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Keeping THF Open (vol. 3)  
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

Yes mates, there will be a referendum over the fate of THF on April the 27th. The local government wants to close it down and make it a park, but a lot of people are rallying for it and got the referendum started. The voting ballot looks like this:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21666.jpg

I already voted, it can be done via mail, and I'm not going to be here on the 27th. Some people started a jealousy/loser campaign against it. Here are their "arguments":
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21668.jpg
Text says: "Airport for the super-rich? We won't let them take us on the arm." (Which means: We won't let them fool us.)

Well, I'm not super-rich, and I flew from THF.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21669.jpg
Text says: "I ain't paying for a VIP-airport".

I ain't no VIP and I flew from THF, besides, the airport is supposed to generate money, so the VIPs are paying to us.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21670.jpg

Text says: "Im flying on Berlin (iow: I like Berlin), but not from THF".

Yes granny, you don't fly TO Berlin from THF. What is the point?

The pro side doesn't have entertaining placards either:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21672.jpg
"I'm a citizen of Berlin". (Like Kennedy said in German).

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21671.jpg
"Listen to your heart, not the mayor."

OK.....

Anyway, I hope I can continue to look out of my window like this:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/Thorben81/SSL21665.jpg
(Screeners?)

---------------

Columba and I went to THF yesterday and took the flight with the DC-3. Thanks to the captain who allowed us a big discount for not taking the champagne and watching the movie. (We didn't want that anyway). Flying in a DC-3 from THF is great, it is just sad I didn't have the camera with me. I'll post the safety card once I have it scanned. (A DC-3 safety card!!)

Long live THF!

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Best of luck to those behind the "NEIN! Zum Flugbetrieb in Tempelhof" campaign.
Sure hope they can pull it off


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2452 times:



Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 1):
Best of luck to those behind the "NEIN! Zum Flugbetrieb in Tempelhof" campaign.
Sure hope they can pull it off

And why do you do that?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2451 times:



Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
besides, the airport is supposed to generate money, so the VIPs are paying to us.

Agreed, but people don´t want to understand that, other cities would die to have that but Berlin rather stays poor and thinks it is sexy this way (quote from the mayor:"Berlin is poor but sexy")
Also it is not only super-rich or VIPs flying to THF. It is the average person travelling, it is private pilot with his Cessna 152, it is the sick person in an ambulance jet etc....



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2368 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Agreed, but people don´t want to understand that, other cities would die to have that but Berlin rather stays poor and thinks it is sexy this way (quote from the mayor:"Berlin is poor but sexy")
Also it is not only super-rich or VIPs flying to THF. It is the average person travelling, it is private pilot with his Cessna 152, it is the sick person in an ambulance jet etc....

Indeed, we'll see how many people will fall for that jealousy trick and how many have enough brain to see how valuable THF is.


User currently offlineLindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2292 times:
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Hi All,

So the plebiscite is tomorrow. I've kept an eye on the news but haven't seen or read anything suggesting what the likely result will be. Has anyone taken serious polls? Is Tempelhof likely to be saved?

If I could vote, I'd vote to keep THF open. I know the demand isn't really there right now, but I think Berlin would come to regret the closure fairly soon down the road (say in ten or twenty years).

Here's an English language article for those interested in the issues and the history of Tempelhof:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,549685,00.html

Cheers,

Edward


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2479 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

I absolutely hate it when the "poor population/people vs. super rich" card is used in an electoral campaign; what is even more sad is the amount of people who eventually buy into that crap.

Hopefully ein Ja tomorrow can guarantee the continued operation of this historical airport.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2258 times:



Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 5):
If I could vote, I'd vote to keep THF open. I know the demand isn't really there right now, but I think Berlin would come to regret the closure fairly soon down the road (say in ten or twenty years).

The demand is there but the incalculable future and the policy of the Berlin senate has scared many airlines away.
Interesting is that not THF or TXL have difficulties finding new airlines that want to fly there but SXF.
Without Easyjet SXF would be really bleaky. All the airlines that have left THF chose TXL over SXF (AB/DBA, LGW, LH/Eurowings etc...)



