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Accidents And Incidents At Sun N Fun April 13 2008  
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9559 times:

I was at Sun N Fun today and several incidents including a fatal crash happened.

First a Piper Seneca II landed on Runway 27R (which is normally a taxiway, but used as a runway during this event) and its nose gear collapsed. The plane continued rolling and the engines weren't cut right away as the prop blades were striking the pavement. There was an overkill in emergency response as about 10 cops on motorcycles followed by three suburbans and more motorcycles looking like a Presidential motorcade as well as several fire trucks and ambulances - no injuries, I believe two men on board. Hazmat workers responded in hazmat suits as oil from the right engine had sprayed all over the front right of the plane and onto the ground. All airport operations were halted for about a half an hour.

Within 40 minutes of the Seneca incident, while Seneca was still parked on the taxiway turn off point a Lancair took off and appeared the canopy came open, plane veered left and crashed into a woods about a half mile from the airport. Operations continued for several minutes after the crash before LAL finally shut the runways down to everyone, including Biplane rides and the LSA/ultralite air operations well south of the main field. Pilot of Lancair died.

Both the incident and the fatal crash occured before the air show

After the air show, a man taxiing in his homebuilt lost control of his plane while taxiing and put his plane into a ditch next to the taxiway, he was unharmed and very little damage was done to the aircraft.

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2808 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

Wow... These weeks have not been good for aviation, no matter how big or small the incident or crashes were, many jobs have been lost, and now a few lives.

-Matt



No info
User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1287 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9527 times:

Sad to hear about the Lancair pilot. At least there were no other injuries.

I guess you can expect these kinds of things when thousands of airplanes descent on a single airport. Hope it does not cast a cloud over the rest of the show.



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9478 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Thread starter):
There was an overkill in emergency response as about 10 cops on motorcycles followed by three suburbans and more motorcycles looking like a Presidential motorcade as well as several fire trucks and ambulances - no injuries, I believe two men on board.

That does not usually appear like a typical emergency response for a GA. Perhaps the person on board may have been a government/political official?


Regarding the Lancair incident, is this the first fatal accident in a long time at the S-N-F LAL?


User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1287 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9245 times:



Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 3):
That does not usually appear like a typical emergency response for a GA. Perhaps the person on board may have been a government/political official?

Probably not. More likely they had a load of first responders there since so many planes are arriving, so they might as well use them. Most GA accidents happen at small airports with few people hanging around, let alone police/paramedics.



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1933 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9167 times:

Yes not a good week for EAA attendees...There were also 2 crashes earlier in the week with aircraft enroute to the show..One was fatal and occured about 10 miles East of the airport, with the aircraft crashing just off of Interstate 4. The pilot who was the only passenger onboard did not survive. The other crash occured just outside Orlando as 2 homebuilt seaplanes were taking off entoute to the show from nearby Lake Jessup. One of the aircraft first believed to have hit an alligator on takeoff broke apart, however it was determned that mechanical failure led to the crash seriously injuring the pilot...As a sidenote the other plane circled around and landed, The pilot pulled the other injured pilot out of allligator infested water with a total of 6 gators circling nearby...After the injured pilot was safely secured to his disable craft, the rescue pilot taxied his plane at a high rate of speed to his dock, got on his personal boat and raced out to the injured pilot and got him safely to shore where rescue personel took over...The other pilot drove to the show. with his son..

User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8785 times:



Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 3):
That does not usually appear like a typical emergency response for a GA. Perhaps the person on board may have been a government/political official?

It was a couple of old men from what it appeared in my pictures.

The response was slow - no emergency personnel appeared for almost ten minutes other than the ATC volunteers in red shirts that direct the aircraft where to turn on taxiways etc. Then 4 fire trucks and 2 ambulances showed up, 3-4 cop cars, 15 cops on motorbikes, 3-4 suburbans with people in it, a flatbed truck with attached crane to remove aircraft etc. Then most of the cops just stood around and talked like it was a coffee break, they were bored and now they got a little action - little did they know they would have a moreserious emergency to respond to in 40 minutes.

Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 3):
Regarding the Lancair incident, is this the first fatal accident in a long time at the S-N-F LAL?

