VikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 499 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8043 times:
I do not have a reputable source for this but I work in corporate sales for a major airline and many of our travel agents have effective immediately ceased all bookings on AZ in fears that they are going under.
Why are airlines all having problems right now? I know fuel prices are up but they have been - why the wave of chapter 11's and ceases in business all of the sudden?
I know our fiscal year runs April - March, is this common for many airlines? If so, it would explain why airlines are realizing at the end of their fiscal year that they haven't made any money.
Next to go: Either bankrupt or cease of ops:
SX (Cease of ops as of this week)
F9 (Bankrupt as of today)
AZ - inevitable? we'll see
UA (per an article posted here a couple days ago)
FL - they're not looking good right now
...you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you shall return
BAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 31 Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7841 times:
Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter): I do not have a reputable source for this but I work in corporate sales for a major airline and many of our travel agents have effective immediately ceased all bookings on AZ in fears that they are going under.
It is actions like that that will make the failure of AZ a self fulfilling prophecy.
There was a signal yesterday that the government may be willing to try to bring AF/KL back to the table. It was a very carefully worded statement by the outgoing government and some players in the new Berlusconi government that gave the signal that if the unions play ball and conclude a deal with AF/KL, then the government would be inclined to grant them a bridge loan to get them through their cash crunch. As of a few days ago, they had EUR170M cash on hand...they are burning about EUR1.0M or so a day, with the summer season coming and Italians headed to the US where it is cheap for them this year, they probably will have a couple of profitable months. Effectively, this means that AZ has until the fall or early winter before they arrive at a point in which cash becomes a crisis instead of an issue.
This is plenty of time for them to bring AF/KL back to the table and get a deal done. AF/KL very much wants this deal to protect themselves in the Med from LH and Co., so I think that we will see some "flexibility" on their part...much more so than what happened when the union threw something down that caused AF/KL to walk away. If I read between the lines (which you have to do when dealing with anything, especially in Italy), the signal is that the government has been talking to the unions and if everyone is willing to come back and talk, then a deal could get done and the Italian government will make sure that AZ has the cash to operate until it does.
Don't write off AZ just yet...they have been very near the abyss so many times before...it's really hard to know if this is real or if AZ will finally just die. One thing is certain...if nothing happens, then AZ will fail, before the end of this year.
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
Caribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2549 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7842 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 2): The way AZ is set up at the moment, it might be better to let it disappear and then create a new more efficient Italian national carrier.
I have to agree with this, if AZ cannot get their act together, then the airline needs to go and the Italian Government needs to invest in a new national airline; one with proper capital, better employee work rule, new cooporate culture, better route structure. The Italian Gov't could also use AF-KLM to help out with such a new venture.
Caribillo From Spain, joined Jul 2006, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7797 times:
Quoting Caribbean484 (Reply 7): I have to agree with this, if AZ cannot get their act together, then the airline needs to go and the Italian Government needs to invest in a new national airline
If AZ fails there will not be another italian national carrier. It is utopic.
Caribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2549 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7778 times:
Quoting Caribillo (Reply 6): Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 3):
BA will be the last carrier to go, buddy.
Bigger empires have dispeared!
Lol, yeah, TWA, PanAm, National, Sabena, amongst others. But from what is seen, BA has a very good financial background so for them to disappear will be quite shocking.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5722 posts, RR: 20 Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7663 times:
VikingA346 From Sweden, joined Oct 2006, 499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7608 times:
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 10): "right now" ? Alitalia never made even 1€ profit in the past 10 years !
Sorry, I should have clarififed. I know airlines have always had a tough time but I'm just stating this based on all of the recent press that certain airlines are close to going under. After the fall of SX and the chapter 11 of F9, I'm just wondering why all this is happening *now* - end of fiscal year of the airliness?
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5722 posts, RR: 20 Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7575 times:
Quoting VikingA346 (Reply 13): Yes, I can find the article for you if you want but it was posted that F9, FL and UA are all looking bad right now.
