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Star Alliance Underrepresented On Certain Markets  
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2351 posts, RR: 14
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4442 times:
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Don't get me wrond, i LOVE Star Alliance, their product, theri airlines and their professionality!

However, what is the sense of having 8 network airlines in europe and NIL, Nada, Niente, no airline in South America??

Many citys are heavile overserved, whereas the South american market (like SCL or the Andean states) are heavily underserved or not served at all!! Now dont tell me more people want to fly to Clermont-Ferrand Aulnat in France than e.g. Lima Peru or Bogota Colombia.
SA has NO airline in South America since Varigs enormous breakdown .. whatbare they gonna do about it?? Try to get TAM ... wouldn't LAN be the perfect member if only we could get them out of oneworld!

And I can't remember a Star Alliance airline serving JFK-LHR nonstop!!! What the hell is this??? I can fly from 3rd tier provincial cities in inner Turkey to another 3rd tier provincial city in Italy or Cchina .... but I can't fly between two of the most important cities in the world?? (Sure, money, yield and rentability is an issue .... but thos connections are a MUST in a network)

Sorry for the little rant on an idle friday  Smile

Mario
LH526


Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4422 times:



Quoting LH526 (Thread starter):
but I can't fly between two of the most important cities in the world??

Actually you can fly between New York and London, just not on a Star Alliance carrier. UA used to fly the route, but pulled out some time ago. Neither EWR or JFK are major hubs for Star Alliance, and BMI does not operate any long haul flights from LHR. UA pulled out for a reason, so what do you propose?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineLSZS From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

I use to fly to LIM each year and I really want to have other options than IB or KL. In my opinion LAN is sitting in the wrong alliance!!! They should move to*A.

User currently offlineLongHaul67 From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 248 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

I have read several times in this forum that TAM are in discussions with SA. I think this was based on their agreement with LH.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4316 times:

UA served JFK-LHR once daily until a couple of years back, maybe less. Against the massive Ops offered by AA and BA between those routes in OW they decided, quite rightly to pull out and place the 777 on a route that would make money.
IMHO, in 2009 we will see BD fly this route as well as LHR-BOS but time will tell.
Its hardly Stars fault that Varig went down the pan leaving a gaping hole in Sout America although thats now being filled by TAM, who have an extensive codeshare with UA and I beleive LH. Whether TAM joins Star remains to be seen.


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5171 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4296 times:



Quoting LH526 (Thread starter):
And I can't remember a Star Alliance airline serving JFK-LHR nonstop!!!

I remeber flying a UA 767 and 777 on the LHR-=JFK route in 2001... but Ia gree, it is weird it is no longer served

Quoting LH526 (Thread starter):
However, what is the sense of having 8 network airlines in europe and NIL, Nada, Niente, no airline in South America??

Not their fault Varig went under.... Australia is also under represented after Ansett went bust


User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4256 times:



Quoting ANstar (Reply 5):
Not their fault Varig went under.... Australia is also under represented after Ansett went bust

But at least you can get there. SQ, TG, NZ and UA get you there.

About JFK-LHR route. Why? Why should *A jump into such a high competition route between airports where no *A airline has a hub to offer good onward connections. *A has two good hubs in Frankfurt and Munich.

About South America. This is really a problem for *A but I think TAM seems to be a good candidate.


User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

There are still no star alliance service around Australia cities/towns since the demise of Ansett Australia.


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5171 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 6):
Why should *A jump into such a high competition route between airports where no *A airline has a hub to offer good onward connections. *

And what is bmi exactly?

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 6):
But at least you can get there. SQ, TG, NZ and SA)">UA get you there.

And AC, CA, LH, SA, LX, TP & SA)">UA can get you to South America....

[Edited 2008-04-11 05:21:53]

User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4236 times:



Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 7):
There are still no star alliance service around Australia cities/towns since the demise of Ansett Australia.

