the animals will keep flying for a long time. That is the scary part. Its no longer possib
84 Sxf24 : After a temporary reprieve, F9 will either have to convince its CCP to reduce hold backs, which are most certainly within the CCP's existing contractu
85 RedFlyer : They filed in the middle of the night probably because they wanted to catch the creditor off-guard. I suspect no one, the creditor included, thought
86 ChicagoFlyer : I extend all sympathy to Frontier employees. As far as I can tell, this may be the biggest operator with truly a family feeling among the employees. A
87 Etops1 : sorry to say but frontier is number 3 behind ua and wn in den . i think they are deadmeat. lets pray for a miracle. this is how it's starts boys and g
88 Ual-Fan : If this were to happen two years, even a year ago I wouldn't give it a second thought but I am hearing that finding the financing they will need to ge
89 Isitsafenow : I like to look at financials and on Yahoo Finance at the bottom they(yahoo) list Bullish and Bearish for the day. One of todays Bullish is Frontier Ho
90 Steeler83 : I hope they can regroup and remain in the air. Eventhough I didn't see it coming, It should come as no surprise considering they're slow growth and m
91 Socalfive : Didn't see it coming? This is just another domino to fall and we're far from the end of this cycle.
92 ATCtower : I have always hoped F9 would keep themselves out of this sort of trouble, and will wish them only the best. That said, this comes as no real surprise
93 Newark777 : I certainly wouldn't say that the airline industry is in a "lull." If this is a lull, I wouldn't want to see a downturn.
94 87Grounded : I just bought tickets for my family to fly DEN-PDX next month. I hope I'm not screwed.
95 Isitsafenow : If you used a credit card, you should be ok IF they shut down. If they fly, you're even better. safe.
96 Ken777 : They probably files as soon as the lawyers finished preparing the documents. If the docs had been completed at 5 PM then the filing would have been a
97 Treebeard787 : What sad news! I just flew F9 last March and had great flights with them, I hope they can come out of this okay.
98 RFields5421 : Frontier was notified that the credit card processor would increase the holdback effective Friday, April 11 - so they had to get their bankruptcy fil
99 Nosedive : In terms of what? Narrowbody flights tom/from DEN that are not on a 737? F9 is number 2 in terms of movements and pax, bud. How what starts? How reor
100 Burnsie28 : Even something like that would not cause a company to file by itself. The key is to try and find someone to finance their BK, good luck with that now
101 LAXintl : What are you talking about? Have you considered the CC companies have shareholders and business to run also? They are not 'making things hard' for ai
102 RJ777 : I have yet to fly F9, but I would like to get the chance! From what I've heard from my parents, they really enjoy them going out of OMA!
103 Cubsrule : This is one of the most astute observations in this thread. We can argue about what bankruptcy SHOULD be, but there's no question that bankruptcy IS
104 Post contains links LAXintl : Here are some facts of the events that caused F9 to seek the Ch11 filing. In the mean time the airline is exploring ways to raise capital (no easy tas
105 AirFrnt : True enough, most of the time this comes out as negotiation, but the court also has lee-way to impose temporary contracts where needed. No, but their
106 Sxf24 : CCP's are more concerned about having less protection from customers that are more likely to go out of business, thus stranding them with hundreds of
107 Enilria : My thoughts are this. I said they were better off filing now than later a few days ago and that is still true. I think that the main problem they hav
108 United1 : NW did not have DIP financing. No one said there wasn't going to be a loss at ORD I think what your missing is that we are speaking about how the air
