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Frontier In ASE (positive News)  
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

I don't know how Frontier's entry into Ch.11 will affect this news, and Frontier's future at ASE, but here's a video piece I found about Frontier's new Q400 service to Aspen:

http://aspen.plumtv.com/videos/frontier_airlines_preview

I'm totally biased because a friend works for this network, but it's great to see this kind of story (an airline helping a local economy) instead of the typically negative tone most media outlets employ.


buhh bye
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

Good luck to Frontier. They're going to have a hell of a lot of competition on DEN-ASE, but also have to try and pull passengers from ATL, SLC, SFO, LAX, and ORD.

Also, despite the slower approach speed of the Q400, they will still have to deal with the extraordinarily high minimums and tailwinds that SkyWest has to deal with.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2318 times:
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Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1):
They're going to have a hell of a lot of competition on DEN-ASE,

They have some things working for them. Here's an article about the visit:

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20080410/VALLEYNEWS/284579019

It points out that Frontier's Q400 left DEN after the UA/Mesa flight - and got to ASE before the UA/Mesa flight.  Smile

Seriously, I'm sure ASE will be a tough market, and it may be the one where United decides to make a stand, but Frontier knows that.

It was a neat video, Lymanm. Thanks for posting.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

maybe thats why UA was looking at the Q400 at Palwaukee recently...looking to add to the same markets as F9 out of DEN

User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2164 times:



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1):
Also, despite the slower approach speed of the Q400, they will still have to deal with the extraordinarily high minimums and tailwinds that SkyWest has to deal with.

The Dash 8 - Q400 is a MUCH more capable aircraft than the CRJ-700 into ASE. It has much better performance at that altitude and it will be able to fly the approaches with less restrictions. The aircraft is designed for this kind of flying.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2116 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
The Dash 8 - Q400 is a MUCH more capable aircraft than the CRJ-700 into ASE.

I never said it wasn't. The speed category helps a lot.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
it will be able to fly the approaches with less restrictions.

But to what MINIMUMS? They (LYNX) would have to pay a hefty premium for the training and certification on an (possibly non-existant) approach with less minimums than the already approved special minimums for the LOC/DME RWY 15 approach.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
The aircraft is designed for this kind of flying.

Yes, it was, to a degree. It, however, does not have the range required on many routes that the CRJ-700 can provide without issue. So, while they both have different performance capabilities, they have both have different missions.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2046 times:



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
But to what MINIMUMS? They (LYNX) would have to pay a hefty premium for the training and certification on an (possibly non-existant) approach with less minimums than the already approved special minimums for the LOC/DME RWY 15 approach.

Lynx will be working on that advanced training through the summer and obviously has no problem paying for the additional training. If you notice, there were three captains on that PR flight, the CP was doing some in aircraft training.

Part of the problem that SkyWest has is that to be able to safely fly to those minimums, the aircraft is weight restricted. Plus, with the lower speeds, circling approaches, akin to what Air Wisconsin was able to pull off with the Avros a few years ago are possible. What the Q400 allows is options.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
Yes, it was, to a degree. It, however, does not have the range required on many routes that the CRJ-700 can provide without issue. So, while they both have different performance capabilities, they have both have different missions.

Any CRJ flying that would use that range would be trading off its already limited payload. The Q can fly into ASE pretty much full and not have a pretty scary notation on their approach plates like the CRJ operators: "Successful single engine go-around is unlikely beyond this point." Flying a CRJ into Aspen is a pretty borderline operation on a good day and pushes the limits of what the aircraft can do. The Q400, however, is very comfortable in that environment.



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1974 times:



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 6):
Part of the problem that SkyWest has is that to be able to safely fly to those minimums, the aircraft is weight restricted.

It's been weight restricted on landing all of this time, and I didn't know? We've got to fire Aerodata for providing us false information!

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 6):
Any CRJ flying that would use that range would be trading off its already limited payload.

Given the single route of ASE-DEN that the CRJ-700 will compete with the Q400 on, rarely does the CRJ-700 restrict. On longer segments, yes, it does, but only in the summer season, or the tailwind at ASE is greater than 5 or so knots; however, in the summer, fewer passengers fly out of ASE, so it's a moot point.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 6):
Flying a CRJ into Aspen is a pretty borderline operation on a good day and pushes the limits of what the aircraft can do.

Flying ANY aircraft in ASE will push the limits of what an aircraft can do; however, it's not a borderline operation. The limitations for aspen are single engine. If the aircraft couldn't make it out single engine—despite a "scary" warning—it wouldn't be going there in the first place.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 6):
circling approaches,

Until you show me some minimums, this is the only thing that the Q400 beats the CRJ-700 on.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

Anyone in the loop that dispatches ASE flights regularly know how often wind conditions warrant circling approaches?

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 7):
Until you show me some minimums, this is the only thing that the Q400 beats the CRJ-700 on




buhh bye
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1703 times:



Quoting Lymanm (Reply 8):
Anyone in the loop that dispatches ASE flights regularly know how often wind conditions warrant circling approaches?

The winds favor 15 every day for landing, but the actual percentage of diversions for the CRJ-700 based on winds alone is in the 1-3% range, and it's usually in the 2-4 PM area due to windshear and the changeover from upslope to downslope winds. There are times when storms prevent the use of 15, but you wouldn't really wouldn't want to land in ASE when storms and windshear are going on in the first place. However, winds are generally calm enough to not matter.

Takeoff is a bigger issue because of how most (not all) planes have to use 33. Those that are able to use 15 need special permission from the airport admin, and since the Q400 is flown 121, I don't believe that they would get authorization to use it.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Good UA needed low cost competition there. Their flights are outrageously overpriced in winter, while flying to DEN is so cheap because there is competition there.

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1666 times:



Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 10):


Good UA needed low cost competition there. Their flights are outrageously overpriced in winter,

Because with all the "gotchas" involved with operating in and out of ASE operationally wise... especially with a CR7... UA *needs* to charge high fares to maintain any semblance of profitability on the route. Shame on UA for trying to make a profit!


User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1642 times:



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
especially with a CR7... UA *needs* to charge high fares to maintain any semblance of profitability on the route.

With Eagle/Vail relatively close being served with mainline aircraft, it's more of a "convenience" fee, since no self-respecting Aspenite would DARE be caught driving from Eagle to Aspen.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1551 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
UA *needs* to charge high fares to maintain any semblance of profitability on the route. Shame on UA for trying to make a profit!

United has matched the Frontier fares on all of the new mountain routes.  confused 

mariner



aeternum nauta
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