I know but when you take a look at the South America network of *A you will see that you don't even get to major cities from Europe or the US.

Especially SQ serves at least all major Australian cities.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4164 times:



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 9):
Especially SQ serves at least all major Australian cities.

Well, if SQ suddenly went bust, it would leave a hole, much like when Varig went under. It's not Star's fault that the airline imploded, and AFAIK, Star Alliance is working to fill the gap.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

Very simply put SQ is not going to go bust. That is absurd to think SQ is going to go bust.

BP1



"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Totally agree with you that *A does lacks a sufficient coverage of SA. Also CA incl. Mexico, especially after MX decision to join 1W is not really their stronghold.

BOG only AC
LIM only AC
UIO no coverage
GYE no coverage
SCL AC, LX (via GRU)
EZE LH, UA, AC
GIG TP, UA (seasonal or via GRU)
CCS TP, AC, LH
GRU TP, LX, LH, UA, AC, CA
MVD no coverage
Paraguay, Bolivia no coverage

Conclusion, except for Brazil (thanks to TP), and to some extend EZE and CCS *A is not present in SA. If at all mostly through AC and I am not sure if they run daily services and non-stops.

I think Costa Rica, Guatemala and Belize are the only countries served by AC, UA and US in Central America.
In Mexico 1W has many destinations because of AA and in the future MX, Sky has CO, DL and AM. *A will have almost nothing.

What could they do??

1. I think the announcement of JJ joining *A will come this year and they will enter in 2009. That gives an excellent coverage of Brazil, and connections via GRU to MVD, Paraguay and Bolivia.
2. TA will join to cover Peru and Central America. They will have to adjust their flights, so that CCS-LIM-CCS works for TP / LH and MEX-SJO-MEX, MEX-GUA-MEX and MEX-SAL-MEX so it works for LH.
3. For Mexico the only chance I see, is that one of the new players like Interjet (isn't one of these new ones partly owned by TA?) will become a partner, but only if they start to operate out of MEX.
4. Columbia: Maybe US, UA and/or LH start flying there in the not so long future. Ongoing pax to MDE, UIO, GYE etc. can use AV. Maybe AV is even another candidate to join *A to cover the Andean Region, but the problem I see with AV is Ocean Air in Brazil.



NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
User currently offlineLSZS From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

I don't think that flights wihere you have to change a/c (like ZRH-FRA-CCS-LIM-CCS-FRA-ZRH: two stops) can compete with non stop or one stop flights, like ZRH-AMS-LIM-AMS-ZRH.

User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

Wow, I had no idea that AC was the biggest Star carrier in South America and they've been expanding:

CCS and POS separated into individual flights. CCS 4x/week.
EZE and SCL separated into individual daily flights.
GRU upgraded to 777.

I've also heard on occassion the possibility of BOG going to daily from 3x/week and AC starting service to Ecuador.


User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3924 times:

Star Alliance used to be great - am concerned by the recent introduction of new carriers diluting the quality it once stood for.

User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

I believe it is a shame that Star, with so many airlines members has not a decent network in every region around the world.  guilty 

Might be thought Star is not very selective with any new carrier who wants to join, unlike other alliances. I see Star has more quantity than quality (with just a few exceptions)

oneworld with just 10 to be soon 11 carriers has a similar, maybe even better, worldwide coverage than Star with so many airlines inside. (I can't remember the exact number as I've lost count)

Quoting LSZS (Reply 2):
In my opinion LAN is sitting in the wrong alliance!!!

No, be sure LAN is on the right alliance. They know pretty well why are an OW member. They even will paint an A-320 with an oneworld special livery being the second one to do it, after a JAL 777.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineGoodmanr From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

In general, *A is very weak in the New York market.

I wouldn't be surprised to see LH start up a JFK-LHR route, maybe even with PrivatAir?? Just a guess...

Since the LH investment in B6, there has been talk in the press a few times about LH building a mini-hub at JFK to feed into B6 eventually linking FF programs etc.. I wouldn't be surprised to see an LHR pairing out of this....



