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Official DL/NW Merger: Impact On Airports  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 513 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17500 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The news of the pending DL/NW merger has spawned many threads covering very detailed aspects of the transaction, and many forms of speculation. In the interest of keeping the forum organized and the discussions more cohesive, please add your posts in one of the 'official' threads on the subject. You will find them in the forum index with the following titles:

- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Fleets & Routes
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Employees
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Regionals
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Alliances
- Official DL/NW Merger: Impact on Airports

Please discuss Impact on Airports in this thread.


Quite a few threads will be locked (rather than being deleted) as they may duplicate the intent of these official threads.


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
263 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3308 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17520 times:

Despite what the release on http://www.newglobalairline.com says, we can expect CVG and MEM to ultimately be on the chopping block. They expect $1 billion in annual synergies without the hub closures, but those synergies will be even greater with those two hubs cut. MEM and CVG offer very little high-yield O&D traffic, but rather they enable their respective airlines to offer rock-bottom low-yields for connecting traffic all while maintaining the inherent increased CASM of making a connection.


.......
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7759 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

I do think that with this merger things wont be quite so ATL-centric. With more options for hubs to start flights, why should everything go to ATL by default.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineBAGoldEx From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17429 times:

I know the new style here is to rule with an iron fist but did you guys take one second to look and see there is another thread discussing essentially this exact topic?

User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17392 times:

I am interested to see what happens at smaller stations.

FAR for example, as of May 1st, will only have NW with service to MSP. Speculation and wishful thinking as it seems, hopes to see a frequency drop to MSP, with a pick up of ATL or DTW, and perhaps a SLC return once the merger is complete.

GFK also has only MSP service, and according to the GFK Airport, they have enough demand for increase service. Time will tell!


User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 17338 times:

I think PHL will be an interesting scenario as far as gates are concerned. US would absolutely love to DL move its operations over to terminal E (where NW is currently operating). But, Terminal A has more room for the combined carriers.

LAX should be very interesting as well. Currently DL is in T5 and NW/AF/KL are in Terminal 2. Should be interesting to see what happens here.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17239 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 2):
I do think that with this merger things wont be quite so ATL-centric. With more options for hubs to start flights, why should everything go to ATL by default.

DL isn't just about ATL now. JFK and ATL gets new routes all the time.

The one that will really do well here is LAX. I would bet that LAX will become Delta's newest hub. Along with LAX-Asia i would bet on more DTW,ATL and JFK Asia flights. I would also guess that the next China rights they go for will be ATL-PEK. Then Starting DTW-PEK and LAX-PVG with there NRT flights. I can see NRT becoming what GUM is to CO. Adding the small city's in Asia that can't be done from LAX or that wouldn't make money.

I don't see NRT lasting to long as a hub. It is making money but barely. LAX will become the main Asia hub but ATL,DTW,JFK will get major city's in Asia.



yep.
User currently offlineSwalifebtw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17177 times:

Well I hope when NW moves over to Term 5 with DL, US moves to Term 2 allowing WN to have all of Term 1

User currently offlineTWAmbassador From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17154 times:
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LAX is going to be difficult and costly no matter how they do it. I think it would make more sense for Delta to move a combine operation into T2 and T3 and share this with other Skyteam airlines. Alaska would fit nicely in T5 along with many of the other carriers currently at T3. (Frontier/Air Tran/Sun Country/Spirit/Midwest) There would still be space in T2 for current tenants and the revenue stream that provides. T3 would need major work done at some point and redesigned so they can connect between terminals without going outside security but this is at least feasible. There is also plenty of ticket counter space that uses a common area between the two terminals. This would give the combined operation the space they need.

Not sure how else they would manage this. The widebody operations of NW/AF/KL make moving over to T5 impossible. T6 is able to handle widebodies but I don't see UA giving up these gates anytime soon.

This will be interesting to see how it plays out... but guaranteed to be messy and a customer service nightmare.



Up Up And Away...
User currently offlineSwalifebtw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 17137 times:



Quoting TWAmbassador (Reply 8):



Quoting TWAmbassador (Reply 8):
LAX is going to be difficult and costly no matter how they do it. I think it would make more sense for Delta to move a combine operation into T2 and T3 and share this with other Skyteam airlines. Alaska would fit nicely in T5 along with many of the other carriers currently at T3. (Frontier/Air Tran/Sun Country/Spirit/Midwest) There would still be space in T2 for current tenants and the revenue stream that provides. T3 would need major work done at some point and redesigned so they can connect between terminals without going outside security but this is at least feasible. There is also plenty of ticket counter space that uses a common area between the two terminals. This would give the combined operation the space they need.

Not sure how else they would manage this. The widebody operations of NW/AF/KL make moving over to T5 impossible. T6 is able to handle widebodies but I don't see UA giving up these gates anytime soon.

This will be interesting to see how it plays out... but guaranteed to be messy and a customer service nightmare.

That will never work. AA tried that with Term 3 and Term 4 operations after buying RenoAir.


User currently offlineCO777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17124 times:

SNA: NW was at Terminal 1 (West) and DL was at Terminal 2 (East). You might be seeing some A31*s next to CO at gate 11.

IAH: No change. Both are at terminal A.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17094 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 6):
LAX will become the main Asia hub but ATL,DTW,JFK will get major city's in Asia.

Its just not possible. LAX has so much competition that is entrenched there that there just isn't any way to focus efforts there and get a satisfactory yield.

United has an extensive domestic network as well as an entrenched Asian hub, not to mention facilities and aircraft. Even AA would be quick to respond and are better equipped to do so.

Further, the facilities at LAX will not support Delta growing to the size necessary to support an Asian hub. There's not gate space nor immigration desks to do it.