109 Sxf24 : NW had a DIP financing commitment from Citigroup.[Edited 2008-04-11 09:28:53]
110 LMP737 : Hopefully you guys will pull through. Other airlines have and F9 shouldn't be any different.
111 Post contains links United1 : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../2005/09/14/AR2005091400848_3.html They may have had an agreement with citigroup for a loan if they ever neede
112 Mcdu : Oh the infamous mid-continent hub for B6. Let's see they could not make LGB work as that has been reduced dramatically. B6 is selling airplanes and v
113 Sxf24 : I believe they had the commitment before entering, or at least shortly thereafter. They did not use it, since NW never really had a cash flow or liqu
114 LAXintl : B6 reductions at LGB? Every slot they have is utilized, and has been so for a few years.
115 Cloudy : Once a company files for bankruptcy, the price of the stock becomes largely irrelevant for someone who wants to acquire the company. This is because
116 Surfrider1978 : Mariner. I believe you flamed me for forecasting this last week. I do hope F9 will pull through this and become stabile once again. It will be a sad d
117 Post contains links RedFlyer : B6 and F9 would be a good fit not because it would allow expansion but, rather, because it will allow consolidation. In tough economic times, consoli
118 GMUAirbusA320 : I wish all the best to the employees of F9. It's a ROUGH process, although I REALLY hope you don't end up like I did at DH! I think your product is mu
119 Par13del : I have seen this mentioned in a few threads, and I have seen Mariners figures debunking this, Frontier's loads have actually gone up since WN entered
120 Boeing727flyer : Sad news - I love Frontier and I know they will make it out of Chapter 11. Good luck guys
121 Ikramerica : But did they have to lower prices to get there, thus hurting their bottom line? Load factors aren't everything. They are only part of the revenue equ
122 Cloudy : Loads tend to go up with competition since fares are forced down. How has Frontier's RASM changed since Southwest entered? That is the more relevant
123 TheCheese : Watching the late local news on channel 6 here in PDX last night, they did a short spot on Frontier entering Chapter 11. Accompanying this was footage
124 Post contains links Mariner : Certainly, I disagreed with you. I'm sorry if you think I "flamed" you but without the CCP action, I don't believe this would have happened. It took
125 Tockeyhockey : F9 is a fine airline, but it strikes me as one of the "problems" with the industry as it is constituted right now. there is over-capacity of seats nat
126 A380US : It doesnt really ssuprise me but i am sure they will come out soon
127 ExFATboy : Why would B6 want to go into a post-Frontier DEN, up against both a legacy hub and Southwest, but without the "hometown airline" support Frontier has
128 Surfrider1978 : No worries. I personally did not think it would be this quick myself. I did validate alot of your points and you deffinately know your stuff.
129 Allstarflyer : I thought B6 was looking to possibly be in a crunch itself this year. Maybe there's a marriage between the two down the road? Just a random thought t
130 Mariner : Perverse as ever, it is actually a considerable relief to me. It gives Sean Menke the one thing he needed that Wall Street - or the climate - didn't
131 F16arm : Any thoughts about their agreement with Republic. Is F9 happy with them. And on a side note, has their load factors doing?
132 Ken777 : I'm talking about a CCP basically pushing an airline into Ch 11 because of an act on their part that might be considered excessive. In the future I w
133 Post contains links NZblue : Denver Business Journal: First Data offers regrets about Frontier Airlines Excerpt: "We regret that the current economic conditions have led to today'
134 JayDavis : Can you please tell me where you got this information that WN was ever looking at F9 and buying them out? Sure is news to me. Wouldn't make any sense
135 Mcdu : So BK is not OK for the legacies but it is fair for the LCC's to do so? Not sure I follow the logic. AAs for your list of airlines. WN is where they
136 AirFrnt : There is considerable backlash to this occurring in Colorado, which is not irrelevant - given that both First Data and F9 are Colorado companies. The
137 Surfrider1978 : The odds of this happening are about as good as UA innagurating service to the moon LGB has the same ammount of flights they are permitted by slots.
