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Egypt Air 990 And Lauda Air 004 Crash  
User currently offlineTy134A From Austria, joined Apr 2008, 157 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17851 times:

Hello!

I have heard some time ago, that the two crashed 767 were, according to their construction numbers, that the Lauda Air plane was next off the construction line after the Egypt Air 767. The construction numbers, if not mistaken, are for the NG 767: 24628/283 and for the MS 767: 24542/282.

Now I know that the inveestigations on the crashes have been completed, and according to these there is no connection between the two crashes. But still I wonder if maybe any other planes following in construction crashed. Was there even closely looked at a connection between the to accidents? Any thoughts on that?

greetings, Ty134A


flown on:TU3,TU5,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,A40,YK4,YK2,AN4,A26,A28,A81,L11,D1C,M11,AB4,313,342,345,703,722,732,741,74L,J31,F50
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 17793 times:

Very intersting coincidence...I never knew that.

That said, one crash obviously was of a mechanical origin.

The other was a demented lunatic who decided to take his problems out on a couple hundred innocent people and a perfectly good Boeing.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17441 times:



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
Very intersting coincidence...I never knew that.

Freaky, never knew that as well.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
one crash obviously was of a mechanical origin.

True.

Though EgyptAir (and of course its lawyers) to this day contend that there was a structural fault in the aircraft's elevators-- though, that doesn't explain the pre-dive prayers; nor the pre-dive shutting off of both engines; nor the fact that the elevators' response was later shown to be directly in sync with yoke inputs, even to the point of splitting their direction due to the opposing inputs from Habashi and Batouti.

It's very disconcerting that that airline, 9 years later, still won't accept what every other nation/entity involved has determined to be a rather definitive conclusion.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2260 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17148 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 2):
It's very disconcerting that that airline, 9 years later, still won't accept what every other nation/entity involved has determined to be a rather definitive conclusion.

Which is exactly why I refuse to fly with Egyptair. It appears to me that they don't take this question seriously. It appears that they're not really trying to find out the truth, so that they can take steps to avert similar incidents in the future.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineZTagged From Niger, joined Oct 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16857 times:

Now that's just eerie. I doubt (Okay, as far as I know) there was any connection between their fatal incidents, but still very eerie.


Something awful.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16772 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
Which is exactly why I refuse to fly with Egyptair.

Agreed.

What's really tragic about this, is that it's tough to recall any tangible measures that have been taken to prevent pilot-on-duty suicide... I'd say this crash was hard evidence that the procedures in place are not sufficient, regardless as to the (lack of frequency) in occurence.


User currently offlineYamatthey From Switzerland, joined Aug 2005, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16702 times:

Interesting coincidence, I never knew that before.

Lauda Air Boeing 767-3Z9ER crashed on May 26, 1991 due to a thrust reverser deployment of the number 1 engine when flying near Ban Nong Rong (Uthai Thani Province), Thailand.

Egyptair Boeing 767-366ER crashed on October 31, 1999 due to human factor (politically: crashed due to technical failure).

Big version: Width: 776 Height: 600 File size: 84kb

Source: NTSB investigation files


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16509 times:

I flew on MS 3 times on a trip to Egypt in 2006 and had no issues with them.

However, the trip would not have feasible by alternate carrier, so I also had little option.

Personally, I did have doubts about them following MS990, having the plane crashed deliberately is bad enough, the fact that MS and many others in Egypt practically blamed Martians for the crash only made things worse.

You can not solve a problem until you admit that you HAVE a problem.


User currently online7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 720 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 16509 times:
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The two crashes are definately not related.
Just a weird coincidence.
The Lauda crash forced changes in the T/R system - the Egypt Air aircraft would of had to have these incorporated.
It was a good conspiracy theory though!  Smile


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15446 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
so that they can take steps to avert similar incidents in the future.

Nor really does anyone appear to be.
Seriously: what, by any nation/airline/CAA, has been done or changed; in order to further prevent the likelihood/occurence of on-duty pilot suicide?


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8093 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15333 times:

I seem to remember it was in the early news reports in the days after the event, because the respective accidents happened a similar number of minutes after takeoff, and a thrust-reversal deployment was the no 1 suspected cause initially. You may not recall, but there was even a press conference by, I think, the NTSB, with schematic diagrams and god knows what, all relating to the 767 thrust reverse system. I watched it on CNN.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 9):
Seriously: what, by any nation/airline/CAA, has been done or changed; in order to further prevent the likelihood/occurence of on-duty pilot suicide?