USAirways - Chairmans Gold
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3791 times:



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 16):
Might be thought Star is not very selective with any new carrier who wants to join, unlike other alliances.

Yes, not everyone can be a Skyteam with carriers such as Aeroflot, Korean, and CSA Czech....


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3773 times:



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 4):
UA served JFK-LHR once daily until a couple of years back, maybe less. Against the massive Ops offered by AA and BA between those routes in OW they decided, quite rightly to pull out and place the 777 on a route that would make money.

To be precise they actually sold their London -JFK rights to Delta, who then started up LGW-JFK, a far better fit for them with their extensive JFK operation. For UA it just didn't make sense against AA, BA, VS.

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Well, if SQ suddenly went bust, it would leave a hole, much like when Varig went under. It's not Star's fault that the airline imploded, and AFAIK, Star Alliance is working to fill the gap.



Quoting BP1 (Reply 11):
Very simply put SQ is not going to go bust. That is absurd to think SQ is going to go bust.

It certainly is absurd to think SQ might go bust. But its not beyond the realms of possibility that SQ might pull out of Star one day. Its been rumoured in parts of the industry for some time. There's a view that SQ feel that they are getting far less out of the alliance than other carriers are by having SQ in there.....



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3687 times:



Quoting Cornish (Reply 19):
It certainly is absurd to think SQ might go bust. But its not beyond the realms of possibility that SQ might pull out of Star one day.

Exactly. I wasn't trying to suggest that SQ would go bust, I was simply trying to illustrate that lack of coverage is impossible to avoid if a major carrier does go bust, as in the case of Varig.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24865 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3571 times:



Quoting LH526 (Thread starter):
And I can't remember a Star Alliance airline serving JFK-LHR nonstop!!!

UA had one flight a day JFK-LHR until they sold their New York-London route authority to DL about 18 months ago. With JFK not being a UA hub it wasn't a profitable UA route and they could make better use of the aircraft elsewhere.

Quoting LH526 (Thread starter):
However, what is the sense of having 8 network airlines in europe and NIL, Nada, Niente, no airline in South America??

But why do you have to fly on a Star Alliance carrier within South America? I'm sure virtually every major Star Alliance member has interline ticketing agreements with most if not all major airlines in South America and can easily book connecting flights and quote you a through fare.

It would be my guess that there are no Star carriers currently in South America simply because there aren't any carriers there with an extensive enough route network.


User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 16):
oneworld with just 10 to be soon 11 carriers has a similar, maybe even better, worldwide coverage than Star with so many airlines inside. (I can't remember the exact number as I've lost count)

I'm not so sure about that.

In North America, I would have to say that SA has a superior network overall.
In Europe, I would also have to say that the SA network is superior.
In the Middle East, their networks are quite similar, though I'd probably give the edge to SA with MS and TK over OW with RJ.
In Africa, no alliance has a fantastic network, but the SA network is certainly far larger than OW's.
In Asia, the SA network is far larger than the OW network.
In Australia, OW is much larger than the SA, though the major destinations are all well served from outside of Australia.
In South America, OW is larger than the SA, though the SA does have more destinations in Brazil.

There's not much the SA can do to improve in Australia; however, it does look like TAM may join the SA, further entrenching its dominant position in Brazil. If COPA were to join as well, as has been speculated on this board, the SA's network in the Americas would be very well balanced, and probably larger than OW or ST.

As far as Africa is concerned, I think that Ethiopian Airlines would be a good addition, though I don't believe there's any movement on that front.

Oneworld may have better quality overall; however, it's a bit absurded to suggest their network could be better than the Star Alliance's network.

[Edited 2008-04-11 13:45:28]

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3477 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Well, if SQ suddenly went bust, it would leave a hole

Not any real significant one, considering that TG is right there.

Quoting Goodmanr (Reply 17):
In general, *A is very weak in the New York market.