I know, I saw it. IAnd as was discussed in that thread, there are a whole lot of other factors.
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 72 Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7508 times:
Quoting BAW716 (Reply 5): Quoting VikingA346 (Thread starter):
I do not have a reputable source for this but I work in corporate sales for a major airline and many of our travel agents have effective immediately ceased all bookings on AZ in fears that they are going under.
It is actions like that that will make the failure of AZ a self fulfilling prophecy.
And the airlines, amongst them Alitalia, have no-one to blame but themselves.
Airlines are extremely well protected in the case of a travel agent going bankrupt - travel agencies are virtually unprotected in the case of airline bankrupcies. Several tries at putting in some form of protection for travel agencies were blocked by the airlines, so travel agent's are doing nothing but protecting their own interest, and that of their customers, by not selling AZ any longer.
It's a simple fact - be a reliable partner and everything's fine... risk losing other people's money and possibly pulling some down with you, and out you go.
If I were still in sales, I wouldn't sell AZ tickets unless I had a signed form from the customer confirming that he/she was informed of the situation, whilst releasing the company I work for from any and all financial risk resulting in a possible grounding/shutdown/bankrupcy.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15723 posts, RR: 47 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7482 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 2): The way AZ is set up at the moment, it might be better to let it disappear and then create a new more efficient Italian national carrier.
I can't think of a group of employees and politicians that more deserve to have their patronage machine disappear.
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10189 posts, RR: 62 Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7467 times:
Just let it die already!
The business model of Alitalia - to say nothing of its unions - are no longer viable. (Well, actually, they haven't been viable for thirty years.)
NW748i From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7408 times:
But the reverse true? I think not. I can find no good reason why AF-KL would want to expend reasources dealing with such an incompetent government. Seriously, AF-KL trying to talk to someone like Berlusconi simply will not happen.
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
And you guys are going to find a new job for their 3000 pilots?
What about the new pilot graduates who will struggle to find their first job because Alitalia pilots will fill all the European and Middle-East vacancies for the next 6 to 12 months?
Who's gonna pay unemployment money to 20 000 people?
AZ needs restructuring and it needs to be based in Milan not FCO as AF-KL desires.
AF-KLM has alot more to win in this case than some may suggest. Who would not want to control the Italian tourism rich market? Who would not want to put their hands on the longhaul business market of Northern Italy?
AF-KLM wants to buy AZ to feed its CDG/AMS longhaul hubs, nothing more, nothing less.
F9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4731 posts, RR: 30 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6832 times:
I actually am not too worried about FL. Granted it is tough right now, they have been pretty smart with their money and investments. UA is hurting, but as far as I have heard, they have plenty of options to avoid bankruptcy.
Heck, if there is no change soon, we are going to see plenty more bankruptcies.
It is very sad to see Alitalia in such rough shape. If anything, I hope they can stay airborne. An airline is still an airline even if it has one airplane. Why don't some of these airlines go back to the basics, and try to rebuild. Remove all the routes you lose money on, park planes, and fly only the routes that are making you money. It reduces demand on oil, reduces maintenance, and reduces costs. Oh heck, am I doing the armchair CEO crap right now? I better stop.
TUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6778 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20):
It is very sad to see Alitalia in such rough shape. If anything, I hope they can stay airborne.
It's hard to picture Italy without Alitalia. So many good memories of Alitalia flights to North Africa (despite the hit or miss service). Those green seats would be sorely missed :P
Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
Caribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2549 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6768 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 17): The business model of Alitalia - to say nothing of its unions - are no longer viable. (Well, actually, they haven't been viable for thirty years.)
Its not just the business model, it the entire structure of the airline and the incompetence of the current Government Administration. The unions also are not helping the situation at all. Bury the airline and let everyone go home and get new jobs.
SQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1437 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6737 times:
Quoting NCB (Reply 19): And you guys are going to find a new job for their 3000 pilots?