No, there was a crash last year the monday before the show when people were flying in when a small experimental plane carrying two men from Ohio crashed into a barn about 1/2 mile east of the airport killing both pilot and passenger

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
were also 2 crashes earlier in the week with aircraft enroute to the show..

There was also a crash in Rotorworld earlier this week when an autogyro went down after rotor struck ground - however I think the pilot walked away with barely a scratch.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8760 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Thread starter):
Within 40 minutes of the Seneca incident, while Seneca was still parked on the taxiway turn off point a Lancair took off and appeared the canopy came open, plane veered left and crashed into a woods about a half mile from the airport.

RIP Lancair pilot, as you fly off into the sunset to the West, never to be seen again...  tombstone  I hope that a single act of carelessness didn't hasten your appointment with destiny.  Sad



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8627 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
RIP Lancair pilot, as you fly off into the sunset to the West, never to be seen again... I hope that a single act of carelessness didn't hasten your appointment with destiny.

The NTSB hasn't listed the cause of the crash yet - but the canopy being open might be a likely factor


Big version: Width: 1200 Height: 800 File size: 364kb
Lancair taking off with canopy partially open just a mere seconds before crash




Big version: Width: 1200 Height: 800 File size: 405kb
Smoke about a minute after impact


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8608 times:

The other plane, the Seneca - fortunately no one was hurt in this plane (well except the plane)



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/Bartuzzinni/SenecaII.jpg

Landing with blades striking pavement

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/Bartuzzinni/SenecaIIb.jpg

Engines still running, oil on side of plane

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/Bartuzzinni/SenecaIIc.jpg

ATC volunteers, the first responders

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/Bartuzzinni/SenecaIId.jpg

Just a "few" of the emergency responders, the 20 or so cops are all off to the side out of the picture in a group talking about last nights game or something. The two elderly gentlemen in shorts are the pilot and passenger, obviously ok

[Edited 2008-04-14 22:27:40]

User currently offlineGrouchoDuke From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

Hey everyone, the pilot of the Lancair was a good friend of mine & I'm looking for some help. I'm trying to track down the photographer of the above images for the pilot's family (same photos linked to below). I've tried to search using the Photo Search Engine here, but no luck. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks for the help.

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...d=536888751&filename=phpxexrtQ.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.fil...d=536888751&filename=phpK4NRaT.jpg

[Edited 2008-04-16 11:10:19]

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8319 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):
The NTSB hasn't listed the cause of the crash yet - but the canopy being open might be a likely factor

How does an open canopy on a Lancair affect the aircraft aerodynamically? Since the hinge is obviously on the firewall end, I'd think it would act like a popped door on a certified single, where it would open to a point, and then become aerodynamically stabilized in a partially open position. I had a friend who had the same thing happen in an intro flight with an instructor in an RV-6 with a forward hinged canopy, the canopy slammed fully open (which, to me, defies any reasonable explanation  Wink ) and they just flew the pattern and landed after their brief open cockpit time. I think the canopy was damaged beyond repair and had to be replaced after that incident...[thread creep]I wonder if this had anything to do with the later Grumman AA-5 style rolling canopy that Van's introduced for the RV-6, or if it was to facilitate easier ground ventilation for owners...  scratchchin 



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineArffguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8040 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
...[thread creep]I wonder if this had anything to do with the later Grumman AA-5 style rolling canopy that Van's introduced for the RV-6, or if it was to facilitate easier ground ventilation for owners...

No, the sliding canopy was introduced because builders like the "cool" factor of it and, you are correct, that you can taxi or sit idling at places like Sun-n-Fun without baking to death. Plus, the tilt-up canopy tends to be easier to damage by accident. But once you have flown in both models, I think the tilt-up wins. It has better forward visibility and makes getting behind the instrument panel a whole lot easier. It's one of the "never ending arguments" of the RV crowd.

Canopies and doors popping open tend to be distractions. I know RV's have flown with the canopy open, Lancairs I don't.

[Edited 2008-04-16 17:18:32]


Time to spare, go by air.
User currently offlineMoMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Thanks for the pictures, I was out there on Saturday and nothing of major interest happened (thankfully). I will never fly to S-N-F because of all the crashes and people not following directions, it really gives all of GA a bad name.


