Moderators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 470 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5716 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
The news of the pending DL/NW merger has spawned many threads covering very detailed aspects of the transaction, and many forms of speculation. In the interest of keeping the forum organized and the discussions more cohesive, please add your posts in one of the 'official' threads on the subject. You will find them in the forum index with the following titles:
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Fleets & Routes
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Employees
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Regionals
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Alliances
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Airports
Please discuss Impact on Alliances in this thread.
Quite a few threads will be locked (rather than being deleted) as they may duplicate the intent of these official threads.
Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
Norcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1289 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5633 times:
Where will KLM fall in all this, since they've been in bed with NW for a while now?
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8628 posts, RR: 8 Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5592 times:
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 1): Where will KLM fall in all this, since they've been in bed with NW for a while now?
I think KL will stay just like they are for a while at least. DL has always been better with AF but now has ATI with KL. My guess is the AMS hub will be cut and A) moved to CDG or B) use the A/C for more routes out of MSP/DTW/JFK(757s)
I do find it a little funny that AF may not put any money into DL now.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Phollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5078 times:
Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 1): Where will KLM fall in all this, since they've been in bed with NW for a while now?
Wherever AF/KL wants it. the DL, NW, KL, AF transatlantic ATI will not be effect substantially by this. In fact it will be easier to coordinate beyond the North Atlantic region
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2123 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5065 times:
WIth Skyteam solidifying on this DL/NW deal and potential move of CO into Star it does bring up the question of what about OneWorld....BA and AA? Anyone seen a comparison grid of the three Alliances pre and post mergers??
Justloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4962 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 2): I think KL will stay just like they are for a while at least. DL has always been better with AF but now has ATI with KL. My guess is the AMS hub will be cut and A) moved to CDG or B) use the A/C for more routes out of MSP/DTW/JFK(757s)
I do find it a little funny that AF may not put any money into DL now.
I think dehubbing AMS would be going a little too far.
1) AMS is one of the best if not the best airport in the world.
2) CDG probably does not have the capacity to be a only hub to AF/KLM. It is also a horrible airport for the business traveler (my personal experience, shared by others I know. I can personally attest to the excellence of AMS)
3) If I was AF/KL, I would expand cargo ops there for access to the port of Amesterdam, Rotterdam, etc.
4) AMS is also a good hub for access to Russia, Scandanavia, Ukraine, etc.
DiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 783 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4961 times:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 6): If UA/CO stays in Star, any chance that US moves to OneWorld?
That's an interesting thought. In other threads, it's been theorized that AA and US should merge, but that seems a bit far-fetched to me.
On the other hand, adding US to OneWorld makes some sense, in that their North American route networks would be quite complimentary. Certainly, if CO and UA merge, US would be more valuable to OneWorld than to Star.
B747forever From United States of America, joined May 2007, 16598 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4950 times:
Now KL/AF will together with DL/NW be really strong over the Atlantic. Can we see in the future all this 4 carriers be just under one brand??
BlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4697 times:
Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 8): That's an interesting thought. In other threads, it's been theorized that AA and US should merge, but that seems a bit far-fetched to me.
If CO/UA merge...Hubs would be in EWR, IAD, CLE, ORD, IAH, DEN, SFO with Focus Cities in JFK, LAX (as far as I can see)
if US/AA merge...Hubs would be in MIA, CLT, PHL, ORD, DFW, PHX, LAS with Focus Cities in BOS, JFK, PIT, RDU, FLL, LAX
For me Its pretty clear...In both cases, that each combination has Hubs spread throughout the country....
If CO/AA merged then there would be too heavy of presence in Texas, and on the east coast....and not enough presence on the west coast. US/UA may work though, and that would be good for the Star Alliance...
I wonder whats going to happen....looks like DL/NW would definately cause a stir in Europe with KL/AF and this combination could cause a pretty heavy change in US/Europe flights especially with Open Skies in the picture.
Which leads me to question...What would happen if US/UA/LH had some sort of major partnership....
I think we'll see the three major Alliance, play a big picture in what goes on here..
Tonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1191 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4679 times:
I personally think from an alliance perspective this merger is a very nice suit.
Delta have a good agreement with Air France, Northwest is very cosy with KLM and Air France - KLM are basically the european equivalent of Delta after northwest merge with them. If anything I would say that Air France-KLM are happily rubbing their hands together excited about the potential benefits of this merger!
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10225 posts, RR: 62 Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4577 times:
Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 10): If CO/UA merge...Hubs would be in EWR, IAD, CLE, ORD, IAH, DEN, SFO with Focus Cities in JFK, LAX (as far as I can see)
If CO and UA merge, I doubt CLE will survive as a hub. It would be totally unnecessary and redundant, at a time when unnecessary and redundant hubs can no longer be sustained. If the two merge, I predict CLE would be reduced to a large spoke within five years.