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2256 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Am I wrong or there are only scheduled flights of SN Brussels Airlines to / from Tempelhof?


El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 1 week ago) and read 2220 times:



Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 8):
Am I wrong or there are only scheduled flights of SN Brussels Airlines to / from Tempelhof?

There are a few more but not many.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2211 times:

A few facts:

The Berlin Senate wants to cut the accessability to Berlin by air from presently 122 slots per hour to 86 solts per houronce BBI becomes oeprational.

You have to digest that information, in a booming industry, the capital of the world's leading export nation cuts down on accessability. I guess to be able to do that, you have to be a qualified moron.

THF loses money, alright, the reason is, the real estate is mostly vacant. Investors, who wanted to take the financial obligation to maintain the facilities, have been turned away. Only income now is generated from leases and users fees.These leases will be terminated once the airport closes down, meaning, it will lose even more money. It will continue to do so, becauzse the buildings cannot be torn down, the airport is protected as a historical monument.

The Seante wants to build up part of it and turn another part into a park. There is no need for appartments in Berlin, many appartments are vacant now. A park costs money to maintain, money the city does not have.

Besides, THF was the lifeline to freedom nbetween 1948 and 1989. It was the only free access to the free west, people who fled communism could not go to West Germany by road, the only way was by air either BEA or PanAm. THF was one of the airfields that kept Berloin alive during the communist blockade.


The Senate (Socialist/Communist coalition wants to close down a historical monument Obvioulsy, that coalition is against freedom and THF must be a thorn oin their eyes.

One can only hope that sanity prevails and some miracle happens and THF is kept open as an airport.

--


One other little fact, with only one airport and limited slot capacity, the ILA will no longer be possible.

The airport managers and the Berloin politicians are running into this desaster open with open eyes.Idiots.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2587 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

If THF closes down, they'll regret it in the future. I don't understand this shortsightedness. It's like Berlin doesn't want to be what it truly is - a capital - but prefers to be some sort of very big provincial city.

THF could be a great airport if it were kept open and operated à la LCY. You could actually close down one of the runways (one would be enough really) and build that park there, to make everybody happy. THF has no future as a big international airport, I don't think anyone is claiming that. Now, as a business airport...

...for the super-rich? Nothing but cheap propaganda. Call it super-rich or whatever you like, the availability (or not) of a conveniently located business airport will determine the willingness (or not) for top corporations to establish themselves in the city.

I really hope the Berliners choose to keep THF.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

So I just came home from voting. I was the 50th person in my election office that has voted, I hope some more will follow, also I was the youngest person around all people there were 60 + - guess the younger people don´t really care and the Berlin Air Lift also means nothing anymore  Sad


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2075 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
The Senate (Socialist/Communist coalition wants to close down a historical monument Obvioulsy, that coalition is against freedom and THF must be a thorn oin their eyes.

Closing THF was a decision made in 1996 by the centre-right mayor Diepgen (CDU) and federal transportation minister Wissmann (CDU).


It was thought at the time that there was little chance to get a new airport at the SXF site through the courts unless it could be argued that in exchange THF and TXL would be closed thus significantly reducing noise emissions in other parts of the city while adding new noise to the South-East.

Attempts to keep THF open have already been "greeted" by the BBI/SXF opponents who announced new lawsuits to challenge the verdict that allowed the construction of BBI (result of a decade of legal proceedings) since that was based on the promise to close THF and TXL. In addition to this nuisance people in the neighborhood of THF have also announced their intention to sue if THF is kept open.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3522 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2059 times:



Quoting Wsp (Reply 13):

So, with other words, the decision is 12 years old. 12 years ago no Low Cost Carriers existed, the government wasn't in Berlin yet, and no one would have predicted that BBI takes until 2012 (probably much later) to be completed.