How ironic it will be if they end up snaring CO, and instantly become the strongest in the New York area.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 18):
Yes, not everyone can be a Skyteam with carriers such as Aeroflot, Korean, and CSA Czech....

Ah yes, how horrible it is to have the largest airline in a nation of vast potential growth; the airline with more USA-Asia destinations than any other, sharing ATI with its USA partner; and the first central European block airline to gain ATI with a USA member of one of the big3 alliances as well. The shame.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 18):
Yes, not everyone can be a Skyteam with carriers such as Aeroflot, Korean, and CSA Czech....

Indeed, SkyTeam is virtually unmatched in its ability to connect the new/emerging business & commercial centers of the world, especially with respect to the energy sector. And unlike Star and oneworld, SkyTeam's members (with the notablee exception of CO) actually work together and work together well, with a far more integrated alliance (in terms of network, scheduling, ATI, and even onboard service levels) than any other.

Sorry to sound like a ST marketing ad, but the truth is that too many people underrate SkyTeam simply because it operates with a decidedly different focus and set of strategies than the other two alliances, even though its the SkyTeam members that ultimately will be laughing themselves all the way to the bank with the expansion into new markets versus Star and oneworld members who have to try hard to NOT cannibalize each other's long-established traffic flows.

[Edited 2008-04-11 14:52:10]