DL's capitalization on Asian markets will be point to point to their existing hubs, or expanding NRT feed to more point-to-point US cities. They can command the markets from DTW, ATL, SLC, etc and feed them with passengers to make up for the lack of O/D, and get good yields.

NS


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6844 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17045 times:

Well at EWR Terminal B-1 is already DL and NW, so I'd imagine that they would lease the whole wing to themselves. They will have a substantial amount of operations and probably the second biggest carrier surpassing AA.


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17027 times:



Quoting Swalifebtw (Reply 9):
That will never work. AA tried that with Term 3 and Term 4 operations after buying RenoAir.

The difference in this case is that Terminal two and three are next to each other vs three and four, which AA used for a time after the TWA takeover, have the parking structure in between them and are a pain to get between airside and land side. Using multiple terminals at LAX seems to work well as long as the two terminals have a physical connection between them which would be possible between two and three. Of course this would mean that DL would have to give up T5 which should be able to absorb all of the domestic and some of the international carriers based in T2 and T3.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4304 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16875 times:

I would venture to say that NRT-JFK is almost certainly coming back. NW pulled out of the market last year, but given DL's huge JFK presence, as well as the NRT hub for NW, this route will almost certainly be brought back and I think can make money this time around.

In BOS, the combined carrier will certainly end up in A, with the AMS flight being towed over from E. This will leave some empty domestic gates in E for someone to move in. Two thoughts come to mind. Virgin America, which clearly has BOS on their future map. A longshot that I don't see happening, but they have surprised me lately, Southwest.

With CVG, I could actually see this further downgraded, and I can also see AA, UA, and US being relocated to terminal 3, which would be the only terminal left in the airport and the other terminals can face the wrecking ball.

Only other thing i wonder, at ORD. does NW move to the L concourse or does DL move to Terminal 2. There is no additional gate space in either place, and I don't see AA giving up gates in L, or anyone in E giving up gate space. Maybe if a CO UA merger happens then they can combine in 2 with the CO gates, but who knows.


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 720 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16819 times:

There is no longer a reason for CVG or MEM to remain. Of course both managements will say they won't be affected, but it is inevitable that both hubs will take drastic cuts. I give it 12 months before Air Tran, jetBlue, and Southwest are in each of those cities.

User currently offlineNuone97 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16738 times:

Here in ALB........Delta has two gates with jetways (B5 & B7) and one without (B4). Northwest has one gate (A4). The ticket counters are right next to each other. Delta is handled by Delta employees inside and the ramp is handled by Delta Global. Northwest is handled by Mesaba which means that they will more than likely lose their jobs being that they are not actual Northwest employees. During bankruptcy, Northwest closed a large number of its mainline stations and put in contract regional workers.

Delta has 4 flights to ATL using CR7's (70), 3 flights to CVG using CRJ (50) 2flights to JFK usinf 1 CRJ (50) and one ERJ (50).

Northwest has 1 flight to MSP using CRJ ( 50 ), 3 flights to DTW using one CRJ (50) and a mixture of DC9's and A320's


User currently offlineCrjfixer From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16642 times:

I think MEM and CVG are important and will stay or at least one of the two. MEM for example is one of the cheapest airports to operate out of, and could be used to lighten the load out of ATL which already has very long taxi times.I think they will use theese hubs for the regionals to serve smaller cities in the US.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5559 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16552 times:

In SAN, NW is an outsourced station with about 5-7 flights (depending on the season and whether MEM is op'ing or not), currently using up to 3 different (mostly shared) gates in T2E (also the location of their ticket counter.) The Delta operation (complete with a Crown Room) is located in T2W, running about 14 daily departures out of about 4 (mostly shared) gates. The 2 separate operations today have a combined 9 RON a/c!

I would expect, until such time as CVG and MEM are de-hubbed anyway, that the NEW Delta will operate somewhere in the 20-flight neighborhood and will live in T2W (the current DL home) and probably use the same DL gates as they currently do (38-41), perhaps with less "sharing" than is presently the case. (I could envision maybe B6 and even HA moving from T2W to the current NW space over in T2E thus giving the new Delta operation almost exclusive use of gates 38-39-40 and 41. The Crown Room is, I believe, between gates 37 and 38.

I would like to think that within a few years, and assuming the Dreamliner ever actually flies (and DL still is a customer?!), Lindbergh Field would see at least some moderate growth by Delta, including some int'l flying as well as perhaps some increased domestic service (maybe even heading back to Hawaii?)

bb

[Edited 2008-04-15 03:43:58]

User currently offlineTeneriffe77 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16430 times:

Here in SYR I can see NW moving to the north terminal where there is plenty of room on the end of the concourse where DL is and B6 taking over the former NW gate because B6's current gate waiting area can get cramped in particular when there is a delay.

User currently offlineJawake From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16433 times:

In a CNN article, it says...

"Delta said the carrier will maintain the nine hubs of both airlines in the United States, Europe and Asia, serving more than 390 destinations in 67 countries."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/14/news.../delta_northwest/index.htm?cnn=yes

What are the 9 hubs?

NRT
DTW
MSP
ATL
SLC
MEM
CVG


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3651 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16332 times:



Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):
I would venture to say that NRT-JFK is almost certainly coming back. NW pulled out of the market last year, but given DL's huge JFK presence, as well as the NRT hub for NW, this route will almost certainly be brought back and I think can make money this time around.

Yeah, but the NRT hub itself is eventually going down. A lot of NW's traffic to/from Tokyo was native Japanese, and this is the equivalent of, say, JAL being taken over by Air Do in the Japanese mindset. I think it'll be a while before Delta admits it and cuts their losses there, but I just don't see the market there reacting well to this. Delta is not unknown there and it is not particularly well liked.