What can you do? MS990 wasn't a one-off, there was that Silkair 737 that crashed in Indonesia, that was captain suicide. Also there was a crazy situation in N Africa or somewhere, where a disgruntled pilot took off in an ATR and after flying around for an hour or so, crashed it into the airline's other two ATRs, thereby destroying the airline's entire fleet. Where was that, Morocco? Or further south, like Zambia or somewhere. Not to mention, of course the FedEx near-disaster over Memphis with that DC10.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15267 times:



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 10):
Also there was a crazy situation in N Africa or somewhere, where a disgruntled pilot took off in an ATR and after flying around for an hour or so, crashed it into the airline's other two ATRs, thereby destroying the airline's entire fleet. Where was that, Morocco? Or further south, like Zambia or somewhere

Botswana


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15202 times:



Quoting Ty134A (Thread starter):
Now I know that the inveestigations on the crashes have been completed, and according to these there is no connection between the two crashes. But still I wonder if maybe any other planes following in construction crashed. Was there even closely looked at a connection between the to accidents? Any thoughts on that?

Pretty much zero connection, other than the coincidental lineup of the production order. Even if you buy the idea that EgyptAir was a mechanical failure, the hypothetical failure was in totally separate and different system.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 2):
It's very disconcerting that that airline, 9 years later, still won't accept what every other nation/entity involved has determined to be a rather definitive conclusion.

In some slight defense of EgyptAir, the NTSB did some very strange things during that investigation which call the professionalism and bias of the final report into doubt. However, I haven't seen anything that credibly casts doubt on the actual cause of the crash.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 9):
what, by any nation/airline/CAA, has been done or changed; in order to further prevent the likelihood/occurence of on-duty pilot suicide?

As long as you've got humans in the cockpit, not much you can do. Thanks to the post-9/11 armored cockpit doors it's actually a bigger risk...if one flight crew locks the door when the other one is in the bathroom, they don't have a chance to try and prevent the disaster.

Tom.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15032 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
In some slight defense of EgyptAir, the NTSB did some very strange things during that investigation which call the professionalism and bias of the final report into doubt.

Almost any investigative entity will appear to be acting strangely from the outside during an investigation. There is always much that they can't tell you in order to protect the investigation. But it all comes out in the end.

The final report notes all the competing hypotheses and basically systematically shoots them all down one by one. It's pretty hard to argue with the conclusion.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15004 times:



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
What's really tragic about this, is that it's tough to recall any tangible measures that have been taken to prevent pilot-on-duty suicide... I'd say this crash was hard evidence that the procedures in place are not sufficient, regardless as to the (lack of frequency) in occurence.

These two crashes are considered by many observers to have been caused by pilot suicide attempts. Ironically, all the crew in the JL DC-8 incident survived but 24 of 166 passengers died. The captain had a record of psychiatric problems and was institutionalized after the crash.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19820209-0
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19971219-0


User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14931 times:

The Lauda Air crash was particularly sad...
Niki Lauda, the famous Formula One racing driver and owner of the Airline (himself a fully qualified 737 pilot at the time) went personally to the remote Thai jungle crash site and was instrumental in finding the actual part or part(s) which pointed to the inflight thrust reverser deployment - the established cause of the inflight breakup. He quite emotionally announced on the media (I remember it well) at the time that if the cause of the major loss of life on his 767 was found to have been the fault of his staff or his airline, he would shut his company down in shame. He found relief when no fault was established in how the crew had operated the ill fated flight and that there was no fault in how the aircraft had been maintained.

The flight had originally departed from Hong Kong Kai Tak, had just made a stop at Bangkok Don Muang and was on it's way back to Vienna. Date 26th May 1991.

The aircraft was OE-LAV "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart."

Correct me if I am wrong, aren't OE-LAU and OE-LAW still in service to this day or at least until very recently?

- I have just now looked them up, I can't find OE-LAU but OE-LAW operates for Austrian and crosses the Atlantic on the VIE-JFK run regularly. In fact OE-LAW operated AUA87 VIE-JFK last Friday and back again to VIE as AUA88 on Saturday morning - surely all will agree that this is a wonderful tribute to still be flying seventeen years after it's sister ship was sadly destroyed with such loss of life. To be precise, 213 passengers and 10 crew.

In fact I have now found that OE-LAW was delivered in the year after the crash of OE-LAV, maybe LAW was LAV's replacement?


User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2316 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14846 times:

I must admit that is defiantly interesting!

I would also like to say this too, although what is thought to be said of the F.O's actions on MS 990, I feel bad for all the other MS pilot who have to get a bad rep because of supposedly what the F.O. did. Are there any MS pilots on here anyways?



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13524 times:



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 16):
the other MS pilot who have to get a bad rep

Don't believe anyone has shown all that much of any disdain for MS pilots, but rather the airline's management and nation--- both of whom refused to even consider the possibility of the conclusion that's been reached by essentially everyone of any repute, involved.


User currently offlineDavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 12624 times:



Quoting Awthompson (Reply 15):
aren't OE-LAU and OE-LAW

-LAU has been taken out of service, -LAW is still going strong.

I had my first Transatlantic experiences on -LAU in 1992 on a VIE-MUC-LAX-MUC-VIE roundtrip. What an era that was...



DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
User currently offlineTy134A From Austria, joined Apr 2008, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12418 times:



Quoting Awthompson (Reply 15):
he would shut his company down in shame

Unfortunately, working in this business in Austria, Lauda Air always was known to be a tough fighter against the mighty, state owned Austrian Airlines. But RUMOR has it that in financially hard times Niki Lauda did not take some issues siriously, for keeping the costs down. The only reason Austrians kept flying Lauda Air was his name and his huge popularity, which to this day is the reason why there is a "Lauda Air" branding within the Austrian fleet. "Insiders" see him differently, he is said to be rude to his employees and does not pay well. Maybe somebody working for him could confirm this. I personally met him 3 times (in business) and had different impressions, non of them really very convincing.

The only thing I really enjoyed was, when the Lauda Air was about to be bought by Austrian (due to the economical situation it was in I think), he quickly ordered a bunch of 777, which nobody new what they were good for, but (again) rumor has it that this gave him some start up capital for his Fly Niki. Now Austrian operates entirely Boeing Aircraft on long haul flights, therefore got rid of the Airbus 330/340 type.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 15):
aren't OE-LAU and OE-LAW still in service to this day

If not changed recently, yes they both are. I always loved the Lauda Air 767 fleet, it was really funny, they mostly had no commonality inside, as some of them were bought from other Airlines, and from his basic equippment 767, only the two are left. Now Austrian is if I am not mistaken, one of the launch customers for the winglets for the 767, I bet they got used to their 330 to well over the time from an economical point of view!

I remember flying on AV when I was a child and it was a very special experience, because it was my first visit to a flight deck... what I was allowed to do in those days would not be possible today.

But having said this, I still feel bad for the people lost in these accidents, my thoughts are with them and their families!



flown on:TU3,TU5,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,A40,YK4,YK2,AN4,A26,A28,A81,L11,D1C,M11,AB4,313,342,345,703,722,732,741,74L,J31,F50
User currently offlineFly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12314 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
Which is exactly why I refuse to fly with Egyptair.

So you would never fly with Singapore Airlines either then? Given a Silk Air pilot was infact proven to have committed suicide in the crash over Indonesia.


User currently offlineGBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11578 times:



Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 20):
So you would never fly with Singapore Airlines either then? Given a Silk Air pilot was infact proven to have committed suicide in the crash over Indonesia.

Did Singapore Airlines refuse to admit that the pilot committed suicide - as Egypt Air did?


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11202 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
It appears to me that they don't take this question seriously.



Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 20):
So you would never fly with Singapore Airlines either then? Given a Silk Air pilot was infact proven to have committed suicide in the crash over Indonesia.

When things started to look not good for SQ, did the Singaporean civil aviation authority gave up on its professionalism and instead of looking for facts they basically ganged up with the airline against Boeing (and NTSB) becoming its accomplice in denying facts + plotting bizarre and laughably absurd conspiracy theories as was the case with Egyptian CAA and Egypt Air?


User currently offlineFly2CHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10479 times:



Quoting GBan (Reply 21):
Did Singapore Airlines refuse to admit that the pilot committed suicide - as Egypt Air did?

Has it been proven beyond reasonable doubt that the Egypt Air pilot committed suicide? Does that explain the violent pitching of the aircraft up and down before it crashed? Certainly doesn't seem like something a pilot who wanted to crash his plane would do (a la Silk Air)


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7566 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10356 times:

It would make sense if one pilot was pushing one way and the other was pulling the other way.

25 OHLHD : It happens that I know several former Lauda employees and most of them praise how great everything was back then but he paid very very low money. Peo
26 Awthompson : I would most certainly fly with Singapore Airlines but would not be quite so confident with Egypt Air and not specifically due to any fear of a pilot
27 GBan : Yes, indeed. Again, yes. The investigation report does explain what happened and offers proof (cvr).
28 YYZYYT : Funny, I see an obvious coincidence: both are cases of 767's that broke up in mid air due to steep dives, such that stresses exceeded design capacity
29 ConcordeBoy : The elevators were found to have directly responded to yoke input, including splitting their direction at one point... due to the fact that one pilot
30 Boeing747_600 : Could you elaborate? Well, its a fairly logical inference, even if one is determined to believe otherwise. The fact is that the NTSB report proved be
31 Hmmmm... : How can anyone even suggest that these two disasters had any common cause when the CVRs tell the story of each. That's why we have CVRs.
32 Tdscanuck : Although that's generally true, it's not really what I meant. NTSB did some stuff during that investigation that was atypical for them and against no
33 QFYMML : I don't have the source with me here right now but I believe the NTSC report into the MI185 crash found the cause could not be determined. It's split
34 Greenjet : As pointed out in another post this was in Botswana but there was also a Royal Air Maroc ATR that crashed in 1994 near Agadir that was deemed to be p
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