And JFK wouldn't really be a focus city - it isn't now for either airline. United runs their p.s. flights from LAX/SFO to JFK, United Express runs a few flights down to IAD, Continental runs a few flights down to IAH, and Continental Express has a few to CLE (which, again, I doubt would last long).
Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 10): if US/AA merge...Hubs would be in MIA, CLT, PHL, ORD, DFW, PHX, LAS with Focus Cities in BOS, JFK, PIT, RDU, FLL, LAX
I highly, highly doubt that AA and US will be merging.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21294 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4573 times:
Quoting Tonystan (Reply 11): I personally think from an alliance perspective this merger is a very nice suit.
For Skyteam this is certainly true (especially with the recent ATI announcement), and for Star it will also be true; even without the merger, as NW/DL/AF/KL got closer and closer, having CO in Skyteam made less and less sense, and CO gives Star access to New York and much of the south central United States, two areas where it had been weak.
US arguably still benefits Star; its presence at LGA and DCA would be great for any alliance, and the combined UA/CO still isn't very strong in the southeast or southwest. Of course, much the same argument might be made for US in OneWorld. But even with UA/CO in Star, I wouldn't assume that US is gone (though there are certainly some in Star who could do without US' lousy customer service).
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102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1154 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4538 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 12): if CO and UA merge, I doubt CLE will survive as a hub. It would be totally unnecessary and redundant, at a time when unnecessary and redundant hubs can no longer be sustained.
I disagree. With ORD, EWR and IAD, as UA/CO hubs, CLE would make an ideal reliever airport.
AFKLMLHLX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4368 times:
I kind of get how abolishing hubs like CLE, CVG or MEM is suitable under one brand, but CLE for example is CO"s third biggest hub. It is very important to CO as it is one of their hubs and is fairly profitable. So why now just because they merged with UA would CLE go? It can support the service it currently has to what is the difference? CVG has already been downsized so that is a little more on the to-do list for DL, but what would happen to all of CVG's nice gate space and DL terminal? I really like the way the European airlines have dealt with mergers but it is about time in Europe for some airline to consolidate and have two different hubs in the EU like BA-IB in LHR and MAD regardless if LHR isn't in Schengen.
Now to my next question, would I now be able to upgrade on a DL flight using CO miles because of this merger?
In terms of alliances, this merger works out beautifully but the airline is too big! If they had an AF-KLM thing going on I think it would be better especially when you have two already huge airlines. US and HP had to dissolve into one name as HP was your perfect sized airline and US was a little bigger. But this just seems a little too big domestically. I wonder if some of NW's Europe flights will go.
SKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 843 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 12): I highly, highly doubt that AA and US will be merging.
Why do you have doubt? Following this DL-NW merge, might happen other soon with CO-UA. I don't think AA will remain alone while their leading competitors are getting bigger and stronger.
Merger could be a necessity to face the existing crisis having an oil barrel in $112 and a lot of worldwide uncertainty in economy.
AA757200 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4249 times:
Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 10): If CO/UA merge...Hubs would be in EWR, IAD, CLE, ORD, IAH, DEN, SFO with Focus Cities in JFK, LAX (as far as I can see)
JFK is hardly a key piece of the existing UA or CO route structure, so why in the heck would it be a focus city under a merger. Makes no sense.
Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 14): I disagree. With ORD, EWR and IAD, as UA/CO hubs, CLE would make an ideal reliever airport.
Wrong. CLE is an after thought, and would be a big focus city, nothing more.
Quoting SKY1 (Reply 16): Merger could be a necessity to face the existing crisis having an oil barrel in $112 and a lot of worldwide uncertainty in economy.
How does a merger protect an airline from the impact of high oil prices? If anything, they have to buy more fuel, for more planes, so it would in fact, increase a merged airlines exposure to high oil costs. Mergers do nothing to address this.
102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1154 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4144 times:
You're probably right, it's not like EWR and ORD are congested or anything. Yeah, I'm sure they will just dump a perfectly located reliever airport and let the LCC's dominate the CLE market.
AA757200 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 156 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4098 times:
Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 18): You're probably right, it's not like EWR and ORD are congested or anything. Yeah, I'm sure they will just dump a perfectly located reliever airport and let the LCC's dominate the CLE market.
Spot on. Nice to see you have come around. In case you have not noticed, the times have changed, and the concept of maintaining a reliever airport, just does not make any financial sense. Look, in a merger, you have to right size your redundancies. CLE, much like MEM, is clearly redundant, and will be gradually downsized to a big focus city. Feel free to call it a reliever airport, whatever that means, but it is going to be a focus city, IF CO takes leave of its senses, and merges with UA. Talk about going home from the bar with the fat girl at 2am.
ExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4089 times:
The DL/NW merger makes it more likely CO will move to Star, whether or not they merge with UA.
Which makes US's membership in Star less and less necessary (from the perspective of the rest of Star.) So US could be better off moving to OneWorld or going it alone.