I don't see why JFK-NRT couldn't be profitable, as it is for other airlines, but you don't need a hub at NRT for that.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineBriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16322 times:

ATL
CVG
JFK
SLC

MSP
MEM
DTW

NRT
AMS



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineSacamojus From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 228 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16301 times:

What about DL's MCO operations with all those RJs? Could we see DL's MCO flying only be to their hubs?

User currently offlineDesertAir From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 1474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 16286 times:

NW has a small operation here in Tucson. One daily flight to MSP with a second seasonal flight during the winter months. DL has two mainline flights to Atlanta and DL Connection flights to Salt Lake City and LAX. I doubt the merger will change much. Both NW an DL use the same terminal.

25 STLGph : There will be quite the large presence in Indianapolis.
26 Tjwgrr : I agree CVG and MEM will eventually be on the chopping block like AA did with STL. Delta will promise no hub closures in order to get the deal approv
27 Jawake : that why asked about the 9 hubs. That an BOS, I thought that was a hub. IND & BOS, how do they fit?
28 GSPSPOT : SEA as an Asia hub?? They have a good bit of the S satellite terminal at SEA, and a long history of Asia (and now Europe) flights. Plus, on the Great
29 PSU.DTW.SCE : Well DTW is easy in terms of operations - other than the massive amount of signage & branding that will need to be changed. On the plus side, other th
30 DiscoverCSG : As somebody already posted, add JFK and AMS to the list.
31 ABXX75 : I don't think that LGA will have no problems with the merger because both DL and NW are in the same terminal. I would love to see how DL and NW employ
32 STLGph : not very different than it already is now? Indianapolis isn't really a hub. most Northwest traffic is local with the exeption of services which also
33 LuiePL : Let's not forget DL used to be in Terminal E, so I don't see them going back if they're the main airline in the merger. I would think NW would go to
34 TN757Flyer : Despite what management says now, CVG and MEM are very redundant in a combined route system and there is really no need for them to remain as hubs, o
35 Post contains links Humberside : MCO, BOS and also LAX are listed as focus cities for DL. IND and SEA for NW. So in the short term at least they should remain focus cities. Longer te
36 Allstarflyer : It probably won't, but, IMO, the transatlantic flying will reapportioned at least a little more towards DTW - that would allow for easier internation
37 B747forever : Would love to see them expand at LAX. Can they be bigger than UA you think???
38 ORDagent : Both DL and NW have comparatively small ops here at ORD. I've got a feeling that they will probably keep the L concourse and drop the gates in termina
39 Humberside : This is what they say about LAX on the new global airline website So they sound comitted to sizeable LAX operations. But bigger than UA, I would doub
40 B747forever : Even if they wont be bigger that UA now, they will for sure grow and will threat UA.
41 Apodino : Actually, UA has control of most of F. AC has E1, UA has a couple of E gates but not many. CO and NW have most of the E gates, and US has two gates i
42 Catdaddy63 : Currently TUL has only CR2 service to ATL, DTW, MEM, MSP, CVG, and SLC. DL has three gates at the north end of Concourse A , NW has one gate at the so
43 N908AW : As far as Midwest airports go- RST+DLH-- No Delta - probably no change, though I think there's always a possibility of adding an ATL run or two, or ev
44 USAirALB : Yes as KstateinALB said in _Merger: How The DL/NW Terminal Will Effect Your Airport. Quote :No problem for ALB, NW would move over to Concourse B, lea
45 STLGph : I'd say Indianapolis will stay as is. The airport is seeing as much service as it is now considering the mileage-co share and current marketing agree
46 COERJ145 : FAR loses their SLC flight in May.
47 DeltaRules : As I said yesterday, CMH will be interesting gate-wise, with DL (C53-56) and NW (B35-36) at complete opposite ends of the airport. I could see DL movi
48 YWG747 : All we get here areon NW to MSP on DC9's or 320's. DL I beleive flies CRJ's to ORD. Both routes are probably just 2 or 3 times a day, but that I am no
49 USAirALB : As NWA will probably move into Concourse B in ALB it would be nice if CO could move in their as well so we can get all the Star Alliance carriers into
50 Chase : I hope you're right. IND is now primarily O&D for NW, but they do have some connections through here. I'm wondering if that will continue. For instan
51 PhaetonFell : Expect to see focus shift away from MCO. DL was moving away from that market anyway, particularly as leisure travel starts to suffer. Based where I a
52 Post contains links Aaway : To LAX a.netters and other interested observers, some of the original discussion of the potential impact of DL/NW @ LAX is here: http://www.airliners.
53 USAirALB : DL has always like BDL. Will they add a flight to LGW and FRA?
54 PSU.DTW.SCE : DEN - will likely have things stay the same since there are not any available gates in C. The operations are basically adjacent to each other on the e
55 Post contains images Mikey711MN : I think MKE could get interesting. It makes a lot of sense for DL/NW operations to be consolidated in E (E62-E69, to be precise), which would then hav
56 PanAm330 : Perhaps this is one of the reasons we saw DL close the SEA CRC. They'll likely move all ops in SEA to the NW gates (since they operate international f
57 KingAir200 : Nobody's brought up GRR yet, so I guess I'll take care of that. NWA uses gates A-2, A-5, and A-6, although 6 is technically divided into two gates for
58 Ckfred : I read on another thread that the gates on L that AA subleases from DL are locked up through 2014. Considering the number of flights that NW runs thr
59 Incitatus : At this point Delta at CVG is about the same size as they were at DFW in 2004, the year before they shut down the hub. Unless the new company has a s