Why not adjust decisions when they prove to be wrong?


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2033 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 14):
Why not adjust decisions when they prove to be wrong?

If by that you mean that the additional capacity extension in BBI must be implemented sooner than originally planned, then I agree. I would hope that this is being looked into already.

Of all the different models that THF proponents talk about there is only the "keep it open indefinitely and increase traffic to old levels to have a chance to make some profits" model that would address rising traffic issues. It is obvious that this approach will inevitably lead to a new round of litigation and potentially a construction stop at BBI.

I also don't see why one would seek this kind of legal confrontation now. There is still TXL fully operational until the day BBI launches. If at that time capacity is an issue it should be much easier to argue, having solid passenger numbers available, that the court should allow TXL to operate for a few years longer until capacity at BBI has caught up.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3682 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

This no-campaign is just outrageous. I think that they have every right to campaign against it, but not like that.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2005 times:



Quoting Wsp (Reply 13):

Closing THF was a decision made in 1996 by the centre-right mayor Diepgen (CDU) and federal transportation minister Wissmann (CDU).

I know that. The current CDU heads want to revoke that decision and keep THF open. No politicaldecision is eternal. A newlyelected Senate can always override decisions of their predecessors. That is not even party bound. New situations require new thinking and new decisions. The system is called democracy.

That is exactly what we are talking about here and what today's referendum was all about.

..

Quoting Wsp (Reply 15):
If by that you mean that the additional capacity extension in BBI must be implemented sooner than originally planned, then I agree. I would hope that this is being looked into already

They haven't even got the financing of the current building wrapped up properly. See: DIE WELT Monday April 21, Berlin edition. "Banks withdraw credit approvals".

Meaning - the new airport on shaky grounds, but Wowereit wants to close THF, by all means, against any reason.



Quoting Wsp (Reply 15):

Of all the different models that THF proponents talk about there is only the "keep it open indefinitely and increase traffic to old levels to have a chance to make some profits" model that would address rising traffic issues. It is obvious that this approach will inevitably lead to a new round of litigation and potentially a construction stop at BBI

You are totally wrong., Investors are standing by to take the financial risk completely off the city. They take over all buildings and the complete airfield, keep it open, develope the buildings, meaning the structure stays intakt but the inside will be complete demolished and re-build state of the art. From the day the deal is closed and the papers signed, Berlin will not have to pay a penny for THF.

If THF is closed, it will be a financial burden for the city for an indefinate time to come. They cannot rent the buildings in the current shape, an imnvestor without the airflield will be hard to find and the city has no money to finance any other purpose of the field. Even if that would be possible which is not, because of the status as national monument.

Berlin is reducing it's slot capacity by 36 slots an hour. Thius is insane,m even if you can sell these 122 slots only once or twice a day, airport capacity must be laid out for peak times.

What are yopu telling potential customers? Go away, look where you can land? Will ILA go to Leipzig, with all consequences for the city and the lost revenue?

This whole political decision is absolutely crazy, no one in hois right mind would make such a decision and hold on to it when the numbers prove that you are wrong.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1993 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
You have to digest that information, in a booming industry, the capital of the world's leading export nation cuts down on accessability. I guess to be able to do that, you have to be a qualified moron.



Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 1):
Best of luck to those behind the "NEIN! Zum Flugbetrieb in Tempelhof" campaign.
Sure hope they can pull it off

I think you got it wrong. The "NEIN zum Flughafen!" campaign is the NIMBY campaign for the closure. Roughly translated thiscampaign, which is being done by the mayor tries to convince the Berliners that the airport is only good for a few rich people, in best class warfare propaganda style.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
The Seante wants to build up part of it and turn another part into a park. There is no need for appartments in Berlin, many appartments are vacant now. A park costs money to maintain, money the city does not have.

There doesn't exist ANY plan up to date what to do with either the land or the buildings after the airport has been closed. Since the Berlin wall came down, the Berlin real estate mafia has been trying to get their hand on all these acres of prime real estate inside the city, to build it up, no park there.
The open space on the other hand is very much needed for Berlin's climate.

