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Could A Cape Air Model Service Work In Michigan?  
User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1648 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

Last night, I was bored, and got to thinking if a Cape Air type service work in Michigan? What I was thinking is you would use a C402, and use Lansing (because it is the capital) as the hub. I thought that you could have 2 daily to each destination throughout the state. I thought a lot of people might like to use it to avoid traffic and hopefully the lower fares.

I would have the following routes:

LAN-APN
LAN-AZO
LAN-CIU
LAN-FNT
LAN-GRR
LAN-MBS
LAN-KSAW
LAN-TVC

FNT-GRR
GRR-FNT

Anyone think this model could work?

Thanks
JetBlueGuy2006


Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

It would depend wholly on the demand between the city pairs. If it is there, it would be a success. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be.


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

I'm not sure if Lansing would be the city to start service from, since while it is the capital it doesn't have as much O&D as other cities like Detroit or Flint or Grand Rapids do. But I think it would work in many places.


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User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3803 times:



Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Thread starter):
I would have the following routes:

LAN-APN
LAN-AZO
LAN-CIU
LAN-FNT
LAN-GRR
LAN-MBS
LAN-KSAW
LAN-TVC

FNT-GRR
GRR-FNT

Anyone think this model could work?

Some of those routes would never work, as they are well within driving distance.
LAN-AZO, LAN-FNT, LAN-GRR, LAN-MBS, and even FNT-GRR are well within reasonable driving distances where air service is difficult to justify, particularly for the costs within minimal time savings.

There are a few routes in the state that would make sense, but I'm not sure if there is a benefit of being a Part 121 versus just being a Part 135 operation. Being a 135 would allow you to use airports like PTK or Oakland-Troy. There was a operation a few years ago that was running quasi-scheduled service out of PTK up to Northern Michigan places like PLN, Mackinaw Island, Harbor Springs, & TVC a few years ago on the weekends to capture some of the more affluent "Up North" traffic.

Some routes that might work include primarily routes to/from Northern Michigan & UP. Anything within the southern part of the state likely has little chance of success.

LAN-TVC
LAN-MQT
LAN-CIU
LAN-CMX
GRR-MQT
GRR-CMX

PTK-PLN
PTK-TVC
PTK-MQT
PTK-GRR
PTK-Cleveland area
PTK-Chicago area
PTK-GRR

I'm not sure how well any of these routes might work based on the current cost of fuel though.


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3709 times:
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Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Some of those routes would never work, as they are well within driving distance.

 checkmark 

The reason why the short routes work for Cape Air is generally because they span water (hard to drive over water).

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Thread starter):
if a Cape Air type service work in Michigan?

I honestly think a Cape Air style network would be very hard to replicate for many reasons, the least of which is that no one produces nine passenger (or similar) sized aircraft anymore. The only planes that fit the bill are generally 20 years old. I worked for Cape Air for a while and let's just say that the planes weren't the most reliable birds in the sky.

Simple economics would also make it very difficult for such an operation to get off the ground. When flying such small airplanes your margins become very narrow. There is a fine line between charging enough to make money and charging too much. Also, when you're dealing with flights that are, on average, less than 100 miles long the smallest of delays can really disrupt your system. Customers will just bail, rent a car and probably save some money in the process. Rising fuel costs don't help this situation any, either.

On a related note, I've heard some rumors from friends at Cape Air that their Indiana service is going no where fast. I'm not sure how accurate that information is but, if it's true then that might demonstrate how similar service in Michigan might go


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

NW would never stand for it, the Midwest and MI is firmly under there thumb, no pun intended.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2426 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3581 times:
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Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 4):
one produces nine passenger (or similar) sized aircraft anymore.

Doesn't Cessna still make Caravans and Pilatus the PC-12? Wouldn't those fit the bill? And what about Cape Air's alleged service to Coastal Oregon from PDX, will that ever begin???



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3534 times:



Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 4):
On a related note, I've heard some rumors from friends at Cape Air that their Indiana service is going no where fast. I'm not sure how accurate that information is but, if it's true then that might demonstrate how similar service in Michigan might go

Didn't they extend their EVV flights another year? That to me sounds like everything is fine.



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3923 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3511 times:
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i've always pondered that....................would be nice to see a CO Connection doing some flights w/in michingan and indiana!!


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineMetJetCEO From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 411 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3441 times:

I have put a great deal of thought into this, but I dont think the value of intra MI is there. I would include flights that hopped over the Lake, as the drive between MI and WI is insane. For those that have never driven around Lake Michigan it is hard to fathom the distance. I would include GRB in routes into MI and the Chicago area (MDW or GYY) for flights into northern MI.