60 B767300ER : As previously stated FLL will one of the more interesting airports to watch, DL is a zoo now and can't possible handle the added NW flights without a
61 YULWinterSkies : I can foresee troubled times at MEM, CVG, and either DTW or MSP. That would leave ATL, DTW or MSP, JFK, SLC (?), and minor operations at SEA and LAX a
62 MSYtristar : Well, in MSY, the combined DL/NW will serve 9 cities nonstop. I'm thinking DL may in fact upgrade the NW service on MSY-DTW and/or MSP....I'm hoping s
63 EXAAUADL : No NWA only brings in NRT to LAX for DL. Adding NW doesnt make DL more competitive on any existing doemstic route they currently fly or would like to
64 Flyingcat : B6 is constrained by ORd slots not by gate space. Although if they had more slots they would need gate space but acquiring more gates is useless in s
65 Lightsaber : Very interesting and as already noted, a tough political issue. Until I see how the alliances (in another thread) play out, we won't know how this im
66 EXAAUADL : MEM is the most vunerable...gounding the DC-9s and closing MEM will probably go hand in hand. You have a useless fleet and a useless hub..kill both q
67 Commavia : Agreed. While I can't access the stats at the moment - the LAX website won't load on my computer - I believe that even if combined, the "New Delta" w
68 SLCUT2777 : A SLC-GRR flight might happen in this merger scenario. There will certainly be increased mainline only service to both MSP and DTW. GRR-SLC would cer
69 Tjwgrr : IMO terminal A at GRR will become all Skyteam. Midwest Connect may get the boot and head over to B4 freeing up A4. A1 A2 A3 A4 A5 & A6, (A6 having tw
70 Travelin man : This is interesting information. I knew that NW has an ownership stake in T2 at LAX, but I didn't know the details. I wonder if DL could maintain the
71 EXAAUADL : Adding DL to NW doesnt really increase traffic to DTW and MSP so why would there be an increase in capacity there? I can see perhaps ATL-GRR getting
72 Post contains links Stlgph : it's under state information for newglobalairline.com http://newglobalairline.com/states/indiana/
73 Chi-town : What can I expect to see at BMI and MDW now?
74 AirFRNT : I would expect that NW + DL may end up dropping a gate, and some of it's main terminal space as a part of the consolidation. Note that the service to
75 Mauiman31 : At smaller MCI the merge should be easy. . . lots of open slots (and the way things are going -- we might have even more, if YX cutsback or goes away.
76 Falcon84 : CLE There's no doubt if the dance continues, and CO/UA do merge, that NW and UA will swap gates, with NW moving over with DL on Concourse B, and Unite
77 Beertrucker : Now yes I do see downsizing in the markets of MEM and CVG but remember Delta does not have a whole lot of room to grow as in flights in and out of ATL
78 ArcrftLvr : As someone pointed out above, NW has a financial stake in T2, so I don't think they have any choice but to move to T2, unless the new DL sells off th
79 Burnsie28 : Denver: Each airline has 3 gates on the C Concourse, of which they both use constantly. The only problem is that these gates are seperated by the main
80 EXAAUADL : trust me , its gone and is a good way to fund a massive Dc-9 retirement
81 Commavia : I'm not sure if it will be enough to save CLE. I'm sure the New United/Continental will take the money and run, and keep the hub for a few years to p
82 Falcon84 : The love-fest of hating on CLE continues.
83 ArcrftLvr : I forgot to add Air Jamaica, AeroMexico, and China Eastern to the list that would move to the combined T2/T3. For those keeping score at home, all oc
84 JetBlueGuy2006 : For Lansing, I see a couple changes. With CVG probably closing, I could see them add extra compacity to DTW, or maybe one more MSP flight. This might
85 Commavia : Oh, come on, this has nothing to do with loving or hating any city, airport or hub. This has to do with market reality. Chicago is one of the largest
86 ArcrftLvr : They only occupy T5.
87 Travelin man : T5 currently handles DL and CZ's 777s (and it used to handle AF's 744), so why are you saying it couldn't handle NW's one daily 744 to NRT?
88 Anonms : They have one gate in T6.
89 EXAAUADL : i do think CLE is more likely to survive than CVG as a hub, becasue of constraints at ORD. Now given that , I do thinka UA/CO combination would resul
90 DiscoverCSG : That's a good idea, but how much space is there in T2/3? I haven't studied the gate situation there in any detail, but it would seem that 31 gates (t
91 ArcrftLvr : I may have the times screwed up, but NW's 744 would be occupying the gate from 9:15am-12:55pm, CZ's 777 would occupy the gate from 10:50am until 1:00
92 Bmacleod : MEM would be a good choice as a second main hub as ATL is squeezed to the limit or very close to their limit. CVG looks like it will shut down. DTW an
93 WorldTraveler : This is a great day for DL and NW; as I have repeatedly said, this is a merger of addition, not subtraction. Neither airline would have been able to d
94 Bobnwa : Why should we trust your statement. What special insight do you have into the MEM situation.
95 Jfk777 : ITs time LAWA to take a wrecking ball to T3 and build a new ONEWORLD or addition to the Bradley International terminal. IT is an embarrassment that L
96 ArcrftLvr : Plus the limited amount of widebody gate space does not allow for further expansion of long haul routes, especially if they want to grow the West Coa
97 Commavia : WorldTraveler: I am in complete agreement with you that this is, absolutely, a good day for Delta and Northwest, and indeed for the entire industry.
98 Incitatus : Your statement makes no sense. NW is a midget at LAX. If DL wanted to acquire an airline to build LAX into a "global gateway" [[ oh, my head spins...
99 LAXdude1023 : I dont think he will. LAX is a tough nut to crack. DL tried and failed with its most recent efforts. NW brings nothing new to the table except a flig
100 Briboy : Air Canada is a part owner of LAX Two Corp, so I can't see them going anywhere... -Brian
101 Cageyjames : Why LAX over SEA? If I was expanding on the west coast, it would be there over LAX given the competition in LA.
102 ArcrftLvr : Not unless they can make money by leasing the gates back to DL/NW?? Could be a possibility. I assume they would move to T6/T7?