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
besides, the airport is supposed to generate money, so the VIPs are paying to us.

Agreed, but people don´t want to understand that, other cities would die to have that but Berlin rather stays poor and thinks it is sexy this way (quote from the mayor:"Berlin is poor but sexy")
Also it is not only super-rich or VIPs flying to THF. It is the average person travelling, it is private pilot with his Cessna 152, it is the sick person in an ambulance jet etc....



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
You have to digest that information, in a booming industry, the capital of the world's leading export nation cuts down on accessability. I guess to be able to do that, you have to be a qualified moron.

What industry in Berlin? Berlin was once Germany's biggest industrial city, but except Siemens, all big companies have either gone completely or only keep their administrative headqurters in Berlin.
Berlin has a huge aged population, as well as a very high number of especially lowly educated people on the dole, who need physical jobs, like loading etc.. Berlin desperately needs jobs for all classes of the population.
The federal government has even offered to carry the additional expenses for keeping THF open, but Berlin's mayor Wovereit rejected this offer.
Most employees in Berlin work directly or indirectly for the public sector. Then the low rents and "picturesque" reputation of Berlin attract the so called "creative" professions, like advertisement companies, artists or academics of the letters fields.
They want to live in a kind of village idylle, with all the comforts of a big city.
One interesting matter is that they don't care if in future all the air traffic will be running through SXF and the people in the surrounding villages or small towns will have the noise.

One interesting thing about this plebicite is that originally the Greens and left wing parties were in favour of plebicites and direct democracy, while the conservative parties were against it, but now the leftwing mayor Wovereit declared in public that he will close the airport anyway, no matter what the outcome of the referendum is. He got even critizised within his own party and government that you can't demand direct democracy and then refuse the results if you don't like them.

Jan


User currently offlineWsp From Germany, joined May 2007, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

The preliminary results are around 60 : 40 for keeping THF open. However the minimum amount of yes votes will probably not be met (19% of total electorate estimated, 25% is required).

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1951 times:



Quoting Wsp (Reply 19):
However the minimum amount of yes votes will probably not be met (19% of total electorate estimated, 25% is required).

Radio Bremen reported in their 2000h news that about 20.8% votes YES and thus the referendum was unsuccessful.
While it is sad and probably not useful before BBI becomes operational, but anybody who wants to add flying into / out of THF to one's logs should plann to do this rather quick.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1943 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
The open space on the other hand is very much needed for Berlin's climate.

That's what I have been saying in several threads before.ITH, there is no need for appartments right now in Berlin, there are many vacancies in all price categories

.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):

What industry in Berlin? Berlin was once Germany's biggest industrial city

The booming industry is the airline industry. Read carefully what I wrote. In a time when passenger numbers rise in double percentage points, the Berlin Senate wants to cut down the number of hourly slots by 36. That is completely idiotic. No other indutry would take such actions. Not too long ago, Berlin airports had a slogan in ads and on exhibitions - 6 Runways one city. They cut that down to 2, I would not complain if BBI had three runways from the beginning, but they will never have 3.

The referendum did not reach the quorum, nevertheless it was a clear victory pro THF

There still is hope that sanity prevails and THF stays open as a thriving business airport and office park protecting and creating much needed jobs in that city.


.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

According to FAZ and Spiegel, the referendum was not successful. Sad.

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 1):
Agreed, but people don´t want to understand that, other cities would die to have that but Berlin rather stays poor and thinks it is sexy this way (quote from the mayor:"Berlin is poor but sexy")

Rubbish.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
The Berlin Senate wants to cut the accessability to Berlin by air from presently 122 slots per hour to 86 solts per houronce BBI becomes oeprational.

First time I hear that. Who said so, can you perhaps provide a link.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
The Senate (Socialist/Communist coalition wants to close down a historical monument Obvioulsy, that coalition is against freedom and THF must be a thorn oin their eyes.