138 ADent : Where is this coming from? The linked article from the Denver Business Journal said they were cutting 100% of the advance ticket sales (45% to 100% w
139 Ikramerica : Maybe, just maybe, this action will lead to CCP reforms. Reading more about it since last night, they seem to practice nearly unregulated, usury type
140 N1120A : Not really. They are in not nearly as precarious a position as the airlines that have ceased operations. United, in particularly, did spend a very lo
141 LawnDart : Do you honestly think banks and CCPs don't consider the impact of their decisions? Well, okay...maybe some don't, but the majority do. And if you thi
142 LAXintl : Previous cancellation/refund rates have nothing to do with the hold back in this case. Frontier simply was deemed a significant risk by First Data ba
143 RedFlyer : Where did I say or imply that? I was just commenting that the reason the Legacies are still around is because they took advantage of BK to insulate t
144 N1120A : WN didn't buy TranStar, they bought Muse Air and renamed it TranStar. Also, they lost lots of money on the whole deal, so I don't see them doing such
145 Blr2Syr : Its crappy airlines like U*A*w*ys that need to go not good ones or atleast half decent
146 Airbus3801 : I think we all now realize that Southwest is quite the exception when it comes to a majority of American LCCs. WN is such a large airline at this sta
147 N1120A : Southwest is the exception when it comes to the majority of American carriers, period. WN still has plenty of expanding to do if they want. So does A
148 Post contains links United1 : Yes but even that is starting to change, the fuel bill is killing everyone. any while I am not at all saying the sky is falling it is not business as
149 XT6Wagon : Ignore the fleet concerns because really they DON'T exist. Look instead at the route maps. WN... wins big if they can "get rid of" F9, and the best w
150 RJNUT : HUH!?? thats how WN has thrived...fleet commonality!!!! and they are still resistant to budge off that stance!
151 Mariner : If Southwest were going to buy Frontier, they should have done it before yesterday. Chapter 11 protects Frontier form anything that could be consider
152 N1120A : WN carries over 100 million passengers a year. If they can even adjust their average fare by $1, they are way in the black. It isn't fun, but it can
153 Bicoastal : Do UA A319s and Frontier A319s have the same engines??? UA is dumping its 737-500s by the end of the summer. If UA can get rid of Frontier, then they
154 United1 : No UA uses IAE, F9 uses CFM
155 Daron4000 : Ok this is perhaps the silliest thing that I have ever read on this board. You think that the DOJ would approve a merger of the two dominating carrie
156 XJETFlyer : Nice knowing you Frontier. It's not if, but when they fall out of the sky. People, wake up and smell the coffee! The gravy train is over. I have a bad
157 LawnDart : Parker at America West...excuse me, USAirways, used CH11 to take over...wait a second, it was Parker at America West that took over US during US' ban
158 Mariner : I love the fat lady's "song", but - Mr. Parker offered just about as much for Delta as Delta valued itself when it came out of Chapter 11. You could
159 Jetdeltamsy : I'd like someone with access to actual F9 financial numbers. i am of the opiinion that Frontier is a very troubled airline. They pull out of markets
160 B757capt : but the cfm engine is used on the -300's
161 KingCavalier : I do not think they pull out of markets too quickly. Some on here believe AirTran does, though. I would prefer F9 pull out of a market if it's not ma
162 Socalfive : HUNH? Fleet not a concern? Well yes it sure as hell is. Frontier doesn't have anything Southwest really, REALLY wants. What Frontier IS though is a r
163 Coronado : Wondering if NWA-DAL merger does not go through, and UAL continues to take their eye off the throttle in denver, if NWA would make a bid to invest in
164 Byrdluvs747 : Why has there been no mention of VX buying F9? To me, WN buying F9 is highly unlikely. I'm not saying VX would operate F9's current route system(or ma
165 Laxboeingman : Good luck. What do you mean that you will make it in the log run. But anyways, best of luck. I think also, that it is because of the rising fuel costs
166 F9Animal : I totally agree with you. F9 sticks it out as long as possible. There has to be a set time period in a market you are trying. If the time period expi
167 EA CO AS : Because they haven't got a pot to piss in, that's why. Also, assuming they merged, it would cost many millions of dollars more to ensure fleet/brand
168 Antoniemey : The Sub-prime Mortgage issues that are causing most US banks serious financial trouble in recent months would seem to indicate otherwise. For years c
169 XT6Wagon : Sorry but aircraft are currently a nearly trivial concern. FAR FAR bigger issues are the people that you get with your shiny new company you bought.