103 EXAAUADL : 100% correct..yields stink and you have to do business with shady ethnic consolidators
104 RwSEA : Excellent analysis. I have my doubts about LAX as well. I think most telling is that it isn't being mentioned as one of the "hubs" of the new carrier
105 FlyPNS1 : Which is a load of marketing BS. They've already said that the combined carrier will have fewer employees than the two carriers individually would ha
106 ArcrftLvr : Can you elaborate on this please?
107 Commavia : Absolutely. Anderson and Steenland are doing the song and dance for Washington to get the deal to go through. I think it is quite likely, if not cert
108 Commavia : That I partly disagree with. I think that Tokyo will no doubt continue to play a huge role in the fortunes of the "New Delta" in Asia. It will contin
109 EXAAUADL : Korean, Phillipino consolidators who do business mostly with PR, KE, etc...they offer very low fares and have tendency to play with fare rules and in
110 Burnsie28 : DEN doesn't see DC-9's, from NW it only sees (currently) 320's, 3 757's, and 3 CRJ's.
111 Chase : I've no expertise/info on what will happen to the routes, aircraft, etc. But EXAAUADL's point makes perfect sense from the point of view of headquart
112 Incitatus : A lot of speculation on merger reaction from other airlines is going on. I wonder if Southwest will announce Memphis service soon. That would be an od
113 Jetlanta : Completely, absolutely, 100% off-base. I'll summarize just a couple of reasons why. 1) MEM is NW's most profitable hub on a margin basis at it's curr
114 Cubsrule : One thing we haven't talked about is the impact on smaller airports in the south where the combined NW and DL will significantly increase its market s
115 EXAAUADL : MEM is done.
116 LAXintl : Good luck on that. While this might be a "merger of addition", neither airline is much of a player in LAX in the big scheme of things so not much to
117 Therock401 : Speaking of SEA: My guess is the south satellite for the combined entity, but I don't know if there are enough unused gates out there to handle the co
118 Cubsrule : Why is MEM post-merger different from CVG pre-merger?
119 EXAAUADL : they are likely to both close.
120 LAXdude1023 : Ok, that analysis makes much more since, then trying to turn LAX into DL's "Global Gateway". SEA would be a great market for them to turn for flights
121 Cubsrule : CVG pre-merger, not post-merger.
122 AirFrnt : I really don't think that being separated by the main area will have that much impact, certainly not enough to justify forcing AA to move. DEN is exp
123 DTWAGENT : Here in DTW DL/NW are in the same terminal. NW is in the A and C concourses. DL and CO are in B concourses. So it would mean the DL will take over the
124 RwSEA : And I think that's the plan. I would expect DTW and maybe JFK to see the most expansion, however, with MSP and ATL less so. I also think though that
125 Bobnwa : Again, we should just trust you on this, because you say so?
126 ArcrftLvr : Interesting. So, I guess that precludes them from ever re-locating their gates to T7 or T8...
127 Falcon84 : How is CLE an "artificlal" hub? I don't understnad that. You have a base of 2 million people in what is now known as the Cleveland-Plus region, with
128 Commavia : And remember this: all those "gate holdings" won't last for long. There is absolutely no way whatsoever that the "New Delta" is going to be able to m
129 Cubsrule : I buy that, but largely because DTW is under capacity. ATL is not, and that would seem to indicate that DL needs MEM, at least for the time being.
130 Commavia : Not at all. Most of the flying at Memphis is RJs any way - 3-4 flights per day per route. That sort of minimal capacity could easily be shifted to AT
131 Cubsrule : DL's philosophy, whatever it's worth, seems to be that customers throughout the southeast prefer more capacity on smaller aircraft. Outside of Florid
132 FlyPNS1 : You're forgetting quite a few....CHS, SAV, MSY, ORF. Not to mention smaller markets like JAN, SDF, GSP, CAE, MOB, GPT, HSV where DL has a decent mix
133 KstateinALB : I personally see an increase in mainline flights to ALB in the future. ATL should see some MD88's and A319's. DTW should increase to all mainline, in
134 Phollingsworth : Detroit is not a great market, yes it is larger than CVG by a fair bit, but economically it is doing worse than the CVG region. CVG's problem is that
135 Sampa737 : Even if a Delta hub is not long-lasting, I think it really cool how Delta will once again rule in Memphis. The city was one of Delta's original hubs t
136 Commavia : Again, the Old Delta had no choice. The New Delta does.
137 MEMbase : Where are they going to get all these extra MD80s and 737s from? And what happens to all the RJs currently used at MEM?
138 Ikramerica : I don't think WN is going to get all of T1 no matter what. But I could see US moving and airlines like HA and VX coming in, leaving most of the termi
139 TWAmbassador : LAX (continued) Don't forget NW/KL 1x 744 daily to AMS. Also AF is going to be a major player in the merger and they are already in T2. 1x daily to LH
140 Burnsie28 : Yes everyone take it from the 13-15 yr old that MEM is done!
141 MAH4546 : It is, and so is CVG. Give it 3-4 years. Let's not forget about how well Pittsburgh and Las Vegas fared following the US/HP merger, which originally
142 PhaetonFell : I'm just as inclined as the next guy to assume that the "no hub closures" and "no involuntary frontline furloughs" is just another way of saying "no h
143 Commavia : Using all these airlines' (Delta, Northwest, Air France and KLM) current schedules, plus those of Aeromexico, Air Jamaica, and Hawaiian, I was able t
144 Joeman : VEY Well said Falcon84!!!!!
145 YULYMX : Why not BOS as a Hub for DL-NW, Delta use to have a hub in BOS before CVG... NW got some operation in BOS... for NE BOS would be perfect and DTW would
146 Commavia : The level of O&D traffic between Cleveland and places like Rochester, Ottawa, Birmingham, and Des Moines - to say nothing of dozens of other smaller
147 FlyPNS1 : I think what many people fail to see in a CO/UA merger is that much of CLE's capacity wouldn't shift to ORD, but would instead go to IAD. Most of the