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineAllegiantAir From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7934 times:



Quoting GrouchoDuke (Reply 10):

I'm guessing those are NASCARAirForce's pictures, since they are in his profile.



Live to Fly.
User currently offlineGrouchoDuke From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7923 times:



Quoting AllegiantAir (Reply 14):
I'm guessing those are NASCARAirForce's pictures, since they are in his profile.

Thanks - I sent him a message here earlier today. Hopefully he took 'em.


User currently offlineJogales From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7875 times:

I remember seeing this plane parked in the homebuilt area on Saturday and thinking how beautiful it was. My prayers are with the family and friends of the pilot.

Josh



-
User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1933 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

GrouchoDuke: I have NascarAirForce e mail address and I have e mailed him letting him know your trying to get ahold of him....

User currently offlineGrouchoDuke From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7775 times:



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 17):
I have NascarAirForce e mail address and I have e mailed him letting him know your trying to get ahold of him....

Thank you!!


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7545 times:

Back to the main question, how would the popped canopy contribute to this accident? I'm no aeronautical engineer but it doesn't look like it would be so dangerous.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7443 times:

Grouchoduke - I responded to your message this morning. I am sorry about your friend's loss - these are the kinds of things I hate seeing at airshows. This is only the second crash I witnessed out of 100+ airshows in my 33 years. I hope it will be the last one I witness. The Lakeland Ledger had an article on the pilot the other day that told about him and what he does - he worked for Gulfstream and I think had something to do with research on supersonic business jets.

Quoting MoMan (Reply 13):
Thanks for the pictures, I was out there on Saturday and nothing of major interest happened (thankfully). I will never fly to S-N-F because of all the crashes and people not following directions, it really gives all of GA a bad name.

Well, one of the Thunderbirds had a bird strike on Saturday, thats why it landed early. I was out there both weekend days.

I was also out there Monday to watch the arrivals. You are right, people do not follow instructions. There were guys next to me with radios listening to the tower as i was getting pictures of the planes landing. Many were not landing at the orange circle on Runway 9L (the taxiway), most were landing way to early finally the guy in the tower got frustrated at this pilot in a black Rockwell Commander and said "Next time read your Arrival Procedures". Then some guy in some strange looking red highwing tail dragger homebuilt, veers way off course, going nowhere near the blue roof FBO that they are supposed to follow in the arrival procedures, then lands at the threshold of Runway 9R (the actual Runway 9), then taxis off and is about to taxi onto Runway 9L (the taxiway being used as a runway for arrivals). The tower is yelling at him to stop and several redshirt ATC volunteers on motorcycles, 4 wheelers and even some guys in Suburbans run out there to chew him out.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 19):
Back to the main question, how would the popped canopy contribute to this accident? I'm no aeronautical engineer but it doesn't look like it would be so dangerous.

I'm not with the NTSB, so I am just offering a theory, but in my picture I have of him taxiing (which I did not post on here because it shows the pilot - however the FAA office has it because the FAA originally believed that there were two people on board, but it shows that it was just the pilot on board) his canopy is closed, on take off it is open. There was a bit of a crosswind that day. He might not have realized his canopy was open until he got up a bit and heard the wind - it might have been a distraction and he tried to close it perhaps leaning too much on the left rudder pedal - as one witness near me said the plane veered to the left suddenly. I didn't see him go down. My back was to the crash. I just took a picture of everything that was passing by me. Some guy next to me says "Holy Shit, look at the smoke I think someone went down". I tell him just a second - as I was trying to get a couple of Temco Swifts taking off. Many of us were in the dark as to if a crash happened. We were thinking it may have been a fire in the campground nearby as operations continued a good 5 minutes after the crash - until all operations ceased - arrivals had to go around, departures stopped, the ultralites stopped and even the biplane giving rides was waved back before he would depart with passengers. The crash happened about 11am. I did not know for sure it was a crash until I talked to the FAA and showed them my pictures at around 3pm and they verified the plane that went down was N1177M.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6407 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 7423 times:



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 19):
Back to the main question, how would the popped canopy contribute to this accident? I'm no aeronautical engineer but it doesn't look like it would be so dangerous.