Frankly that's rubbish. The current red/red coalition wants to open an Airlift museum in one of the hangars, and the decision for the closure, as mentioned above, dates back to the 90s when we had a conservative government. Add to this that you can find Nay-Sayers among alll political parties, perhaps with the exception of the liberal FDP.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 11):
If THF closes down, they'll regret it in the future.

Probably.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 11):
I don't understand this shortsightedness.

It is really not that easy. While I oppose the closure, there really are some strong arguments that support the closure of THF. The deeper you go, the more complicated it gets.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 16):
This no-campaign is just outrageous.

Yes, even many of those who support the closure said so.
But there are people from the other side whose arguments are just as hateful. Even here on a.net.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
What industry in Berlin? Berlin was once Germany's biggest industrial city, but except Siemens, all big companies have either gone completely or only keep their administrative headqurters in Berlin.

As far as I know, Siemens no longer has any production facility in Berlin.

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 1):
Agreed, but people don´t want to understand that, other cities would die to have that but Berlin rather stays poor and thinks it is sexy this way (quote from the mayor:"Berlin is poor but sexy")




I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1929 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
The referendum did not reach the quorum, nevertheless it was a clear victory pro THF

A clear victory? Maybe, but pretty useless nonetheless: the ruling coalition had said from the beginning that they'd be ignoring the result - so even a good outcome (and, let's face it, not meeting the 25% required for a non-binding is hardly a sign for a "clear victory") was bound to not change a thing.

The ruling coalition has made their mind up, those that made the decision more than a decade ago have changed their minds, Germany has seen yet another campaign harvesting the "those rich guy should get punished"-feelings that a lot of people here have... it's just another ordinary day.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
There still is hope that sanity prevails and THF stays open as a thriving business airport and office park protecting and creating much needed jobs in that city.

While I agree with the sentiment - I seriously doubt that sanity has much of a chance... not anywhere in this country, and especially not in Berlin.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1920 times:



Quoting Leskova (Reply 23):
A clear victory? Maybe, but pretty useless nonetheless: the ruling coalition had said from the beginning that they'd be ignoring the result - so even a good outcome (and, let's face it, not meeting the 25% required for a non-binding is hardly a sign for a "clear victory") was bound to not change a thing.

I think this day was set on purpose for the referendum. May1st is a public holiday in Germamy, and many people use the opportunity to take one day off (Monday) to go traveling for four days.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 23):
While I agree with the sentiment - I seriously doubt that sanity has much of a chance... not anywhere in this country, and especially not in Berlin.

I think the closure of THF is Wovereit's pet project. It reminds me very much of the closure of Meigs Field in Chicago.