148 Lightsaber : No argument there. I think both small hubs will become "focus cities." I also agree with you 100% here too. Someone else will come in and fill the vo
149 DocLightning : 1) DL has a hub at JFK 2) AA has a hub at BOS Any further questions?
150 YULYMX : DL JFK hub is for international travel BOS could be like CVG... to ATL, west coast... FLA and some Europe Route... 25 yrs ago Boston was a delta HUB
151 Falcon84 : Wrong. The CITY has shrunk, and drastically, but the Metro area is still about as big as it was 30 years ago. About 2 million people in the Cleveland
152 Incitatus : Sorry but #1 is irrelevant. The right measure to determine if the hub should be closed is overall company profitability with the hub open compared to
153 Carpethead : Well if the Japanese government had an ounce of balls, they tell the new Delta & DOT, no more 5th freedom rights this time around. Well kidding aside.
154 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : ASE Will we see the return of MSP-ASE service?? Skywest CR7 maybe HDN I think we will see weekday reductions at either ATL or MSP because one of those
155 Jetlanta : I guess you should define "done". I'm saying that there is no intention to close the MEM hub anytime in the current plan. Events could certainly play
156 LAXintl : Sure, now that Delta agreed to back pay several years of rent and agreed to accept the new LAWA rental rates. However LAWA's case to evict Delta for
157 Aaway : Technically, yes. As outlined by the LAX TWO agreements, a LAX TWO member would first have to request withdrawal from membership. Should the request
158 Joeman : FYI: The percentage of non O&D Co CLE traffic is always routed as 60%. I wonder what that of ORD or ATL is.
159 Ikramerica : It is a matter of domestic hubs and international hubs. If you look at CLE for CO, it is basically a domestic hub. It is used to connect the midwest
160 SmAlbany : I would love it if you were correct, but isn't merger mania about reducing numbers of seats and maximizing profitability? I don't see how this merger
161 Incitatus : That in itself does not matter, assuming it is correct as with the current fuel price very little of the US domestic flying is profitable. A business
162 Burnsie28 : Agreed, keep in mind there are very few DC-9's based in MEM anymore. Pittsburgh was basically gone before the merger and Las Vegas was never a huge d
163 Phollingsworth : I think I get what you are saying but the word choice is confusing the issue. A business will reallocate capital resources if the reallocation will p
164 TN757Flyer : ATL probably in all likelihood won't see much, if any growth out of this. Yes, DL is pretty well maxxed out there, but with the new international con
165 Ikramerica : I hope it works out. I'd love to see DL moved to T2 and T3 with NW and airlines like NZ, AC, HA, AS and others move over to T5-T6. AC + HA could use
166 United_Fan : Any ideas on how ROC will fare. Over the past few years we lost DL mainline,then it came back. We lost NW mainline for a few months then it just came
167 Post contains links NADC10Fan : Well, let's take a look and think about it. Delta inhabits Terminal 2, Concourse D, sharing it with Midwest (D9), Allegiant (D3) and Air Canada (D4),
168 WingnutMN : I see MSP like this. DL gives up its 3 gates on the E concourse and just utilizes some of NW many gates. All regional jets (Comair, Skywest, ASA) now
169 Post contains links AviationAddict : Quoting DocLightning (Reply 149): 2) AA has a hub at BOS BOS is no longer a hub for anyone. AA has significantly downgraded it's presence there over t
170 Gigneil : I remain VERY interested in DCA. Northwest owns one metric fuckton of slots. DL a good number as well, although many of them they lease from NW. There
171 LH423 : The majors are quite content to let B6 and FL run roughshod over BOS while they quietly retreat into their existing hubs. While the economy since 200
172 Ocracoke : I think most are missing the point with regards to CVG. Yes, the "hub" at CVG will go, but no, CVG itself will not shut down, nor will it become just
173 Chi-town : Does this mean BMI will no longer see the Northwest daily to DTW with the Saab340?
174 DiscoverCSG : Well, it's not that simple. ORD will soon have three parallel landing runways available in almost all conditions, like ATL.
175 DLflynhayn : LAX T6,DL actually has gates 61 63, in the early 1990's we had almost half of that terminal,we even had a little break room for the rampers,mechanics,
176 Ikramerica : "You" aren't getting those back. You have 61, 63, shared access to 65 and 67A,B. VX also has 67A,B access, as does CO to 67B. CO also has shared acce
177 Cubsrule : I wonder if there's a cost argument for continuing to route some connections over MEM. There's no question that it's a far, far lower cost airport th
178 Ikramerica : i think MEM v. CVG is a bigger problem. I see the value of one of them as relief to ATL and DTW, connecting smaller cities around the region to wester
179 Cubsrule : Agreed, in which case the question becomes which is better: CVG's larger local market or MEM's lower costs and better location.
180 Dalb777 : Would it be possible that when NW moves to Concourse D with DL, FL and ExpressJet move to Concourse A, and CO moves over to Concourse C, giving DL/NW
181 Incitatus : Not necessarily. Say DL/NW closes MEM and keeps the schedule at ATL the same. They should see marginally higher load factors in ATL. Even if they don
182 SANFan : And I don't think anyone at LAWA will even be starting to seriously think about moving airlines around for at least a year, hopefully after the curre
183 MAH4546 : It's just media BS that Delta and Northwest put out to please the Cincinnati and Memphis beacon councils. You can't honestly believe this merger is a
184 KstateinALB : Well, it is. However, having the extra aircraft would allow ALB to recieve some mainline. The ATL flights have on and off been mainline for years, as
185 Ikramerica : Well I'm sure they are seriously thinking about it already. But they won't start DOING it until 2009. For one thing, the DL+NW merger needs to happen
186 Cubsrule : One might argue that MEM serves Louisiana, Arkansas, and much of Texas much more effectively than any other hub can. It's skewed, but DTW and MSP do