Could even see JetBlue's relationship with LH becoming some sort of "associate membership" in Star, making US even less necessary for the rest of the allliance.
Cageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4018 times:
Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 20):
Which makes US's membership in Star less and less necessary (from the perspective of the rest of Star.) So US could be better off moving to OneWorld or going it alone.
I'm guessing if US doesn't merge with AA, that they'll just drop out of any Alliance. I'm pretty sure given the current management, they don't value the alliance and would rather just work out codeshares with airlines they want.
US and CO both seem to not really care too much about alliances like some of the other large airlines do.
ExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3950 times:
Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 21): US and CO both seem to not really care too much about alliances like some of the other large airlines do.
Agreed, but I do think CO values it enough to consider hopping to Star. And if they do merge with UA, it's a foregone conclusion...I'd think Antitrust Division would be likely to make it a requirement of a CO/US merger, or at least remove most, if not all, antitrust exemption that allow for codeshare between CO and DL/NW currently in place.
One other consideration - I think that the combination of this merger, the DL/NW/AF/KLM trans-Atlantic alliance, and Open Skies makes it likely that DOJ will finally sign off on full antitrust exemption between BA and AA on the trans-Atlantic routes, a plus for OneWorld and a major headache for Sir Richard Branson.
Yamatthey From Switzerland, joined Aug 2005, 56 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3908 times:
DL/NW will definitely stay with SkyTeam, with a strong partnership with AF/KL (key player in America).
CO was never a good alliance player (member of SkyTeam, but thinking like a stand alone airline), CO will leave SkyTeam ASAP maybe to join Star Alliance even before a merge with United (if any).
In case of a merge between CO and UA, definitely Lufthansa will do everything possible to keep this new operator under Star Alliance.
US will certainly never merge with AA and never be member of oneworld, but BA AA will obtain a full antitrust exemption.
US and JetBlue will "maybe" working closer (no merge) under the control of Lufthansa (LH is already involve on JetBlue).
LH is looking to invest... maybe into CO/UA, US/JetBlue, CO/UA and JetBlue, only JetBlue??? I think LH will be more involve into CO/UA than AF/KL into DL/NW, maybe I'm wrong.
BlueElephant From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3896 times:
Quoting Commavia (Reply 12): And JFK wouldn't really be a focus city
Quoting AA757200 (Reply 17): JFK is hardly a key piece of the existing UA or CO route structure, so why in the heck would it be a focus city under a merger. Makes no sense.
Sorry Guys...please disregard...for some reason I though JFK had a lot of International UA flights....
25 SKY1: No. I think you're wrong. Why does airlines sometimes look for a merger, then? Two airlines which make a merge, when that merge is done, you have a b
26 Burnsie28: There isn't a chance that AA can merge with anyone the size of US. DL/NW and CO/UA are going to create large airlines, AA and US would create far to l
27 Yamatthey: Look like no question possible concerning the new Delta and SkyTeam: http://www.newglobalairline.com/
28 AA757200: Wrong again. A merged NW/DL won't get any measurable savings by having what you perceive as a "bigger power" to negotiate lower prices. Airlines don'
29 Aisak: He didn't say that, and I don't think he intended to say that. OK, fuel is high. And It's high if you are 2 airlines or a merged one. But a merger ca
30 STT757: CO has issued their Official reaction to the DL/NWA announcement. First of course as a result of the announcement CO now will buy back the Golden Shar
31 Yamatthey: No doubt, Continental will say good-bye and leave SkyTeam as soon as possible, but what will happen with KLM codeshare agreement across Europe (flight
32 NYC2theworld: Won't be needed if your codeshare with LH out of FRA and MUC.
33 Glareskin: I definitely hope CO will continue to offer EWR and IAH flights from AMS. Gives us Dutch Star fans more direct flights to the US from AMS!
34 StarAlliance38: Oh no no no! First of all, UA will never leave Star, an alliance they helped establish. US is fairly tight with Star as a whole, but follows UA! That
35 STT757: Absolutely, especially IAH-AMS which connects Shell Oil Company's Headquarters in Houston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Oil_Company with Royal D
36 GlobalDude: USAir was paired up with BA pre AA and the conception of One world if memory serves me right
37 SKORD: My knowledge is limited so please forgive me, but with all this major changes about to happen, what do you think will happen to SAS? They are Star All
38 Cubsrule: They were. In fact, IIRC, they still pay for a gate and lounge space at PIT.
39 Justloveplanes: Who is a prospective Star Alliance partner out of Heathrow? CDG? I wouldn't count Skyteam out Just yet
40 Yamatthey: Nothing will happen to SAS. Air Canada, SAS, Thai, United and Lufthansa were the founder members of Star Alliance. If Continental joint Star Alliance
41 Yamatthey: Out of LHR, BD is not the best Star Alliance member. VS would be perfect. VS member of Star Alliance using BD slots at LHR to extend his network...
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