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3411 times:

I like the idea too. Something like Cessna 402s or Piper PA-31s, or even King Air 100s for the aircraft


I could see maybe making its main "hub" at PTK. People in Detroit area could fly direct to various resort cities in Northern Michigan like Charlevoix, Traverse City, Mackinac Island Airport, Drummond Island, Isle Royal and various places in the U.P. - this is more leisure

In return, the people that live up in the northern regions of the state, could also have an airline that could get them to the business area of Metro Detroit which is closer to PTK vs DTW (such as Troy, Auburn Hills etc).

I could see destinations out of PTK being:

PTK - Benton Harbor
PTK - Muskegon
PTK- Alpena
PTK - TVC
PTK - Charlevoix
PTK - Drummond Island
PTK - Petosky
PTK - Mackinaw City or Mackinac Island
PTK - Sault St Marie
PTK - Copper Harbor
PTK - Marquette
PTK - Isle Royal
PTK - Escanaba


Lansing

LAN - TVC
LAN - Charlevoix
LAN - various U.P. destinations

GRR - to several U.P. locations too


Perhaps - small focus city in Marquette

Marquette - AZO, PTK, LAN, GRR, FNT

I could see this airline also eventually expanding a little out of state with Toledo, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport, Port Clinton/Sandusky and Put In Bay and the Ohio islands on Lake Erie.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

The problem that I see is that there just isn't enough consistent demand to allow for scheduled service. Most of these routes would never be successful on a daily basis.

The success rate for 9-seat airline operators is very low. The current economic condition in Michigan currently does not help at all. Perhaps a much better on-demand charter service that actively markets to companies throughout Michigan would be much more successful than attempting to market and operate a scheduled service airline.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3327 times:



Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 4):
Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Some of those routes would never work, as they are well within driving distance.



The reason why the short routes work for Cape Air is generally because they span water (hard to drive over water).

Cape Air's two Indiana routes don't pass over large bodies of water. However, there are not freeways from IND to either SBN or EVV. US 31 goes from IND to SBN, but it has a LOT of stop lights; there isn't even a direct non-freeway route from IND to EVV.

Indiana is in the process of upgrading US-31 to interstate standard freeway from IND to SBN (which will likely be designated I-67 once construction is done), and will break ground in a few weeks for a long-delayed extension of I-69 from IND to EVV. US-31/ I-67 to SBN is due to be done in 2012; I-69 to EVV should be done by 2017. Once those freeways are complete, I think Cape Air will lose most of their intra-Indiana market.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3310 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
Once those freeways are complete, I think Cape Air will lose most of their intra-Indiana market.

Agreed. And one can deduct from this, that since Michigan already has good freeway links between many of the cities mentioned at the start of this thread, a similar Cape Air model wouldn't work in Michigan. Well, maybe flights between the UP and the Southern part of lower Michigan...but not LAN-FNT, etc.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3268 times:



Quoting Chase (Reply 13):
Agreed. And one can deduct from this, that since Michigan already has good freeway links between many of the cities mentioned at the start of this thread, a similar Cape Air model wouldn't work in Michigan. Well, maybe flights between the UP and the Southern part of lower Michigan...but not LAN-FNT, etc.

The UP is an odd region though.

Politically it is tied to Michigan. However, for just about everything else - Business, culture, and geographically, it has more ties to northern Wisconsin & northern Minnesota - particularly the farther west you go.


User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3234 times:



Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
However, for just about everything else - Business, culture, and geographically, it has more ties to northern Wisconsin & northern Minnesota - particularly the farther west you go.

Huh...didn't know that. I figured there'd be a lot of traffic between the two halves of the state, for instance employees of state-wide businesses, and downstaters going to the UP for vacation. But admittedly that was just a guess.


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3159 times:
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Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):

Cape Air's two Indiana routes don't pass over large bodies of water. However, there are not freeways from IND to either SBN or EVV. US 31 goes from IND to SBN, but it has a LOT of stop lights; there isn't even a direct non-freeway route from IND to EVV.

Indiana is in the process of upgrading US-31 to interstate standard freeway from IND to SBN (which will likely be designated I-67 once construction is done), and will break ground in a few weeks for a long-delayed extension of I-69 from IND to EVV. US-31/ I-67 to SBN is due to be done in 2012; I-69 to EVV should be done by 2017. Once those freeways are complete, I think Cape Air will lose most of their intra-Indiana market.

Like I said before, though, the Indiana routes are not going well for Cape Air.


User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3141 times:



Quoting Chase (Reply 15):
I figured there'd be a lot of traffic between the two halves of the state, for instance employees of state-wide businesses, and downstaters going to the UP for vacation. But admittedly that was just a guess.