187 NWAESC : This is a something a lot of Red Tailers are very proud of (okay, at least I am). Winter Ops-at the stations we still staff-is an area in which we sh
188 DiscoverCSG : Except that there would be no hub in the central time zone (i.e. the middle of the country). Currently, the only major carriers in this position are
189 Airbazar : In all the posts regarding this merger one thing I have not seen discussed is the future status of the NRT hub. IIRC, NW and UA have their hubs there
190 Cubsrule : How does the agreement define "incumbent?" They could simply keep the NW certificate around and operate a limited number of aircraft on it. It's not
191 Ikramerica : Would DL really want anything more than the NRT slots, the NRT gates and 5th freedom rights anyway? As long as all flights get a tag where they contin
192 Ckfred : But rememeber that in the 90s, DL used to fly only 757s, 767s, and L-1011s between ORD and ATL, and even had a few 767s going out of ORD to CVG. If C
193 Therock401 : As well you should be. MSP and NW wrote the book on bad-weather operations.
194 Post contains links SLCUT2777 : I think there will no doubt be a first and foremost effort to eliminate all MDD aircraft from the combined fleet prior to seeing any Airbus equipment
195 Post contains links Blackknight : SLCUT2777 I am amazed at the refusal by most to see what is right in front of everyone. I have been giving glues of the merger for over a year. Check
196 WorldTraveler : I don't expect LAX to be another ATL or even comparable to what UA has at SFO. However, the market, airplanes, and gate space are there to fly to at
197 Post contains links Travelin man : LAX is also one of the best in terms of ontime departures (#5 in the nation vs. SLC's #1): http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_..._tables/2007_11/htm
198 Anonms : It transferred to UA when they bought PA's assets. Why can't it transfer to DL?
199 LAXintl : The PA to UA transfer required Japanese government approval (as did the UA/AA LHR deal from PA/TW). As I recall to get Japan's approval the DOT had t
200 MEMbase : Delta just reported 85% domestic load factors for March. Northwest reported 87%. These numbers do not suggest a need to cut seats. We can talk endles
201 Ikramerica : March had Easter. What were their LF's for February and January?
202 SLCUT2777 : Which is my point. I see perhaps an NRT flight in a few years and that's it.
203 MEMbase : DL: 75% January and 77% February, both records. NW: 79% January and 82% February.
204 RyeFly : The name of the game is to cut expenses from the combined carriers to be most profitable. I am by no means an expert on this so don't flame me for it
205 Aaway : LAWA has had some idea of 'who-it-wamted-where' since 2004 when it commissioned a study of gate utilization at LAX. The problem executing such plan l
206 Gigneil : Minneapolis is in the central time zone and is no more out of the way than Houston as a cross-country and midwest hub. NS
207 ERJ170 : One thing about that, though.. American did own the hub until about 2003. However, it was not a contract that they could not get out of. RDU wanted t
208 FlyPNS1 : Except for the fact that both DL and NW are losing money as we speak. The planes are full, but the fares aren't high enough to offset the skyrocketin
209 JetBlueGuy2006 : With all due respect..... there those aren't "facts" until the merger is approved by the feds and the 787's arrive in DL colors. A lot of people seem
210 Gigneil : That, and SLC will make a lously transpacific gateway, and it would be a super poor use of rare 787 resources. NS
211 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : The only reason AA added the NYC flights was to make its corporate contracts happy with non-stop flights
212 DiscoverCSG : That's 100% true. When I wrote that, I was responding to SANFan's suggestion that MSP could be closed with no great loss to the new-new DL:
213 DC9RHI : I'm going to use this rule of thumb (I just made it up) -"If the biggest plane your airline operates doesn't currently serve your hub, you're not much
214 Cubsrule : Much of that was for overnight m/x at ORD, though. They had a 762 and a 752 or two overnight every night as recently as 3-4 years ago.
215 LH423 : Yeah, but the old adage around here is "load factors don't necessarily equal profit." That's great that DL and NW had LFs in the 80s, but if they're
216 Cubsrule : How do you know that right-sizing capacity in the southeast can be done without any hub whatsoever at MEM? Seems like a mighty haughty assumption to
217 Airbazar : Not necessarily. There is such a thing as domestic hubs and international hubs. Look at LH for example. They don't operate 747's from MUC and they su
218 Gigneil : LOL, what? There are no 747s to Amsterdam for NW either, does that mean it should shut? SLC is going to be important to the new airline. They NEED it
219 RyeFly : Exactly because they owned that terminal it was easy for them to leave whenever they wanted. Maybe I didn't make that clear in my previous post. It w
220 DC9RHI : Yes it is. But it kind of has a ring of truth to it. I'll concede DEN may currently be an exception to this. BNA and RDU both had no 777 or DC-10 bef
221 Travelin man : RDU had (and has) the daily AA 777 to LHR (used to be LGW). US Airways does not even operate the 777 so asking if US operated one into PIT is a very
222 SLCUT2777 : DEN sees many UA 777s to LHR and HNL amongst others. As for your de-hubbing argument about SLC, I think your evidence is full of holes. When you look
223 Bobnwa : As has been discussed many times on this board, the rights are transferable and will be transferred. Look at PA and UA
224 DeltaRules : As said above, US doesn't have 777s, but they did run A330s into PIT for a few years. Also, CVG saw 777s to CDG until IIRC, last summer. It might hav
225 Post contains links Skibum9 : LH423, you seam pretty sure of yourself. I would agree with your conclusion if this merger were to save costs via subtraction. However, there are man
226 WorldTraveler : DL and NW both specifically stated in their merger press conferences that all of NW"S international route authorities can be transferred to DL. You t