The way popped doors usually contribute to accidents is that they provide a huge distraction and create lots of chaos like noise and maps and charts getting sucked out...some people feel that ending the distraction takes precedence over aviating, I suppose. The canopy might actually have aerodynamic importance in the Lancair (meaning: change it's position from where it belongs while airborne, and something bad could happen), and I don't know enough about it to say if it does or not.

Obviously, the canopy getting blown completely open in flight, as happened to my friend (see post #11 above) would create quite a distraction!



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineGrouchoDuke From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7243 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 20):
I responded to your message this morning. I am sorry about your friend's loss

Thanks - I just wrote you back. He did work for Gulfstream & led their Supersonic Business Jet work. Wonderful guy & a terrible loss. Thanks for talking to the FAA/NTSB about it.

As for the canopy...I don't know. I have an RV-6 & it's not a big deal if the canopy opens in flight. Each plane will handle differently though. Tough to say.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7046 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 21):
The way popped doors usually contribute to accidents is that they provide a huge distraction and create lots of chaos like noise and maps and charts getting sucked out...some people feel that ending the distraction takes precedence over aviating, I suppose. The canopy might actually have aerodynamic importance in the Lancair (meaning: change it's position from where it belongs while airborne, and something bad could happen), and I don't know enough about it to say if it does or not.

I don't think it would have come off in flight - since it is a canopy that tilts forward. However when I gave the FAA the pictures, one of them got on the phone and started calling people to look for a canopy.

My theory is, it caused a distraction and as he tried to close it, he accidentally stepped on the left rudder pedal causing the plane to veer suddenly left like one witness that stood by me said that saw it go down and also as to why the plane crashed well left of the runway alignment.

One eerie thing is - if you type in N1177M on google, you also get a Cessna 172K that crashed in 2002 that used that number. This crash was due to fuel exhaustion. I don't think that number should be used anymore for aircraft registrations.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12708 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7014 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 23):
My theory is, it caused a distraction and as he tried to close it, he accidentally stepped on the left rudder pedal causing the plane to veer suddenly left like one witness that stood by me said that saw it go down and also as to why the plane crashed well left of the runway alignment.

All that would be needed is to let airspeed drop, then a stall / spin which would probably not be recoverable at low altitude.

Canopy issues have unfortunately caused fatalities in the sailplane community. Here's one I know of, from the NTSB database:

Quote:
During takeoff for a glider tow operation, the towplane and the glider both became airborne. An FAA Inspector witnessed the takeoff and
said his attention was drawn to the 'erratic pitch changes' of the glider. The glider pilot's canopy was open, and the pilot repeatedly
attempted to close the canopy. Pitch changes and climbs above the tow plane accompanied each attempt to close the canopy. As the
towrope reached a vertical position, the towplane struck the ground, nosed over, and came to rest inverted. The towrope separated, and
the glider continued past the towplane, rolled left to an inverted position and impacted the ground.

Posting this so we all remember the "C for Canopy" in our checklists...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 KELPkid : Don't forget, too, that with an American engine (or at least one that rotates counterclockwise as viewed from the front ), the aircraft will also nat
26 KELPkid : I'm glad the US registry isn't like the UK registry, and registrations can be recycled...
27 NASCARAirforce : I was watching other Lancair Legacies of similar models take off later that day. They have more horsepower it appears than a C172 on take off as they
28 Post contains links GrouchoDuke : This Legacy had an IO-550 in it...310hp. The preliminary NTSB report is out now. It sounds like they're looking into engine issues, although they do
29 KELPkid : Ya think? C-172 standard engine=Lycoming O-320 4 cylinder 150 or 160 HP (new production ones, before some little kiddie who flys a 199x or 200x model
30 Type-Rated : I was always taught that most aircraft doors won't close while you are in flight due to aerodynamic pressures. Just fly the aircraft first, ignore the
31 Mir : The more horsepower an engine produces, the more p-factor it's going to create, and the more left-turning tendency the plane is going to have, regard
32 Post contains links KELPkid : I respectfully disagree. P-factor is specifically caused by the ascending propeller blade being almost flat in relation to the aircraft's relative lo
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