170 Mariner : I'm with you there, F9Animal, and yes, there will be - have been - rampant merger speculations - most without any real foundation, perhaps. I very mu
171 Post contains images F9Animal : Thanks Mariner! I too appreciate every post you put on this board. You also have some great words and stories on another site that I visit often, and
172 Socalfive : I never said they were a deal-killer but they're always a concern. You're dead on right about the labor, but fleet integration is a top concern as we
173 Etops1 : unfortunately like i said in my earlier post. i don't think they are gonna make it out of this one. they are in deep s#it . and they know it. once aga
174 Vctony : I will be flying Frontier on April 26 (TUS-DEN-LGA) with TUS-DEN on Republic. I am looking forward to every minute of it. Hopefully F9 will be around
175 Etops1 : i sure hope your right Vctony
176 Sxf24 : US Bank (Nova) and First Data are two large CPPs for the airline industry. I don't think Nova or any minor processor are going to be jumping at the c
177 RJpieces : Looks like they are using the same bankruptcy lawyers in New York as Delta did...They seem to have come out in good shape though; may Frontier do so a
178 WesternA318 : While I have voiced my negative opinion on Frontier... I must agree to this, at least for all the folks below the upper management level. Try a certai
179 XJETFlyer : The bottom line is, mismanagement is showing it's ugly head! No more government tax dollars will be handed out to airlines that do not deserve a penny
180 F9Animal : XJETFlyer, are you kidding me with that comment? That is an insult to the hard working employees of every airline. There are thousands of dedicated h
181 Aloha717200 : I just want to say that this is a fantastic post, and I can identify with how you feel. I get the same feeling about the airlines I love most. Our pa
182 F9Animal : Hey Aloha717200, thanks! I too felt the same heartbreak when AQ went down (We have alot in common!). The empty feeling in the heart, and the sense of
183 Aloha717200 : This is why I am so concerned about F9 compared to some of the others that are struggling. F9 to me is like a mainland equivalent to Aloha. They are
184 ADent : What will it take for them to exit Bankruptcy? They will need more cash. Is that from sale & leaseback or a big loan? Both raise costs. Presumably the
185 Mariner : I'm not sure which "last 2 A318s" you mean? Frontier has sold 2 x A318, leaving them with 9 x A318 in the fleet. mariner
186 ADent : Ooops. Had 4 on the brain, but 11 is correct. What were/are the plans on when those 4 sold planes leave the fleet?
187 XJETFlyer : You have chosen your line of work just like I have. The dead wood i'm referring to is not employees per say, but companies that end up in the gutter.
188 Mariner : What "tax dollars" has Frontier received? After 9/11 they, like all the airlines, were reimbursed for the period of the shut down - from memory it wa
189 NwaLAS : How many aircraft do they have??? I really like seeing their aircraft here in Vegas under the sunshine. Nothing like a good flaming on a Monday mornin
190 BigOrange : Good luck to all F9 employees. After my first flight on F9 2 weeks ago, I hope they make it, although the staff do need some lessons in customer care
191 TheGreatChecko : I'm sorry you didn't like your customer service, unfortunately, you are bound to get that every once in a while. Unfortunately, on my last Southwest
192 Type-Rated : And Frontier also paid back those loans several years early as Mariner stated thereby saving a ton of interest! How many other airlines can say that?