I see the medal from the other side. Alpi Eagles could live by now if AZ wouldn' t have filled up with state money and what about Volare, Air One is growing now very heavy at MXP.
AZ pilots union is no cent better than any other AZ union, and they are all suffering from a long constant megalomania!
With their way of living and working they will struggle very hard flying in a new company.
AZ employees/management just lost their eye on reality and the entire company needs to be scrapped and built up again from 0
Wouwout From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6723 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20): AF-KLM wants to buy AZ to feed its CDG/AMS longhaul hubs, nothing more, nothing less.
Well, that's a very simplified way of looking into this matter. The new AF/AZ/KLM group would gain a lot more from another hub in Italy. Direct flights are the way to go. If the new group doesn;t provide direct flights, someone else will.
Hubs have never been a huge success in Europe - when compared to the US.
When AF acquired KLM the same statements where made. Guess what, AMS is a market in itself and provides a lot more euros than concentrating all flights in CDG ever will.
26 Flylku: There is a joke about two hikers who encounter a bear. One takes up and runs while the other sits down to take off his boots and put on his sneakers.
27 OA260: That livery actually suits the A380 well....shame we will never see it.
28 Gkirk: Nah, Ryanair and easyJet would still be around.
29 Cedarjet: Given how long AZ have already lasted, they're basically bullet-proof. I always joke that the very last airline in Europe to disappear will be AZ. It
30 DanAir727: British Airways is our national carrier. i doubt it will go if it does Bmi can be our national airline!
31 BNinMSY: Many could be ... and many may not be ... AZ still provides great options from major markets to/from Rome. Their recent move to create FCO as a hub h
32 NCB: Which is why it is the better candidate for the take-over. Apparently the AZ boarder and the govs stopped negociating with them because they wanted t
33 Traindoc: I don't think AZ can last much longer. It is running out of cash and now people will stop making reservations for fear of bankruptcy, which only incre
34 Manfredj: Oh my! I think that's the one good thing to come out of this. That's terrible looking in that color scheme. Even if they stayed afloat, the 380 order
35 Leskova: A credit card company cannot simply refund money owed to an existing (and operating) company. If AZ goes down, then AMEX is the company you need to t
36 Brilondon: It is not AZ making life difficult it is the unions that represent the Alitalia workers that are queering any deal. As usual the workers want to be i
37 Lightsaber: Airlines have always been a business where the profits go to the last one standing. In effect, the business rewards those that adapt and punishes tho
38 Bmacleod: Surely Air Italy can be developed into a national carrier. What other option is there?
39 COEI2007: Midwest, Suncountry, and a few european airlines like SkyEurope could be next on the list with the price of oil
40 Jetdeltamsy: This is Italy we're talking about. They are highly socialist politically. If the government gets involved in starting a new airline, they're going to
41 BAW716: Well, believe it or not, I agree with you...and I've been in airline sales and travel agency management in the 30 years I've been around this busines
42 MMEPHX: AZ has been on the brink of bankruptcy for so many years that I'm not sure what the difference is now. It should have restructured years ago then it m
43 Jetdeltamsy: Gas. I can't afford to drive to the market. It's affecting airlines to the max. And referring to the OP's comment that travel agencies have stopped b
44 BAW716: Worse...is when they do that and book the flight on the other airline side of the code share. Not only does the airline carrying the passenger have t
45 Burkhard: To my knowledge of Italy, things are much easier. Rome is the South, the South votes left, that is why Prodi wanted Rome as hub, and this fits better
46 OA260: Will Silvio Berlusconi save Alitalia now he has won power????
47 Flyin5glow: VikingA346 is not saying that BA won't disappear but that they will be the last to go. I couldn't agree more, although AS will be the second to last
48 Rbgso: If that is all they want, they are paying an extremely high price. As far as who will employ the pilots, they will have to find other jobs somewhere
49 Multimark: Amen. I read somewhere that Alitalia has had just one profitable full year since 1946!? If that's true, just let it go. Is it the government's job to
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