227 MAH4546 : You make valid points, but I won't "admit" anything. I still believe Memphis and Cincinnati will not be hubs come around 2012, and I'll stick with it
228 Commavia : That's the political song and dance they're giving to the D.C. crowd in order to get them to okay this deal. Both Cincinnati and Memphis have been we
229 WorldTraveler : if they can do the song and dance and make money, then do so. again, go back and reread here and other DL merger threads that I have written. DL will
230 Commavia : Absolutely. That's been my point all along. I have said from the beginning that this merger was a positive for the industry. I think it is going to b
231 DiscoverCSG : DL only flies to AMS seasonally??? I understand, and agree with, what you're saying. However, can 752's reliably fly CVG-Europe with a meaningful pay
232 LH423 : Of course. None of us really are. But logically speaking, MEM and CVG will be pulled down to focus cities. They are completely redundant. Where can y
233 Airbazar : Uh? Where did you get that from? I was just asking. Besides, see reply 199. The merger has not yet been approved and the Japanese government has not
234 FlyPNS1 : The airline industry is already disliked in Washington, so closing those hubs won't change the airlines political standing once the deal is done. Whi
235 VictorKilo : Last night I looked at the third quarter O&D figures out of Cincinnati, and based on those, Delta could maintain a flight schedule out of Cincinnati
236 Commavia : I, personally, don't know about 50-100, but I could definitely envision flights to major O&D centers like such: Cincinnati 10x ATL 3x BOS 10x DTW 2x
237 Jetlanta : For the record, ATL is the lowest-cost hub in the U.S. at about $4 per enplaned passenger. Bigger is cheaper when you don't build the Taj Mahal.
238 BinMonster : Many people run down CVG as a European gateway. The Hub is done, or has been done since it was right sized. Or DL will de-hub CVG. However the most p
239 Post contains links PhaetonFell : http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.../20080418/BIZ01/804180349/-1/CINCI You want to take everything with a grain of salt, and understand that now is
240 Post contains links BlackKnight : SLC in 2005 had over 11 million O&D traffic. The 2008 numbers are close to 13 million. These are the facts. SLC is unique in the fact that is serves S
241 BlackKnight : Don't look know but those whom think DL and NWA will not have enough 787's to make SLC an Asia gateway should check out Flightbloogers new posting (DL
242 Anonms : Well, most of SLC's Asia traffic would have to be connecting passengers from the east coast; there's no way west coast O&D passengers would be willing
243 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : MSP is needed for the middle of the country but not at the levels it is now. I think we will see the NWA dominated markets such as FAR- MSP which has
244 Jetlanta : Sorry my friend, but you are simply wrong. The thing about all of the comments on here from posters about what hubs are needed or not and at what lev
245 Travelin man : Well, 11M puts SLC a little above SNA in terms of O&D. Well, dream big, I guess.
246 Post contains links MEMbase : Very similar article in today's Memphis newspaper... http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...18/airport-touting-its-advantages/ Article mentions some
247 Post contains links SLCUT2777 : Anderson similarly has been hitting the trail here in SLC today. Utah's Governor Jon M. Huntsman Jr. made it clear to him that he expected the combin
248 TN757Flyer : In two years, the politicos representing MEM and CVG will have other issues on their plates. Besides, what are they going to do, force DL to maintain
249 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I dont doubt that MSP is very profitable but im sure alot of that profit is connecting passengers that can be connected thru more options now. Of cour
250 MCOAviationFan : I believe it was Mr. Bastian who stated recently that a decision on the JFK facilities would be announced this summer. Of course, this was said prior
251 WorldTraveler : yes and the industry will be even more different 2 years after the merger is approved. because when you pull the schedule down to serve just the loca
252 DeltaL1011man : You are close.....DL's 200 plan said add to T4 where T3 would be and add 10 gates to T2. Now that was when A)DL wasn't as big in JFK and B) BOS was g
253 R2rho : There's one thing that seems to be ignored here: airport capacity. From a logical business sense point of view, yes, two merged carriers should close
254 Commavia : Then so be it. It's better than operating marginal and high-cost RJ hubs simply to prevent other carriers from becoming dominant. I'm not so sure. I
255 BinMonster : Sorry WorldTravler I did not check the statue of limitations for posting factual information or seeking your approval. I thought, I the use of the ab
256 MSYtristar : MEM has some incredibly low O&D figures, with only 22 cities seeing 100+ pax/day. Where's the logic in DL keeping service from MEM to more cities than
257 FlyPNS1 : You're thinking of CVG from a few years ago. Today, there are very few markets with more than 3 flights a day and most of those are other DL hubs/foc
258 Cubsrule : I still don't buy this logic, though. Where can you go from STL that you can't go from ORD? I'll answer that question: ORF, SPI, and IAD. STL remains
259 Planefxr : NRT is a key piece of this merger and is anything but a weak link. The new combined airline will be able to right size equipment in and out of NRT, j
260 Phelpsie87 : ATL, MSP, and CVG are all seasonal cities for EGE. Not only that, but MSP and ATL only have 1x daily flight anyway, so if they are going to reduce se
261 MAH4546 : 4x daily EGE-ATL?!? That's not happening. EGE is very well served to the Southern U.S. as is, with daily ATL, 3w MIA, and 1w CLT.
262 FalconBird : I find it also interesting that NW just announced and started new/additional RJ service to/from MEM to LEX and new seasonal service scheduled to begin
263 Phelpsie87 : The "perhaps" is there for a reason. Keep in mind, the situation where we would see 3-4x to ATL is if they stop flying to CVG and MSP. So yes, they c
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