193 Delta787 : Its disappointing to see Frontier have to file like this. I know they can survive though in the future. According to their website, 62. 11 A318s, 49 A
194 Sxf24 : All of them.
195 AirMike2 : Absolutely. My last Frontier flight was delayed 19 hours waiting for an part to be flown in. The Station Manager and the Agents pulled a disappearing
196 ATCtower : I really hope you arent referring to UA's "huge" international market at DEN?!? I am sorry to hear you had a poor experience with F9 staff, I can ass
197 Post contains links Type-Rated : Please state your information source that ALL airlines have paid back their loans early. Mine comes directly from press releases...... In fact, Front
198 Hiflyer : My question is how long F9 has been living on the credit card churn? Believe when Indy air got hit with the same it was not a long time until their sh
199 Mariner : Many of the US airlines are selling - or retiring - equipment and slashing routes. mariner
200 Sxf24 : Well, most airlines never had ATSB-backed loans to begin with. US Airways and America West have both repaid their loans, which were scheduled to matu
201 Mariner : In the case of United, the ATSB rejected their business plan - twice. mariner
202 Sxf24 : Yes, because they concluded UA didn't need the ATSB loan to reorganize.
203 Post contains links Mariner : United thought they did. Which is why they applied twice. Three times, if you count the amendment that was made after the second rejection. After tha
204 TheGreatChecko : If that's the case please write a letter or call F9 Customer Relations, that shouldn't happen and they need to know about it. Its one thing to have a
205 United1 : Your both actually right, UA applied and was turned down twice before BK was filed due to UAs, at that time, unsustainable business model. During BK
206 CBERFlyer : One may also submit a comment/complaint through their web site. I filed one recently in response to an in-flight mechanical problem and subsequent di
207 Post contains links Mariner : That timeline isn't quite as United sees it: The second - "updated" if you will - application to the ATSB was made prior to the Chapter 11 filing and
208 Post contains links United1 : Again that was the first two filings, the third amended one was rejected due to UA having sufficient access to the financial markets. The first two w
209 Gigneil : It would have been a breach of fiduciary responsibility for them to not apply for a favorable loan with government backing. Its their job to get the
210 Hiflyer : And on that ATSB loan it was a known issue that 2 Texas based and 1 Georgia based carrier turned their DC lobbyist staff loose on an antiloan campaign
211 Mariner : The status of the third filing - or third and one half - during Chapter 11 - 2004 is moot to the point. The critical first two application(s) (the se
212 United1 : That's not in dispute, and the cause of UAs BK is absolutely "moot to the point." Yes the 2002 filings wee due to UAs, at that time, business plan, t
213 Mariner : Sorry, I didn't think I was arguing with you. But the claim was made that the ATSB concluded United didn't need the guarantee, whereas, clearly, in 2
214 TxAgKuwait : Mariner: You need to rephrase that statement. No one knows how to cope with the double whammy of oil prices and the credit crunch - there is even a t
215 Post contains links Mariner : Fair enough. I should have used the thread title: "There is even a thread titled: "Will Southwest post its first loss in thirty+ years?" http://www.a
216 TxAgKuwait : The thread lends itself to incorrect interpretation for sure. The last loss for a full year was '72 (or maybe a small loss for '73 but they were prof
217 Post contains links Mariner : To try and bring this thread back on-topic, it is nice to see that the Chapter 11 filing does not seem to have deterred any pax this past weekend: htt
218 AirFrnt : Sorry, I have been through the grinder of Ch 11 recently enough to know that when the choice is between liquidation and merger, the courts will almos
219 Mariner : Nothing would surprise me. All I said was that on Wednesday they could have had Frontier for - generously - $80 or $90 million or less, and as of Fri
220 Mattnrsa : But everyone had already bought their tickets. AA's problems also helped other carriers' load factors over the last week. The true test will be in th
221 RedFlyer : I don't see WN making a move for F9 (unless I misunderstood your comment). WN could've had an easy and relatively painless acquisition with TZ and th
222 Post contains images Mariner : I think that is the point that I made: Even so, the load factor is pleasing for a soft April - higher than I would have expected - and the possibilit
223 Post contains links LAXintl : Frontier stock gets delisted and off to pink sheet land. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080415/latu096.html?.v=101
224 Mariner : There was a separate thread about this - which I now can't find. This is housekeeping - part of the process. Under NASDAQ rules, the stock must be de