Tourists, yes. But as PSU said, the Yoopers don't really identify with the Trolls (LP residents, called so because they live below the bridge). In the 1970s, there was a "serious" campaign to have the UP break off from the LP and become their own state, the State of Superior. I don't know exactly what they were thinking, as the UP receives a huge amount of money from Lansing. Pasty making and a little iron ore mining does not a successful economy make.



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3128 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 10):
NASCARAirforce

I always thought that Oakland County to Chicago, Buffalo, Pittsburg or Cleveland
might work. I would use apx 30 pax aircraft... perhaps a Dornier turboprop.

Affordable flights connecting MBS,LAN, GRR or FNT with the U.P. could also work out.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3041 times:



Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 3):
Being a 135 would allow you to use airports like PTK or Oakland-Troy.

If any airport in Michigan could support a Cape Air type operation, it would be Oakland Troy. Oakland Troy is within walking distance of Birmingham and the office parks along Big Beaver Road, and less than fifteen minutes drive from Bloomfield Hills or Auburn Hills. Because the airport is so small, a passenger living in Birmingham could literally drive from Birmingham to Oakland Troy, clear security, and fly to Chicago in less time than it would take them to drive from Birmingham to DTW, park, clear security, and walk to their gate at DTW.

However, the NIMBYs in Birmingham and Troy would be so apopleptic about the prospect of even quasi scheduled air service at Oakland Troy that they would do everything they could to stop the plans dead in their tracks.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3031 times:
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Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 4):
On a related note, I've heard some rumors from friends at Cape Air that their Indiana service is going no where fast.

I've watched their flights from SBN depart many times with 1 or no passengers at all. I think your statement may be true.

As for a Michigan network, I think Northwest would put an end to that very quickly, if it would even work to begin with.

-Charlie


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3005 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
Cape Air's two Indiana routes don't pass over large bodies of water. However, there are not freeways from IND to either SBN or EVV. US 31 goes from IND to SBN, but it has a LOT of stop lights; there isn't even a direct non-freeway route from IND to EVV.

Wow, I wasn't aware that Cape Air flew anywhere besides Mass and Florida

Quoting Chase (Reply 13):
Agreed. And one can deduct from this, that since Michigan already has good freeway links between many of the cities mentioned at the start of this thread, a similar Cape Air model wouldn't work in Michigan. Well, maybe flights between the UP and the Southern part of lower Michigan...but not LAN-FNT, etc

LAN-FNT are too close, maybe MBS-GRR since you have to go out of the way to catch freeways - either U.S.10 to 131, which aren't freeways all the way or I-75 to I-69 to I-96, which takes you a ways out of the way.

I still see definite opportunity to the U.P. for example GRR to Marquette - the only air service now would be to fly GRR-DTW, then DTW- Marquette. There really are no freeways in the U.P. except for I-75 from St. Ignace to Sault St. Marie, everything else is two lane highways. From Grand Rapids to U.P. you'd have to take 131, which is a freeway up to Cadillac, but everything after that is 2 lane road and you have to cut across to I-75, cross the Mackinaw Bridge, then take U.S. 2 across the lower U.P. (pretty fast 2 lane road) until you find a road that takes you to Marquette.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
The UP is an odd region though.

I feel like I am in another country when I am there.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 18):
always thought that Oakland County to Chicago, Buffalo, Pittsburg or Cleveland
might work. I would use apx 30 pax aircraft... perhaps a Dornier turboprop.

I thought that same thing for years, however FNT is nearby. It doesn't help when PTK's manager promotes FNT as the commercial airport of the area. I talked to him a few years ago at one of the PTK open houses and I asked him about PTK being a good place for a commercial airport, its got the runways and the executive terminal could easily be turned into a small airline terminal at least for regional jet operation and turboprops, but he said that is what FNT is for and that they promote FNT for people in Oakland County instead of DTW.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 19):
If any airport in Michigan could support a Cape Air type operation, it would be Oakland Troy. Oakland Troy is within walking distance of Birmingham and the office parks along Big Beaver Road, and less than fifteen minutes drive from Bloomfield Hills or Auburn Hills. Because the airport is so small, a passenger living in Birmingham could literally drive from Birmingham to Oakland Troy, clear security, and fly to Chicago in less time than it would take them to drive from Birmingham to DTW, park, clear security, and walk to their gate at DTW.

However, the NIMBYs in Birmingham and Troy would be so apopleptic about the prospect of even quasi scheduled air service at Oakland Troy that they would do everything they could to stop the plans dead in their tracks.

When I started reading this, I thought the NIMBYs too, but see you did touch on it. Remember, that those planes would be flying over some of the richest people in the state, if not the world. They hear airline service they would freak out because most are too ignorant to know the difference between a Cessna 402 and a DC-9. They would be thinking big noisy jets would over fly their home. I have seen small jets at Oakland Troy like Citations etc.