Live life to the fullest.
25 Travelin man : Not that you bothered to comprehend the context with which it was stated, but my comment was specifically directed at the previous comment of: You ar
26 Avek00 : By choice or default, SkyTeam has a more "complementary" set of airlines with similar service levels compared to other airlines. For instance, in bus
27 N1120A : UA did, but stopped. It was served even more than that. It was only once daily for a very short time. There was nothing right about the whole thing.
28 Travelin man : That's only because the high end of Skyteam doesn't match the high end of OW or *A. So, in essence, when everyone is "OK" in Business Class, yeah, th
29 Doona : Damn. I keep forgetting about TG...
30 Nzrich : Yes and NZ has the most destinations for Australia CNS BNE OOL SYD MEL ADL PER NLK So pretty much most destinations are easily reached with SA
31 Avek00 : No, it's because unlike the other two alliances, SkyTeam is comprised mostly of carriers with good service levels.
32 Travelin man : So you are saying that most carriers in Star and OneWorld do not have good service levels? You realize that "most" = over 50%, correct?
33 Avek00 : No, I'm saying that Star and oneworld include carriers with premium products that range from top-end to laughable sh!tshows, whereas the SkyTeam carr
34 FlyboyOz : Yes I know...but I mean that there are no connections around the domestic in Australia. For example,no star alliance route between Darwin-Alice Spring
35 Travelin man : Have you ever flown NW or AZ????? I mean judging ffrom these comments I'd guess not.
36 N1120A : Other than Air France, the outdated product offered by the rest of the big SkyTeam carriers doesn't compare anymore
37 ConcordeBoy : Don't kid yourself, as if the likes of you would have the ability to confound me My statement stands exactly as presented. ....ah yes, taking into ac
38 Ojas : IIRC, until 2007 end there was no Star Alliance or rather any alliance visible on the Indian Subcontinent - Middle east route. All the carriers of eit
39 Avek00 : You guessed wrong -- I've done both Magnifica Class and World Business Class, and they're both quite good.
40 Avek00 : Last time I checked, CO, KE, and DL continue to bring in the awards for their products, the specs of the NWA/KLM WBC product is still superior to mos
41 Avek00 : ...and lest we forget, Thai and Asiana only got their acts together on premium longhaul about 15 minutes ago, and US/UA have miles yet to go before t
42 Avek00 : And it SkyTeam continues to work at it, either Jet Airways or Kingfisher -- or perhaps both -- may someday join, giving us the best of the Indian car
43 LipeGIG : And it's not, for sure it's TP with more than 8 daily flights to Brazil and 1 to Venezuela. KE is not outdated, CO has a good product. Star has more
44 Travelin man : "The likes of me"??? Dude, get over yourself. You don't even know me or what I do for a living. These are airline alliances. All have the strong and
45 Eta unknown : This thread doesn't make any sense... author says there's no Star service in South America, yet plenty of Star carriers fly to it. Ditto Australia. So
46 Daron4000 : Good compared to what? ST's product may be consistent only if it is because all of the premium prodcuts are not very top quality and most are mediocr
47 Avek00 : KE and CO routinely match and beat those carriers for the various industry excellence awards. And on the specs, NW WBC matches or exceeds the SQ Spac
48 ConcordeBoy : ...what, there an echo? Don't need to, in order to spot blatant ignorance as to a particular subject. In what criteria exactly, do list. Since when i
49 Viscount724 : Other SkyTeam carriers have codeshares with other carriers serving Australia, e.g. from AMS KL/MH via KUL and from CDG AF/QF via both SIN and HKG. Si
50 Travelin man : Wait, let me go to Flyertalk and pose the question: Does NW equal NH or SQ from a Business Class perspective? You would be laughed out of there. Spec
51 Viscount724 : You must be one of the lucky few (very few) who can afford to travel first class. In my experience the carriers that do NOT offer first class service
52 SJOtoLIR : Rumour has it that JJ may become a full Star Alliance member shortly. They are sustaining code-share agreements with other carriers involved in such
53 SKY1 : No super-selective but al least SkyTeam seems more selective than Star. By the way, I'm not ridiculous at all, maybe you're, but be sure I'm not. Sta
54 ETA Unknown : Quoting Viscount: "Other SkyTeam carriers have codeshares with other carriers serving Australia, e.g. from AMS KL/MH via KUL and from CDG AF/QF via bo
55 Jamincan : I would say that oneworld's coverage in Asia is less than adequate, their coverage in Africa is weak, and although LAN is a part of oneworld, there i
56 ConcordeBoy : Ah yes, good ol' FlyerTalk; that great bastion of logic and unemotional rationale. Perhaps better known as WhyAmINotGettingAnUpGradeOnMY99DollarInter
57 DeltaL1011man : hold on......Star has LH,BMI and UA Sky has DL(the largest TATL airline in the world) CO,KL/NW,CSA,AF(which CDG is the largest hub in Europe isn't?)
58 UAL777UK : So let me get this right, you think UA should have stayed in these markets, bleeding money as opposed to transferring those 777's to more profitable
59 Nzrich : oh and you forgot the following for Europe for SA In addition to LH BMI and UA You have to add Lot SAS Swiss Austrian TAP Spanair Blue 1 Adriana Croa
60 123 : I totally agree Bolivia is underserved and also that Star Alliance coverage in South America is too low. As an LH and AF FTL I keep pushing more to A
61 SKY1 : It's enough, at least better in comparison with Star does it in Latin America. Weak? Africa is linked with Europe, Asia and Oz. I recognize, anyhow,
62 Travelin man : Once TAM joins Star, that hole will not exist.
63 Travelin man : What's the deal with the personal attacks? Really uncalled for....
64 RCS763AV : LIM and BOG are stuck with 3x weekly AC flights to YYZ, meanwhile, oneworld and skyteam offer at least 5 daily flights to each, and in the case of BO
65 ConcordeBoy : ...no attacks cher. Just observations.[Edited 2008-04-12 13:11:53]
66 Viscount724 : But it's still relevant as other posters keep referring to the difficulty of reaching certain parts of the world on members of a certain alliance. Wh
67 SKY1 : Why airlines alliances happen, then? It's not only a FFP issue, but there are some products such as the Round the World fares and other like Circle P
68 Viscount724 : In my personal opinion and experience the advantages promoted by the major alliances ("seamless service" etc.) are seldom fulfilled. Much of it is ma
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