Jan


25 Leskova : But then they'd have had scheduled the referendum for next week, wouldn't they? ... 1 May is still half a week away, and this was just a regular 2-da
26 Wsp : You portrayed the decision as insanity manufactured by left-wing lunatics. I just reminded you who actually decided to give up THF. You can indeed ch
27 TheSonntag : The result is deeply concerning. This has nothing to do with THF, but when you look on the results, you realise that the west has voted for THF with a
28 Wsp : This is mostly because CDU has no basis in the East and Die Linke no basis in the West. CDU made this into a political vote against the mayor and not
29 NoUFO : Correct. And to elaborate on that: Those who filed the lawsuit against the expansion of SXF, argued that noise would pose a threat to their health. T
30 MD11Engineer : My fault. Nightshift makes you loose your feeling for time. I thought today was already the 29th (hoping too, because myannual leavestarts on May 1st
31 Nosedive : Could someone tell me how BBI is to be paid for? Bonds? Taxes? If the city has a huge financial risk on BBI, then I could understand why they'd want
32 Post contains links Wsp : The city owns all the airports. However the State Brandenburg which is co-owner of BBI clearly has a larger interest to remove THF/TXL competition on
33 MD11Engineer : of course, since most jobs being created at BBI will go to people from Brandenburg. Not many people, who loose their jobs at TXL and who live in the
34 NoUFO : There's a private consortium, the two bordering states ("Länder") Berlin and Brandenburg, the federal government - and loans. It's not so much the c
35 NoUFO : Ahem, that's questionable. It's not that an employee from Berlin would have to commute for hours. More than half an hour perhaps. It's part of "Mitte
36 PanHAM : That is exactly what the city cannot do.THF can only work and pay its way as an airport. You cannot build the area up as it would be a desaster for t
37 MD11Engineer : Ok, it is ten years ago since I last lived in Berlin, when there were still the old districts. But how do you explain the "NO" in Marzahn-Hellerdorf?
38 NoUFO : Yes and now. The NYC - berlin comprison doesn't really work. Berlin is a musch greener city anyway. Correct. But I firmly believe that a solution can
39 MD11Engineer : Not really. At least one hour by car or by train (and knowing Berlin public transport from the time I lived there, there was none when my shifts star
40 NoUFO : Well those things will change somewhat as soon as the new Autobahn opens (in May this year, I believe) as well as the new railroad tracks (in a coupl
41 Wsp : I don't see that as a insurmountable hurdle. BBI offers a job in a growing sector, what's the risk of moving? The disadvantage would be that they mov
42 Nosedive : Daley lives in Chicago though
43 PA101 : Well - indeed it was a sad day for THF (I'm deeply concerned what will actually happen to the field, as all the non-aviation plans for it seem to be n
44 NoUFO : In Berlin, a referendum is not legally binding, and the major had announced previously that he would not take any steps that "endangers BBI's future"
45 TheSonntag : The legal provisions do not prohibit at all that THF remains open until BBI gets online. If you ask me, I do not understand why they close it prematu
46 NoUFO : I agree, but you need to ask Berliner Flughafengesellschaft GmbH why they insist on the closure of THF before BBI opens - other than that THF runs a
47 PA101 : Depends on the type of referendrum. If a specific law has been sent to the voters then a possible "Yes" issues a new law - and thus binding the Senat
48 MD11Engineer : Which is totallyartificial. Even when I was working in THF in the early 1990s, most of the buildings has been empty. The airport company deliberately
49 NoUFO : The fact that THF is going to be closed prematurely is a completely different case. This thread as well as the referendum is/was about the closure of
50 Wsp : Apart from these conspiracy theories the fact is that the THF closure was planned ages ago and the slow decline of aviation business there was to be
51 MD11Engineer : You sound like a spokesman of the BFG (Berlin airport company). I have been working on all Berlin airports in the 1990s. After the Berlin wall came d
52 Wsp : The city was a swamp of corruption back then. That seems much better now. Or maybe nowadays they have that minimum of decency to at least try to conc
53 MD11Engineer : This was made in the mid- to late 1990s (I would have to search for it), but rejected by the senate and airport company, since back then the private
54 PA101 : Well - a lawsuit against a changed "Planfeststellungsbeschluss" would be highly likely - however, just the changes would be a matter for the courts t
55 Post contains links Columba : Will this be permanently on display in THF: http://www.berlin-spotter.de/focus/2008/n614gb.htm
56 OHLHD : I am just about to book me a GRZ-THF ticket on Intersky. It is a must to go there before it is closed.
57 Post contains links Columba : While there take the chance of a flight with the Dc 3. It is worth the money and flying from THF with a DC 3 is an unique experience. This little com
58 OHLHD : Absolutely! Thank you for that link! I will plan it now with GRZ-THF then the DC-3 and then some beer + a Bundesliga football game.
59 Columba : Post a trip report. I was flying the Dc 3 a few weeks ago with fellow a.netter Thorben. It was very spontaneous thing and we did not bring a camera
60 OHLHD : I will! Thanks again for the link!
61 Post contains links Columba : http://www.rettet-tempelhof.de/
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