I think a PTK - to Northern Mich would work well seasonally - however, the cities would change through the seasons

Summer: People wanting to fly back and forth to places like Charlevoix, Traverse City, Petosky to their cottages up there. A lot of the rich people of Oakland County have cottages and resorts up there, that they may not want to do a 4-5 hour drive to

Winter: Ski resorts Boyne Mountain etc

Fall: Hunting trips more to Alpena, Oscoda area, as well as the U.P.

Spring would probably be slow season.

I also could see a Day Jet type operation working for this. If it was people with money travelling to these places, I don't see why someone wouldn't shell out $400 or so for an air taxi to these places. It is working down here in Florida with Day Jet and we have pretty good freeways too.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2984 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 19):
If any airport in Michigan could support a Cape Air type operation, it would be Oakland Troy. Oakland Troy is within walking distance of Birmingham and the office parks along Big Beaver Road, and less than fifteen minutes drive from Bloomfield Hills or Auburn Hills. Because the airport is so small, a passenger living in Birmingham could literally drive from Birmingham to Oakland Troy, clear security, and fly to Chicago in less time than it would take them to drive from Birmingham to DTW, park, clear security, and walk to their gate at DTW.

However, the NIMBYs in Birmingham and Troy would be so apopleptic about the prospect of even quasi scheduled air service at Oakland Troy that they would do everything they could to stop the plans dead in their tracks.

When I started reading this, I thought the NIMBYs too, but see you did touch on it. Remember, that those planes would be flying over some of the richest people in the state, if not the world. They hear airline service they would freak out because most are too ignorant to know the difference between a Cessna 402 and a DC-9. They would be thinking big noisy jets would over fly their home. I have seen small jets at Oakland Troy like Citations etc.

There have been several fatal general aviation accidents at Oakland Troy in the past. I'll never forget the day in the mid 1980s when the principal of Birmingham Seaholm High School came on the PA system just before the end of the school day, announcing "due to an airplane crash, Maple Road (15 Mile) is closed between Adams and Coolidge due to an airplane crash, and (school) busses are being rerouted." A private aircraft had lost power on takeoff and crashed into the parking lot of an apartment complex at the northwest corner of Maple and Coolidge - although the pilot died, fortunately no one on the ground was hurt. There was also a fatal general aviation accident southeast of Oakland Troy in the late 1970s, and I'm sure there have been others.

All of these accidents would be dredged up if any airline tried to start scheduled service out of Oakland Troy, and the Birmingham Eccentric would have breathless headlines like "lives at risk if airline service is allowed!!!!!!!!!", even if the aircraft used on the airline service are smaller, and make less noise, than the business aircraft already using Oakland Troy.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

I haven't been by Oakland Troy Airport in ages, what is the largest aircraft you currently see there? My old girlfriend lived across from Borders Books off of Woodward and I recall seeing Citations and King Airs there.

User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3575 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2918 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 21):
Wow, I wasn't aware that Cape Air flew anywhere besides Mass and Florida

www.capeair.com

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 16):
Like I said before, though, the Indiana routes are not going well for Cape Air.

I too can confirm this rumor as being alive and well in the Cape Air world



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
25 PSU.DTW.SCE : I remember when I was little (late 80's/early 90's) when a small plane didn't make it off the end of tehe runway at Oakland-Troy and ended up across C
26 Luv2cattlecall : Doesn't NW have a flight from Flint to DTW...in an A320? And entire 52 miles driving lol
27 Flyf15 : None of those passengers are just flying that route. They're connecting in DTW to far off destinations.
28 Hjulicher : You are perhaps correct as the UP is mostly Finish people, and I think Marquette gets a once yearly Finair flight for the Finish Festival up there. I
29 PSU.DTW.SCE : As the other person said, these routes LAN/MBS/FNT-DTW are not for the local traffic, they are entirely meant to feed connections at DTW. People pref
30 NASCARAirforce : Is there still an Amtrack running between Pontiac and Downtown Detroit for local travel?
31 DTWAGENT : A few years ago, someone tryed something like Cape Air. I work for about a year and then they closed down. LAN was their base also. NW or DL now has a
32 WA707atMSP : I flew Cape Air EVV-IND last month, and it was a LOT of fun. Cape Air normally flies their C402s with just one pilot, but both the pilot's and co pil
33 Splitz : Cape Air is also using at least two ATR's that I know of. Can the Michigan airports handle something that big?
34 Jkarp2112 : If they flew to the large cities over lake michigan already covered by the bigs at a cheaper price I would fly them. Example - GRR - ORD/MKE/MSP The p
35 Isitsafenow : Naaaww......we're all B1900 and twin Beech's with a couple of Amphibs here and there. safe
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