225 AM744 : Who gets to pay the bill in that case?
226 FreequentFlier : I'm not really sure how F9 can survive. Are they cutting costs in bankruptcy? Doesn't sound like it so far. But since their business model apparently
227 Mariner : Surely, you jest? mariner
228 ADent : What costs have they cut so far?
229 Mariner : They have been in Chapter 11 exactly three working days, it is a very complex process. If you are expecting a daily calendar of costs they have cut,
230 RedFlyer : I don't believe the cost-cutting alone will impact them one way or the other in the short term. What I'd be curious to know is if the other credit ca
231 Post contains links Mariner : There is speculation in the Denver Post that Frontier will be wooed by other CCP's: http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_8937749 "Adil Moussa, a pay
232 Post contains links Mariner : There is also this funny in the Rocky Mountain News, about First Data - or these funnies: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new.../first-data-we-were-
233 AirFrnt : As I predicted earlier, I am hearing that there really is not a shortage of CCPs who are willing to work with F9. I suspect F9 will use this opportuni
234 Post contains links LAXintl : A couple bits of news today - CEO Sean Menke stating they plan to stick it out as an independent airline http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080417/frontier_airli
235 RedFlyer : I wonder how to interpret that...is it a positive, as in "we're strong enough to do this on our own", or is it a negative, as in "we're too weak for
236 AirFrnt : If F9 can survive the bankruptcy process, they will be in a great position to thrive after the current round of consolidation ends, esp if a UA + US
237 Petteri : I think this is the strategy that Menke wants to implement. F9 when we are running a route structure that makes sense has great revenue potential. I
238 Mariner : Oh, I really hope not. MEM was the final nail in the coffin of the previous CEO. There are so many more things Mr. Menke could do. Much more interest
239 Petteri : MEM probably isn't the best choice of "focus cities", I agree. But I do think the F9 does need "something" in the east. I haven't been in this indust
240 Mariner : SM will do what he sees as the best way, but the debate about an eastern hub or focus city since I first became aware of Frontier (1998). I think - o
241 Post contains links LAXintl : Frontier CEO is bringing in new blood and is building his management team http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080417/lath101.html?.v=101
242 Post contains links ADent : Sorry - I thought Mariner was jumping on FrequentFlyer for suggesting that no cost cutting had been started (or planned, or announced). But Mariner wa
243 Mariner : I jumped the concept that because none had been announced, none had - or were being - made. I am aware of some interesting cost cuts that have been m
244 Post contains links LAXintl : Here some comments from CEO Menke about First Data. Seems he is actualy quite understanding of what they did, and also advises getting a replacement i
245 Post contains links Mariner : Mr. Menke is an extremely reasonable man. As referenced above in post #243, here is the present situation with FDC: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/
246 AirFrnt : Yep. Open Skies is a sign of how the aviation market will expand, and should the LCC's be in a position to survive this next economic down turn, they
247 Vulindlela744 : I work for another LCC with our main hub in ATL.. I wish all the F9 employees great luck. I hope they make it through. Frontier is a great airline. I
248 Frontierflyer : Does anyone know the status on a code share partner for F9? I hope the chapter 11 filing does not scare away potential partners. WN must have had a gr
249 FreequentFlier : Then they might as well pack it up now and liquidate. "As you can imagine, we're going through a lot of things right now," Menke said. "Because we're
250 Post contains links Mariner : Mr. Menke is asked about that in the same RMN article: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new.../menke-confident-frontiers-future/ RMN/Menke: "On wheth
251 RedFlyer : I said it before and I'll say it again: I think Menke is doing what he intended to do all along when oil went above $100/bbl, which is to take F9 thr
252 ADent : Here is his plan: From that same Rocky Mountain News article.
253 Mariner : Each to their own, but wouldn't call that "his plan". That's a description of what can be done in Chapter 11. I would think his plan would be future
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